[Year 12 SofDev] RE: sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17
Kevork Krozian
kevork at edulists.com.au
Thu Mar 6 18:32:58 EST 2008
Hi Mark,
I know your degree is in English and Psych but for how long have you been a
network manager ?
and how /when did you learn programming ?
Kind Regards
Kevork Krozian
Edulists Creator and Administrator
www.edulists.com.au
kevork at edulists.com.au
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Kelly" <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
<sofdev at edulists.com.au>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17
>I have a BA in English and Psych - does that count?
>
> It would be really helpful to know what PD audiences really wanted to
> hear. Perhaps VITTA could pre-test people signing up for PD to find what
> 'favour' they want the PD to be. e.g. "Networking facts" vs "How to teach
> networking".
>
> I remember at the start of the 2003 study design I suggested to VITTA that
> teachers needed to be taught networking theory rather than how to teach
> networking to kids, and it was a big hit.
>
> Without the knowledge of what an audience really wants to hear, I often
> have to guess and try to cover 3 areas of interest in one long, fast
> presentation, hoping to satisfy everyone at least part of the time*.
>
> Even teacher PD is a mixed ability classroom :-)
>
> Mark
>
> * the story of my love life :-(
>
> Kevork Krozian wrote:
>> Hi Theresa,
>>
>> Thanks for your honesty in stating it is ok to admit not to know the
>> technical stuff and this from someone with an info systems degree. Do all
>> our SD teachers have a degree in the area ?
>> And if you are not comfortable with the technical stuff - do I
>> understand
>> VPN, client server, WAN technologies, and more here? -- then how many
>> more without quals feel even less comfortable ?
>> I concur with your sentiments about the breaking down of the study
>> design
>> with little specificity being of little value. Yes, the VITTA CD has gone
>> a long way to addressing the lack of specific sample work but there have
>> been some quality assurance issues related to this.
>> Futhermore, there is no point in everyone doing the same VITTA sample
>> SAC from the CD. It is just repeating the problem using a different
>> source.
>>
>> Keep well
>>
>>
>> Kevork Krozian
>> Mailing List Administrator
>> kevork at edulists.com.au
>> www.edulists.com.au
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> In regards to the present topic, I have a degree in Information systems
>>> and am confident with teaching the theory of Systems analysis and
>>> design, but feel nervous with some of the technical stuff because it has
>>> changed so much in the past five years since I last taught IS so I
>>> signed up to the recent VITTA workshops. I was dissapointed with the
>>> workshops, which basically did no more than break down the Study design,
>>> something I can do myself. I feel that some more specific PD for
>>> networking, modelling and even programming - like building programs for
>>> portable devices would really be more helpful.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Theresa Gate
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of
>>> sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>>> Sent: Thursday, 6 March 2008 11:42 AM
>>> To: sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>> Subject: sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17
>>>
>>> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
>>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>>
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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>>>
>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
>>> "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Re: Why aren't teachers able to write their own material ?
>>> (Kevork Krozian)
>>> 2. Re: Copyright / authorship / solutions / ?? (Mark Kelly)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 11:32:07 +1100
>>> From: "Kevork Krozian" <Kroset at novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au>
>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Why aren't teachers able to write their
>>> own material ?
>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>> Message-ID: <47CFD635.EE3E.0095.0 at novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15
>>>
>>> Hi Adrian and Mark,
>>>
>>> Very good points but more broadly a symptom of a wider problem we
>>> keep avoiding.
>>> If teachers are not confident about assessing a topic ( to say nothing
>>> about teaching it effectively ) then we need to address this issue.
>>> I know we are all overworked but if we are teaching a class we need to
>>> be fair to the students and ourselves.
>>>
>>> In reality if you are not an active network manager or Cisco
>>> instructor, you would struggle to understand networks and maybe not know
>>> a bus network even if you were run over by one.
>>>
>>> I know VITTA and the VCAA almost do miracles ( not least in their
>>> active and meaningful support of Edulists and PD ) but why are teachers
>>> unable to write their own SACs with confidence and conviction and with
>>> solutions they can show others ?
>>>
>>> I would say because the training and the need for new and current
>>> training has not kept up with the demands of the course(s). What do we
>>> do about this ?
>>>
>>> I think we need to stop patching these problems with band aids and need
>>> to go up the tree (DEECD, the new Rudd govt. initiative or wherever else
>>> we need to go) where there is decent and proper funding to deliver
>>> updated courses and training rather than doing it on the cheap.
>>>
>>> I don't want to drag down decent hardworking teachers doing the best
>>> they can with what little they have - I want to lift them .
>>>
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts
>>>
>>>
>>> Kevork
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au> 6/03/2008 8:28 am >>>
>>> Good points there, Adrian. I have a gut feeling that people feel rather
>>>
>>> more intimidated writing SD outcomes than they do ITA. It's that much
>>>
>>> more complex.
>>>
>>> In a similar vein, I've just finished writing a commercial practice SD
>>>
>>> exam and it took much more thinking than the equivalent ITA exam.
>>>
>>> Adrian Janson wrote:
>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is a potentially tricky issue - and as one who often posts his
>>> SAC
>>>> and theory materials to the lists - one that I must confess is a bit
>>> of
>>>> a concern.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Speaking personally, when I post my materials to the lists - I would
>>>> like to think that those who are making use of them do so in the
>>> spirit
>>>> in which they have been posted - giving credit where it is due and
>>> not
>>>> altering things with a view to reposting them. I think the part of
>>> this
>>>> that is the most worrying is that some material did find its way back
>>> to
>>>> me which I had originally authored and posted to the lists - but with
>>>> another teachers name on it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It may well just need to be the case that when we post materials to
>>> the
>>>> lists, we need to state (in the document as well as in the attached
>>>> email), that the materials are free to use but may not be adapted or
>>>> changed in any way without the permission of the author*. As I put
>>> the
>>>> finishing touches on my 2008 SAC1 - I may well do this before I post
>>> it
>>>> to the list? I would be interested to know what others think of
>>> this?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On another note - something which has been bothering me a great
>>> deal.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> After the review process took place last year and schools had the
>>> SACs
>>>> and Assessments checked by VCAA - it became apparent that a large
>>> number
>>>> of the sampled schools had used my SACs (more than half). Of the
>>>> remaining schools, many had used the VITTA SACs. After posting the
>>> SACs
>>>> to the lists, I had many requests for solutions which I tried to
>>> provide
>>>> as best I could. I don*t mind doing this - however, I think this
>>> seems
>>>> to suggest that there are few SD teachers creating their own original
>>>> materials and/or solutions.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now - I don*t mind doing the work and posting it for everyone to
>>> use. I
>>>> think doing this is especially valuable to those starting out with
>>> the
>>>> SD course or with programming in general. However, if you are
>>> familiar
>>>> with the SD course - I think that you could be doing your own
>>> students a
>>>> disservice by not writing your own materials and solutions (and hence
>>>> becoming more familiar with the assessment criteria and the structure
>>> of
>>>> the course). In such a circumstance, I think it would be more
>>>> appropriate for you to use my SAC materials (or any others that are
>>>> posted) for practice SAC materials and / or inspiration for your own.
>>>> There is no way I can prevent teachers from simply using my own (or
>>>> others) work as a method of minimising their own workload - however,
>>> I
>>>> would implore those engaging in this practice to think of the bigger
>>>> picture.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Adrian Janson
>>>>
>>>> VITTA President
>>>>
>>>> Director of ICT, Melbourne High School
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Poultney,
>>> Gordon A
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 5 March 2008 12:13 PM
>>>> *To:* Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We are talking about a 2 page SAC here, not the latest from Neal
>>>> Stephenson...
>>>>
>>>> Feel free to do what you want with Shagadelic - just don't put my
>>> name
>>>> on it if you change it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you believe in copyright/credit , then Ross' simple attribution
>>>> scheme looks good.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> gordon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------
>>>>
>>>> Gordon Poultney
>>>>
>>>> Horsham College
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Stephen Digby
>>>> *Sent:* Wed 5/3/08 11:31
>>>> *To:* 'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'
>>>> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>
>>>> What about a simpler attribution such as
>>>>
>>>> Freds Carpet House v6 "Based on SAC by Mark Kelly 2007. Alterations
>>> by
>>>> Stephen Digby 2008, Gordon Poultney 2008"
>>>>
>>>> Just as the ridiculous copyright laws reduce the likelihood of
>>> attribution
>>>> (less likely to get caught for copyright violation if you remove all
>>> info
>>>> re. source).
>>>>
>>>> A overly complex attribution process may reduce the likelihood of
>>> sharing.
>>>> As it is, most resources that I have are not able to be shared
>>> because of
>>>> copyright (i.e. they are not mine to share)
>>>>
>>>> Lets develop a 'creative common' approach to as much materials as
>>>> possible....
>>>>
>>>> ====================================================
>>>> Stephen Digby, Learning Technology Manager
>>>> mailto: digby.stephen.p at edumail.vic.gov.au
>>>> Cheltenham Secondary College www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au
>>>> Ph: 613 955 55 955 Fx: 9555 8617 Mb: 0431-701-028
>>>> ====================================================
>>>>
>>>> I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. Winston
>>>> Churchill
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
>>>> On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2008 10:15 AM
>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List; Year 12 IT
>>>> Applications Teachers' Mailing List; Year 11 Information Technology
>>>> Teachers' Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>
>>>> (I've X-posted to the ITA and year 11 IT lists. Apols in advance.)
>>>>
>>>> I see an interesting and potentially worrying point developing here.
>>>>
>>>> If we adapt other people's tasks, I think we are obliged to retain
>>> the
>>>> version information contained in the task and note ourselves as
>>> modifiers
>>>> and let that info stay with the document in its further travels.
>>>>
>>>> I know I would be horrified if a task I created was later 'improved'
>>> by some
>>>> anonymous person, thereby damaging it or (even worse) rendering it a
>>>> violation of VCAA rules - with my name still proudly stuck on it as
>>> if I
>>>> were solely responsible for its current condition!
>>>>
>>>> When we distribute 'adapted' tasks, I recommend that we:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Of course, retain the original author's identity and document
>>> version
>>>> number, if they are in the document. Give the poor authors credit
>>> for their
>>>> labours!
>>>>
>>>> 2. Add yourself to the credits as a 'modifier'.
>>>>
>>>> 3. Maybe even summarise your changes (and reasons?) in an addendum at
>>> the
>>>> end of the document. This addendum can be removed for printing
>>> purposes by
>>>> people who use it later, but it otherwise travels with the document
>>> as it
>>>> morphs through the ether.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Mark
>>>>
>>>> Poultney, Gordon A wrote:
>>>>> i made up the original 'Shagadelic' which sounds like it has
>>> morphed
>>>> into something else. There is only 1 network diagram in the original
>>> - for
>>>> the new system .there is/was a marking scheme and complete network
>>> diagram
>>>> for the teacher too.
>>>>> cheers Gordon
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------
>>>>> Gordon Poultney
>>>>> Horsham College
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Maggie Iaquinto
>>>>> Sent: Wed 5/3/08 9:14
>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ross
>>>>>
>>>>> Ross
>>>>>
>>>>> If you were using this practice SAC as the actual one, it would be
>>>>> difficult to separate the marks for Task 1 (systems analysis and
>>>>> design
>>>>> - mistakenly called Task 2 here) from Task 2 (network diagram).
>>> You
>>>>> are required to report the marks for the tasks clearly and
>>> discretely.
>>>>> Task 1 is 40 marks and Task 2 is 10 marks -- based on 50 for the
>>>>> Outcome.
>>>>> In the assessment sheet nearly 25 marks of the 50 are devoted to
>>> the
>>>>> network diagram. This makes it tough to report accurately to VCAA
>>> just
>>>>> what your students have received, in terms of the balance of
>>> 40/10.
>>>>> Task 2 (network diagram) must be for the proposed new system and
>>> this
>>>>> document requires the student to diagram the current and the new.
>>>>> Sure, you can do that but it isn't necessary.
>>>>>
>>>>> I notice also that there are marks given to presentation of the
>>> report.
>>>>> IMHO I would put those marks into a more finely-grained assessment
>>> of
>>>>> all the other Key Skills required in this Outcome.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just an opinion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maggie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2008 8:36 AM
>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>
>>>>> If the task extended across the holidays, make sure the remaining
>>> part
>>>>> is not given to them beforehand so they can't pre-produce stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>> Claudia Graham wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Ross,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Re the practice SAC not sure who's that is so can't help there
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regarding the use of the internet not something I have done or
>>> would
>>>>> do,
>>>>>> for me it would be too hard to 'patrol'. But as long as all
>>> students
>>>>>> have the same conditions it doesn't matter (mind you I don't have
>>> a
>>>>>> study design or assessment hand book beside me to check re
>>>>>> conditions)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Same for the time frame, I assume you mean a lesson or two prior
>>> to
>>>>> the
>>>>>> holidays and then some after (or similar), not something I would
>>> do
>>>>> just
>>>>>> for authentication purposes. I would do it all in a few lessons;
>>> I
>>>>> don't
>>>>>> even like weekends between assessment lessons if I can help it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Claudia Graham
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Overnewton College
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Keilor
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --
>>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Ogilvie,
>>> Ross
>>>>>> A
>>>>>> *Sent:* 4 March 2008 7:50 PM
>>>>>> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>>>>> *Subject:* Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In regard to SD I have a couple of questions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. I have given my class a **Practice SAC** called **Shagadelic
>>>>>> Carpets** (refer to attachment) (hope the author is OK with
>>> this).
>>>>>> My
>>>>>> question is....does anyone have the solutions so I can check if I
>>> am
>>>>> on
>>>>>> the right track.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. When I give my students the actual SAC:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i. Can/should they access the internet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ii. Would there be a problem (in Vic) if the SAC extended
>>> through
>>>>> the
>>>>>> Term One holiday period into Term Two.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kindest Regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **Ross Ogilvie **
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **LSF ICT Leader **
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **Sunbury**** College**
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **30 Racecourse Rd****, Sunbury 3429**
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **Ph (W) 9744 1066 **
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ** (H) 54272843**
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **Bookmarks: http://del.icio.us/Ross1956**
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **Wiki: http://ross1956.wikispaces.com/**
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>> --
>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>> --
>>>> Mark Kelly
>>> --
>>> Mark Kelly
>>> Manager - Information Systems
>>> McKinnon Secondary College
>>> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia Direct line / Voicemail:
>>> 8520 9085 School Phone +613 8520 9000 School Fax +613 95789253 kel AT
>>> mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>>
>>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au IT Lecture notes:
>>> http://vceit.com
>>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>>
>>> You'll know when we are officially a civilised race: our schools have
>>> all the money they need and the Air Force has to run a chook raffle to
>>>
>>> buy a new bomber.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>> Authority and
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 11:36:38 +1100
>>> From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Copyright / authorship / solutions / ??
>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>> Message-ID: <47CF3C96.1000409 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> Ah - I didn't notice you were chasing SD stuff... I assumed it was ITA.
>>> I don't know if there are SD QATs. Your best bet is to check the
>>> VITTA resources. There are SD SACs there.
>>>
>>> I will attach the U3 outcomes I used last year, which were approved by
>>> VCAA during their audit of my material.
>>>
>>>
>>> Fatima Nazar wrote:
>>>> Hello Mark,
>>>>
>>>> I have looked into QATs and even sent them an email (no reply as yet)
>>> about SD - I am brand new to SD and would LOVE to even buy some SACs
>>> with suggested solutions as I would then know what can be an excellent
>>> answer :) so let me know if you have some up your sleeve please
>>>> Regards
>>>> Fatima
>>>> (have 2 SD classes)
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>
>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Mark Kelly
>>>> Sent: Thu 3/6/2008 8:28 AM
>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Copyright / authorship / solutions / ??
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good points there, Adrian. I have a gut feeling that people feel
>>> rather
>>>> more intimidated writing SD outcomes than they do ITA. It's that much
>>>> more complex.
>>>>
>>>> In a similar vein, I've just finished writing a commercial practice SD
>>>> exam and it took much more thinking than the equivalent ITA exam.
>>>>
>>>> Adrian Janson wrote:
>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a potentially tricky issue - and as one who often posts his
>>> SAC
>>>>> and theory materials to the lists - one that I must confess is a bit
>>> of
>>>>> a concern.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Speaking personally, when I post my materials to the lists - I would
>>>>> like to think that those who are making use of them do so in the
>>> spirit
>>>>> in which they have been posted - giving credit where it is due and
>>> not
>>>>> altering things with a view to reposting them. I think the part of
>>> this
>>>>> that is the most worrying is that some material did find its way back
>>> to
>>>>> me which I had originally authored and posted to the lists - but with
>>>>> another teachers name on it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It may well just need to be the case that when we post materials to
>>> the
>>>>> lists, we need to state (in the document as well as in the attached
>>>>> email), that the materials are free to use but may not be adapted or
>>>>> changed in any way without the permission of the author.... As I put
>>> the
>>>>> finishing touches on my 2008 SAC1 - I may well do this before I post
>>> it
>>>>> to the list? I would be interested to know what others think of
>>> this?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On another note - something which has been bothering me a great deal.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> After the review process took place last year and schools had the
>>> SACs
>>>>> and Assessments checked by VCAA - it became apparent that a large
>>> number
>>>>> of the sampled schools had used my SACs (more than half). Of the
>>>>> remaining schools, many had used the VITTA SACs. After posting the
>>> SACs
>>>>> to the lists, I had many requests for solutions which I tried to
>>> provide
>>>>> as best I could. I don't mind doing this - however, I think this
>>> seems
>>>>> to suggest that there are few SD teachers creating their own original
>>>>> materials and/or solutions.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Now - I don't mind doing the work and posting it for everyone to use.
>>> I
>>>>> think doing this is especially valuable to those starting out with
>>> the
>>>>> SD course or with programming in general. However, if you are
>>> familiar
>>>>> with the SD course - I think that you could be doing your own
>>> students a
>>>>> disservice by not writing your own materials and solutions (and hence
>>>>> becoming more familiar with the assessment criteria and the structure
>>> of
>>>>> the course). In such a circumstance, I think it would be more
>>>>> appropriate for you to use my SAC materials (or any others that are
>>>>> posted) for practice SAC materials and / or inspiration for your own.
>>>>> There is no way I can prevent teachers from simply using my own (or
>>>>> others) work as a method of minimising their own workload - however,
>>> I
>>>>> would implore those engaging in this practice to think of the bigger
>>>>> picture.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Adrian Janson
>>>>>
>>>>> VITTA President
>>>>>
>>>>> Director of ICT, Melbourne High School
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Poultney,
>>> Gordon A
>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 5 March 2008 12:13 PM
>>>>> *To:* Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We are talking about a 2 page SAC here, not the latest from Neal
>>>>> Stephenson...
>>>>>
>>>>> Feel free to do what you want with Shagadelic - just don't put my
>>> name
>>>>> on it if you change it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you believe in copyright/credit , then Ross' simple attribution
>>>>> scheme looks good.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> gordon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Gordon Poultney
>>>>>
>>>>> Horsham College
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Stephen Digby
>>>>> *Sent:* Wed 5/3/08 11:31
>>>>> *To:* 'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'
>>>>> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>
>>>>> What about a simpler attribution such as
>>>>>
>>>>> Freds Carpet House v6 "Based on SAC by Mark Kelly 2007. Alterations
>>> by
>>>>> Stephen Digby 2008, Gordon Poultney 2008"
>>>>>
>>>>> Just as the ridiculous copyright laws reduce the likelihood of
>>> attribution
>>>>> (less likely to get caught for copyright violation if you remove all
>>> info
>>>>> re. source).
>>>>>
>>>>> A overly complex attribution process may reduce the likelihood of
>>> sharing.
>>>>> As it is, most resources that I have are not able to be shared
>>> because of
>>>>> copyright (i.e. they are not mine to share)
>>>>>
>>>>> Lets develop a 'creative common' approach to as much materials as
>>>>> possible....
>>>>>
>>>>> ====================================================
>>>>> Stephen Digby, Learning Technology Manager
>>>>> mailto: digby.stephen.p at edumail.vic.gov.au
>>>>> Cheltenham Secondary College www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au
>>>>> Ph: 613 955 55 955 Fx: 9555 8617 Mb: 0431-701-028
>>>>> ====================================================
>>>>>
>>>>> I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. Winston
>>>>> Churchill
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
>>>>> On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2008 10:15 AM
>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List; Year 12 IT
>>>>> Applications Teachers' Mailing List; Year 11 Information Technology
>>>>> Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>
>>>>> (I've X-posted to the ITA and year 11 IT lists. Apols in advance.)
>>>>>
>>>>> I see an interesting and potentially worrying point developing here.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we adapt other people's tasks, I think we are obliged to retain
>>> the
>>>>> version information contained in the task and note ourselves as
>>> modifiers
>>>>> and let that info stay with the document in its further travels.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know I would be horrified if a task I created was later 'improved'
>>> by some
>>>>> anonymous person, thereby damaging it or (even worse) rendering it a
>>>>> violation of VCAA rules - with my name still proudly stuck on it as
>>> if I
>>>>> were solely responsible for its current condition!
>>>>>
>>>>> When we distribute 'adapted' tasks, I recommend that we:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Of course, retain the original author's identity and document
>>> version
>>>>> number, if they are in the document. Give the poor authors credit
>>> for their
>>>>> labours!
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Add yourself to the credits as a 'modifier'.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. Maybe even summarise your changes (and reasons?) in an addendum at
>>> the
>>>>> end of the document. This addendum can be removed for printing
>>> purposes by
>>>>> people who use it later, but it otherwise travels with the document
>>> as it
>>>>> morphs through the ether.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark
>>>>>
>>>>> Poultney, Gordon A wrote:
>>>>>> i made up the original 'Shagadelic' which sounds like it has
>>> morphed
>>>>> into something else. There is only 1 network diagram in the original
>>> - for
>>>>> the new system .there is/was a marking scheme and complete network
>>> diagram
>>>>> for the teacher too.
>>>>>> cheers Gordon
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------------
>>>>>> Gordon Poultney
>>>>>> Horsham College
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Maggie Iaquinto
>>>>>> Sent: Wed 5/3/08 9:14
>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you were using this practice SAC as the actual one, it would be
>>>>>> difficult to separate the marks for Task 1 (systems analysis and
>>>>>> design
>>>>>> - mistakenly called Task 2 here) from Task 2 (network diagram). You
>>>>>> are required to report the marks for the tasks clearly and
>>> discretely.
>>>>>> Task 1 is 40 marks and Task 2 is 10 marks -- based on 50 for the
>>>>>> Outcome.
>>>>>> In the assessment sheet nearly 25 marks of the 50 are devoted to
>>> the
>>>>>> network diagram. This makes it tough to report accurately to VCAA
>>> just
>>>>>> what your students have received, in terms of the balance of 40/10.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Task 2 (network diagram) must be for the proposed new system and
>>> this
>>>>>> document requires the student to diagram the current and the new.
>>>>>> Sure, you can do that but it isn't necessary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I notice also that there are marks given to presentation of the
>>> report.
>>>>>> IMHO I would put those marks into a more finely-grained assessment
>>> of
>>>>>> all the other Key Skills required in this Outcome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just an opinion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maggie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2008 8:36 AM
>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the task extended across the holidays, make sure the remaining
>>> part
>>>>>> is not given to them beforehand so they can't pre-produce stuff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Claudia Graham wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Ross,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Re the practice SAC not sure who's that is so can't help there
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regarding the use of the internet not something I have done or
>>> would
>>>>>> do,
>>>>>>> for me it would be too hard to 'patrol'. But as long as all
>>> students
>>>>>>> have the same conditions it doesn't matter (mind you I don't have a
>>>>>>> study design or assessment hand book beside me to check re
>>>>>>> conditions)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Same for the time frame, I assume you mean a lesson or two prior to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> holidays and then some after (or similar), not something I would do
>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> for authentication purposes. I would do it all in a few lessons; I
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> even like weekends between assessment lessons if I can help it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Claudia Graham
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Overnewton College
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Keilor
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Ogilvie,
>>> Ross
>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>> *Sent:* 4 March 2008 7:50 PM
>>>>>>> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>> *Subject:* Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In regard to SD I have a couple of questions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. I have given my class a **Practice SAC** called **Shagadelic
>>>>>>> Carpets** (refer to attachment) (hope the author is OK with this).
>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>> question is....does anyone have the solutions so I can check if I
>>> am
>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> the right track.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. When I give my students the actual SAC:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> i. Can/should they access the internet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ii. Would there be a problem (in Vic) if the SAC extended
>>> through
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Term One holiday period into Term Two.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kindest Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **Ross Ogilvie **
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **LSF ICT Leader **
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **Sunbury**** College**
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **30 Racecourse Rd****, Sunbury 3429**
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **Ph (W) 9744 1066 **
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ** (H) 54272843**
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **Bookmarks: http://del.icio.us/Ross1956**
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **Wiki: http://ross1956.wikispaces.com/**
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>> --
>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>> --
>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>> Manager - Information Systems
>>>> McKinnon Secondary College
>>>> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>>>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
>>>> School Phone +613 8520 9000
>>>> School Fax +613 95789253
>>>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>>>
>>>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>> <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/>
>>>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com <http://vceit.com/>
>>>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>>>
>>>> You'll know when we are officially a civilised race: our schools have
>>>> all the money they need and the Air Force has to run a chook raffle to
>>>> buy a new bomber.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian
>>> Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>> Authority and
>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.3/1306 - Release Date:
>>> 1/03/2008 5:41 PM
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mark Kelly
>>> Manager - Information Systems
>>> McKinnon Secondary College
>>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>>>
>>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
>>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>>
>>> 1. Education is an admirable thing, but remember that nothing that is
>>> worth knowing can be taught - Oscar Wilde
>>> 2. I make trouble. You want some? - Mark Kelly
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>>>
>>>
>>> End of sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17
>>> **************************************
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>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
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>>> and
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
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>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>> Authority and
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Mark Kelly
> Manager - Information Systems
> McKinnon Secondary College
> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>
> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>
> 1. Education is an admirable thing, but remember that nothing that is
> worth knowing can be taught - Oscar Wilde
> 2. I make trouble. You want some? - Mark Kelly
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.edulists.com.au
> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority
> and
> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>
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