[Yr7-10it] Scratch, Gamemaker, VB.net, Python, PHP and MySQL - Programming for all levels

Mon Sep 17 18:27:55 EST 2007

Hi Kevork, I kinda agree with you in terms of the approach to learning the topic of computer programming. I, perhaps unlike yourself, didnt come from a pure programming trained background, my training was more focussed on being the 'middleman' in industry between the programmers and the management, kinda like the 'interpreter' I guess. You do however, have a reasonably valid point about the learning of languages these days. Personally, I think the kids have me a 'gimme now or else' approach. In some ways, the courses developed have 'catered' for that approach, and that has I feel, led to perhaps some of the lacking in the IT industry relative to what is being 'churned out' by education institutions now. Dont misunderstand please, they are just bound by what the powers that be TELL them to teach, rather than what the market actually NEEDS.
Short courses and instant qualifications seem to be the go! (if you can afford the 10 grand or so..)
Sorry, I'm a bit of a traditionalist and this attitude of teens who just want the internet and game playing, gets up my nose. 
Pity bout the small businesses out there who try to get a new staffer who can type, add and subtract efficiently and correctly, has the ability to pick up a basic system of filing and can maybe use the office computer to enter data. Its a bonus if they can 'follow instructions', pay attention for more than 10 minutes, and stay employed for more than 3 months!  Dont even think about asking them to make you a coffee!!
This is not fantasy, before some of you jump up and down, this is actually FACT! 
And NO, this is not an IR bashing exercise either. (that topic is irrelevent!)

Its now that time when subject selection is being made. My gut feeling is that since I dont 'pander' to the kids (ie be their best buddy or let them play games all the time!), they decide to put IT down low on their list of choices. Hey, its their loss I say. The IT industry has lots of opportunities if future staff are just prepared to do a little training and just hang in there. They dont just want someone who is able to play adventure games all day or playstation! 

Before some of you start to call me a 'dinosaur', I'm all for multi-skilling our kids, in fact I actively encourage it. I enjoy the IT classroom but it still annoys me that games seem to be the central focus of attention to many.

Sorry, got carried away....
KB.

Kent Beveridge,
I.T. co-ordinator
St. Brigids Catholic Sec. College
Horsham
email.. kbeveridge at stbc.vic.edu.au

|<3|\|7  b3\/3r1D93 ?  ;-)

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________________________________

From: yr7-10it-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Kevork Krozian
Sent: Mon 9/17/2007 4:43 PM
To: Year 7 - 10 Information Technology Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Yr7-10it] Scratch, Gamemaker, VB.net, Python,PHP and MySQL - Programming for all levels

Hi Bill,

 I take your point about the purist approach rather than let the market dictate what is good for me.
Having said that, it wasn't my intention to knock down python or scratch - just to show their level of pervasiveness. I know, most used doesn't mean the best.

I taught Python to my year 11s this year and PHP with MySQL to my year 12s. Some of my 11s actually managed to get Python to work with the MySQL backend as well. 
At one point in my professional life I REALLY wanted to make sure my students understood the way a half adder and a full adder worked with the truth tables, before they wrote a line of code. Yes, they had to understand how XOR gates worked or else they didn't deserve the luxury of using software to carry out arithmetic operations.

Nowadays, I tell them that they are unlikely to ever worry about how that works in their professional life. Perhaps off on a tangent, but if we are looking at what is the best programming language for children to learn in Period 1, and in Period 2 we are teaching students VET IT and what they need to go out and work in industry next year and the period after that we are teaching Cisco students how to set up a network in the "real" world through a simulated or school based problem then you will forgive my oversight if I stray into what is needed in industry as part of what they are doing. Maybe I am suffering VET fatigue.

In year 11, where students may be taking programming for the first time ever, the assessment requires that students look at IT Pathways of their chosen language and problem scenario as it exists in the market place. 

I do long for the good old days where I could teach machine language, then assembly, then Pascal, then a 4GL and insist on the correct use of data types, structures and avoidance of type mismatches and probe with a purely inquiry based approach to what is the most educationally suitable language for students.
Sadly, it is a luxury I simply don't have anymore.

I have put on my safety helmet in anticipation of the upcoming assault on my betrayal of my educational calling........   :))))

Take Care
Kevork Krozian
Edulists Creator and Administrator
www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/> 
kevork at edulists.com.au

	----- Original Message ----- 
	From: Bill Kerr <mailto:billkerr at gmail.com>  
	To: Year 7 - 10 Information Technology Teachers' Mailing List <mailto:yr7-10it at edulists.com.au>  
	Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 3:52 PM
	Subject: Re: [Yr7-10it] Scratch, Gamemaker, VB.net, Python,PHP and MySQL - Programming for all levels

	On 9/17/07, Kevork Krozian <Kroset at novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au> wrote:

		Check out http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm for a "league table" of language popularity.
		The order of popularity starting from the top is Java, C , (Visual) Basic, PHP ....    with python at Number 8. 
		Scratch is 2new to be listed it seems - even in the top 50.

	Kevork,
	It worries me that you present this league table in the context of a discussion about the merits of  programming languages for children, without seeing the need for an accompanying argument. 

	I point this out not just to be difficult but because I don't agree with the unstated implication that vocational factors ought to trump educational factors - surely something else needs to be said when such as table is presented? 

	ie. what weight ought to be assigned to the league table
	note their disclaimer: "Observe that the TIOBE index is not about the best programming language or the language in which most lines of code have been written."
	http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm

	I would have thought that Harvard University using scratch as an introduction to their Java programming course ought to count for something 

	-- 
	Bill Kerr
	http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/
	http://www.users.on.net/~billkerr/
	skype: billkerr2006 _______________________________________________ 
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