[Year 12 SofDev] RE: Database question and confusion
Mark Kelly
kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
Thu Oct 16 11:52:46 EST 2008
I'd be happy to collate feedback I see on this list and ITA, and year 11.
Allan Barnes wrote:
> Towards the end of each cycle of the accreditation period there is an
> opportunity to provide comments and suggested alterations to the study
> design. Perhaps the VCAA and/or VITTA could publicise this opportunity
> so that people can nominate to be on the committee, or a process can be
> set up whereby comments are fed through to a representative to present
> to the committee .
>
>
>
> Having been on the committee myself once in the past, I found it very
> useful, especially in terms of discussing what should be covered in the
> course with people from industry, TAFE and University to get their
> perspective on what needs to be covered. And the VCAA did listen to our
> concerns and did incorporate many of our suggestions into the previous
> study design.
>
>
>
> Kind regards
>
>
>
> Allan Barnes, CEO
>
> Australian Institute of Education and Training
>
> P.O. Box 171
>
> Brunswick West 3055
>
> Ph: (03) 9387 2051
>
> FAX: (03) 9387 3470
>
> Mobile: 0409 428 221
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Andrew Shortell
> *Sent:* Thursday, 16 October 2008 9:23 AM
> *To:* Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Database question and confusion
>
>
>
> A better question would be
>
> “Why are they so vague?”
>
> And then
>
> “What is the purpose of the lack of precision in a subject that is
> mostly about being precise?”
>
>
>
> The answers to those questions would illuminate many of the areas of
> confusion…….
>
> So talk to people who were on the panel of the current study design
>
>
>
> Andrew Shortell
>
> Braemar College
>
>
>
> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Russell Quinn
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 15 October 2008 3:10 PM
> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
> *Subject:* [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Database question and confusion
>
>
>
> Another excellent reason for having a properly
>
> defined course. Our current VCAA statements
>
> only breed confusion and inefficiency. They wast
>
> out time and there students time, esp. when there
>
> is precious little time to spare. But no
>
> one ever seems to listen or respond.
>
>
>
> Russell Quinn
>
>
>
> Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
> *Sent:* Tue 14/10/2008 1:00 PM
> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 44, Issue 4
>
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>
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>
>
> 1. RE: Database question (Quentin Lydall)
>
> 2. Re: Database question (Mark Kelly)
>
> 3. Re: Special thanks to Associate Professor Steven Bird
>
> (Kevork Krozian)
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Message: 1
>
> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:10:07 +1100
>
> From: "Quentin Lydall" <qly at beaconhills.vic.edu.au>
>
> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Database question
>
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>
> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>
> Message-ID:
>
> <AFC3563D81D1044097735D5F6A3DBBE5014D7B6E at valley02.Beaconhills.beaconhills.vic.edu.au>
>
>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
>
>
> I agree. Students should understand normalization, primary and foreign keys, lookup tables, data types and their properties, etc. There just is a fundamental logic error in the formulation of this answer, in a database context. Maybe it was done late at night..
>
>
>
> Quentin Lydall
>
> Head of ICT
>
> Beaconhills College Valley Campus
>
> 30-34 Toomuc Valley Road,
>
> Pakenham
>
> 3810
>
> Phone: 1300 002 225 Extn 3016
>
> Please consider the environment before printing my emailP
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Steven Bird
>
> Sent: Tuesday, 14 October 2008 11:58 AM
>
> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Database question
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Adrian Janson
>
> <janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au> wrote:
>
>> Yes – quite correct. My students spotted this as well. The x5 is not
>
>> required.
>
>
>
> There's some other problems though. A database with 20,000 customers
>
> should have one or more indexes to support efficient retrieval, and
>
> these take space. Nightly dumps take space as well. If the question
>
> is getting at how much disk space we should budget for, these factors
>
> are relevant.
>
>
>
> It would be bad database design to store postcode and suburb with each
>
> customer record (cf [1]). Instead a customer record should contain a
>
> foreign key to a table of postcodes, e.g. a subset of [2]. We're told
>
> the company only has sales in a "local area", so perhaps we'd only
>
> have to deal with a dozen postcodes. That table would be a constant
>
> size overhead which is easy to compute, and the foreign key would be a
>
> short integer (e.g. TINYINT).
>
>
>
> The question treats a database as if it was a spreadsheet, and only
>
> requires students to know the relative sizes of characters, bytes, and
>
> bits.
>
>
>
> It would be good if students learnt about normalization and the
>
> importance of avoiding duplication in a database. It would also be
>
> nice if they learnt what Unicode is, and that 1 character != 1 byte.
>
>
>
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_normalization
>
> [2] http://www1.auspost.com.au/download/pc-full.zip
>
>
>
> -Steven Bird
>
> http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/
>
>
>
>> A database for an online marketing company keeps records of all customers
>
>> who have requested coupons and notifications of sales in their local area.
>
>> They currently have a dedicated customer base of around 5000 customers, but
>
>> wish to grow this to 20,000 customers within the next 5 years. How much
>
>> storage capacity will be required to store 20,000 customer records for the
>
>> entire 5 year period, given the following information:
>
>> First Name – 50 characters
>
>> Last Name – 50 characters
>
>> Address – 100 characters
>
>> Suburb – 50 characters
>
>> Phone number – 10 characters each (2 phone numbers per customer)
>
>> Email address – 50 characters
>
>> Postcode – 4 characters
>
>> Number of coupons received – 32-bit number
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> A. 34,200,000 bytes
>
>>
>
>> B. 32,400,000 bytes
>
>>
>
>> C. 35,600,000 bytes
>
>>
>
>> D. 32,800,000 bytes
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> The solution gives D with the explanation
>
>>
>
>> 50+50+100+50+10+10+50+4+4 =
>
>>
>
>> 328
>
>> 328 x 20000 x 5 = 32,800,000
>
>>
>
>> Why multiply by 5? Would the company recreate the entire records each
>
>> year? I'd design it differently..
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Appreciate your help.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Quentin Lydall
>
>> Head of ICT
>
>> Beaconhills College Valley Campus
>
>> 30-34 Toomuc Valley Road,
>
>> Pakenham
>
>> 3810
>
>> Phone: 1300 002 225 Extn 3016
>
>>
>
>> P Please consider the environment before printing my email
>
>>
>
>
>
> #####################################################################################
>
> This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom
>
> it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and
>
> do not necessarily represent those of Beaconhills College. If you are not the
>
> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that
>
> any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly
>
> prohibited.
>
> If you have received this email in error please notify Beaconhills College
>
> by telephone on (+61 3) 1300 002 225.
>
> #####################################################################################
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Message: 2
>
> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 12:51:48 +1100
>
> From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Database question
>
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>
> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>
> Message-ID: <48F3FB34.3010003 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
>
>
> I see what you mean, but I think the question writer just used a
>
> database as a vehicle for interrogating students' knowledge of number
>
> types.
>
>
>
> Since database structure is not part of the study design, a question
>
> that required knowledge of indexes, normalisation, and relational links
>
> etc could not, IMO, be justified.
>
>
>
> 2 cents worth (and devaluing rapidly). Only a year without teaching SD
>
> and my memory of it is getting rusty already!
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Steven Bird wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Adrian Janson
>
>> <janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au> wrote:
>
>>> Yes quite correct. My students spotted this as well. The x5 is not
>
>>> required.
>
>>
>
>> There's some other problems though. A database with 20,000 customers
>
>> should have one or more indexes to support efficient retrieval, and
>
>> these take space. Nightly dumps take space as well. If the question
>
>> is getting at how much disk space we should budget for, these factors
>
>> are relevant.
>
>>
>
>> It would be bad database design to store postcode and suburb with each
>
>> customer record (cf [1]). Instead a customer record should contain a
>
>> foreign key to a table of postcodes, e.g. a subset of [2]. We're told
>
>> the company only has sales in a "local area", so perhaps we'd only
>
>> have to deal with a dozen postcodes. That table would be a constant
>
>> size overhead which is easy to compute, and the foreign key would be a
>
>> short integer (e.g. TINYINT).
>
>>
>
>> The question treats a database as if it was a spreadsheet, and only
>
>> requires students to know the relative sizes of characters, bytes, and
>
>> bits.
>
>>
>
>> It would be good if students learnt about normalization and the
>
>> importance of avoiding duplication in a database. It would also be
>
>> nice if they learnt what Unicode is, and that 1 character != 1 byte.
>
>>
>
>> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_normalization
>
>> [2] http://www1.auspost.com.au/download/pc-full.zip
>
>>
>
>> -Steven Bird
>
>> http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/
>
>>
>
>>> A database for an online marketing company keeps records of all customers
>
>>> who have requested coupons and notifications of sales in their local area.
>
>>> They currently have a dedicated customer base of around 5000 customers, but
>
>>> wish to grow this to 20,000 customers within the next 5 years. How much
>
>>> storage capacity will be required to store 20,000 customer records for the
>
>>> entire 5 year period, given the following information:
>
>>> First Name 50 characters
>
>>> Last Name 50 characters
>
>>> Address 100 characters
>
>>> Suburb 50 characters
>
>>> Phone number 10 characters each (2 phone numbers per customer)
>
>>> Email address 50 characters
>
>>> Postcode 4 characters
>
>>> Number of coupons received 32-bit number
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> A. 34,200,000 bytes
>
>>>
>
>>> B. 32,400,000 bytes
>
>>>
>
>>> C. 35,600,000 bytes
>
>>>
>
>>> D. 32,800,000 bytes
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> The solution gives D with the explanation
>
>>>
>
>>> 50+50+100+50+10+10+50+4+4 =
>
>>>
>
>>> 328
>
>>> 328 x 20000 x 5 = 32,800,000
>
>>>
>
>>> Why multiply by 5? Would the company recreate the entire records each
>
>>> year? I'd design it differently..
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> Appreciate your help.
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> Quentin Lydall
>
>>>
>
>>> Head of ICT
>
>>>
>
>>> Beaconhills College Valley Campus
>
>>>
>
>>> 30-34 Toomuc Valley Road,
>
>>>
>
>>> Pakenham
>
>>>
>
>>> 3810
>
>>>
>
>>> Phone: 1300 002 225 Extn 3016
>
>>>
>
>>> P Please consider the environment before printing my email
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> ________________________________
>
>>>
>
>>> This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the
>
>>> individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are
>
>>> solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of
>
>>> Beaconhills College. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that
>
>>> you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination,
>
>>> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If
>
>>> you have received this email in error please notify Beaconhills College by
>
>>> telephone on (+61 3) 1300 002 225.
>
>>>
>
>>> ________________________________
>
>>>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>
>>> http://www.edulists.com.au IT Software Development Mailing List kindly
>
>>> supported by
>
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>
>>> Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers
>
>>> Association Inc
>
>>>
>
>>> Important - This email and any attachments may be confidential. If received
>
>>> in error, please contact us and delete all copies. Before opening or using
>
>>> attachments check them for viruses and defects. Regardless of any loss,
>
>>> damage or consequence, whether caused by the negligence of the sender or
>
>>> not, resulting directly or indirectly from the use of any attached files our
>
>>> liability is limited to resupplying any affected attachments. Any
>
>>> representations or opinions expressed are those of the individual sender,
>
>>> and not necessarily those of the Department of Education and Early Childhood
>
>>> Development.
>
>>>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>
>>> http://www.edulists.com.au IT Software Development Mailing List kindly
>
>>> supported by
>
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>
>>> Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers
>
>>> Association Inc
>
>>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>
>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>
>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>
>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Mark Kelly
>
> Manager - Information Systems
>
> McKinnon Secondary College
>
> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>
> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
>
> School Phone +613 8520 9000
>
> School Fax +613 95789253
>
> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>
>
>
> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>
> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
>
> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>
>
>
> A conclusion is the place where you got sick of thinking.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Message: 3
>
> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 11:58:39 +1100
>
> From: "Kevork Krozian" <Kroset at novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au>
>
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Special thanks to Associate Professor
>
> Steven Bird
>
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>
> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>
> Message-ID: <48F497EE.EE3E.0095.0 at novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15
>
>
>
> Hi Steven,
>
>
>
> I think we are very fortunate and privileged to have your time and
>
> expertise on these lists.
>
>
>
> I am sure you have other pressing demands on your time not least of
>
> which in your lecturing and related duties in the Uni of Melbourne
>
> Computer Science faculty and other projects, research and activities you
>
> are working on as recorded on http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/ .
>
>
>
> Your explanations and insights into implications of certain questions
>
> on both the final and practice exams in Software Development can only
>
> help us all to become better teachers if for no other reason than the
>
> seed it plants to think about problems from another perspective and
>
> hopefully continue the discussion and seek further clarification.
>
>
>
> So on behalf of the list membership, please keep your comments coming
>
> and thanks for your time.
>
>
>
>
>
> Best Wishes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Kevork Krozian
>
> IT Manager , Forest Hill College
>
> k.krozian at fhc.vic.edu.au
>
> http://www.fhc.vic.edu.au
>
> Mobile: 0419 356 034
>
>
>
>>>> "Steven Bird" <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au> 14/10/2008 11:57 am >>>
>
> On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Adrian Janson
>
> <janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au> wrote:
>
>> Yes * quite correct. My students spotted this as well. The x5 is
>
> not
>
>> required.
>
>
>
> There's some other problems though. A database with 20,000 customers
>
> should have one or more indexes to support efficient retrieval, and
>
> these take space. Nightly dumps take space as well. If the question
>
> is getting at how much disk space we should budget for, these factors
>
> are relevant.
>
>
>
> It would be bad database design to store postcode and suburb with each
>
> customer record (cf [1]). Instead a customer record should contain a
>
> foreign key to a table of postcodes, e.g. a subset of [2]. We're told
>
> the company only has sales in a "local area", so perhaps we'd only
>
> have to deal with a dozen postcodes. That table would be a constant
>
> size overhead which is easy to compute, and the foreign key would be a
>
> short integer (e.g. TINYINT).
>
>
>
> The question treats a database as if it was a spreadsheet, and only
>
> requires students to know the relative sizes of characters, bytes, and
>
> bits.
>
>
>
> It would be good if students learnt about normalization and the
>
> importance of avoiding duplication in a database. It would also be
>
> nice if they learnt what Unicode is, and that 1 character != 1 byte.
>
>
>
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_normalization
>
> [2] http://www1.auspost.com.au/download/pc-full.zip
>
>
>
> -Steven Bird
>
> http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/
>
>
>
>> A database for an online marketing company keeps records of all
>
> customers
>
>> who have requested coupons and notifications of sales in their local
>
> area.
>
>> They currently have a dedicated customer base of around 5000
>
> customers, but
>
>> wish to grow this to 20,000 customers within the next 5 years. How
>
> much
>
>> storage capacity will be required to store 20,000 customer records
>
> for the
>
>> entire 5 year period, given the following information:
>
>> First Name * 50 characters
>
>> Last Name * 50 characters
>
>> Address * 100 characters
>
>> Suburb * 50 characters
>
>> Phone number * 10 characters each (2 phone numbers per customer)
>
>> Email address * 50 characters
>
>> Postcode * 4 characters
>
>> Number of coupons received * 32-bit number
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> A. 34,200,000 bytes
>
>>
>
>> B. 32,400,000 bytes
>
>>
>
>> C. 35,600,000 bytes
>
>>
>
>> D. 32,800,000 bytes
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> The solution gives D with the explanation
>
>>
>
>> 50+50+100+50+10+10+50+4+4 =
>
>>
>
>> 328
>
>> 328 x 20000 x 5 = 32,800,000
>
>>
>
>> Why multiply by 5? Would the company recreate the entire records
>
> each
>
>> year? I'd design it differently..
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Appreciate your help.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Quentin Lydall
>
>>
>
>> Head of ICT
>
>>
>
>> Beaconhills College Valley Campus
>
>>
>
>> 30-34 Toomuc Valley Road,
>
>>
>
>> Pakenham
>
>>
>
>> 3810
>
>>
>
>> Phone: 1300 002 225 Extn 3016
>
>>
>
>> P Please consider the environment before printing my email
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> ________________________________
>
>>
>
>> This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the
>
>> individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented
>
> are
>
>> solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of
>
>> Beaconhills College. If you are not the intended recipient, be
>
> advised that
>
>> you have received this email in error and that any use,
>
> dissemination,
>
>> forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly
>
> prohibited. If
>
>> you have received this email in error please notify Beaconhills
>
> College by
>
>> telephone on (+61 3) 1300 002 225.
>
>>
>
>> ________________________________
>
>>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>
>> http://www.edulists.com.au IT Software Development Mailing List
>
> kindly
>
>> supported by
>
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>
>> Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>
>> http://www.vitta.org.au - VITTA Victorian Information Technology
>
> Teachers
>
>> Association Inc
>
>>
>
>> Important - This email and any attachments may be confidential. If
>
> received
>
>> in error, please contact us and delete all copies. Before opening or
>
> using
>
>> attachments check them for viruses and defects. Regardless of any
>
> loss,
>
>> damage or consequence, whether caused by the negligence of the sender
>
> or
>
>> not, resulting directly or indirectly from the use of any attached
>
> files our
>
>> liability is limited to resupplying any affected attachments. Any
>
>> representations or opinions expressed are those of the individual
>
> sender,
>
>> and not necessarily those of the Department of Education and Early
>
> Childhood
>
>> Development.
>
>>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>
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Most people don't realise that small kitchen sponges, when nailed to the
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