[Year 12 SofDev] RE: Industry practice - Tertiary links
Robert Mercer
rmercer at groupwise.swin.edu.au
Mon Apr 28 13:16:12 EST 2008
Hi list, just a point about tertiary courses recognising VCE IT. Something I was not aware of when I worked as a secondary IT teacher was a thing called "middle band". This gives students a bonus to their raw enter if they have done a relevant VCE study.
For example if we take Professional Software Development degree at Swinburne, if you did VCE Software Development and got 30 or over you would get up to 1 extra point added to your raw ENTER, up to 2 points for 35 and over and up to 3 points for 40 and over. Now if you did both ITA and SD you would get the same thing, but twice. So if you got over 40 in both you would get up to 6 added to your ENTER.
I think VCE IT gives students a good introduction and awareness of many different areas of tertiary studies and think this is one way to encourage students who are interested in the area if they know about it.
Regards,
Rob Mercer
ICT Outreach - Project Officer
Faculty of Information & Communication Technologies
Swinburne University of Technology
PO Box 218
Hawthorn VIC 3122 Australia
PH: +61 3 9214 8768
FAX :+61 3 9214 5320
rmercer at swin.edu.au
>>> "Beattie, K". xThis largely how y L" <beattie.kelly.l at edumail.vic.gov.au> 27/04/2008 6:30 pm >>>
At the end of the day none of the Yr 12 IT curriculum is a pre-requisite for any tertiary IT course. They only really have to do Maths. From my perspective SD gives students an introduction to the areas of Systems and Software development. It doesn't pretend to be anything but. I've had past students come back and tell me that the introduction they got to DFD's and algorithms and the basic programming constructs helped them tackle these areas in depth in their IT degrees. What we ultimately do is demystify some of the difficult stuff so it's not such a shock to them the first time they come across it in their courses.
Ultimately what we should be doing as educators is communicating with the tertiary institutions and making Senior IT something that they would consider to be a prerequisite for their courses. Until that happens we are only going to attract the kids with a hardcore interest in IT.
Kelly Beattie
Leading Schools Fund Coordinator
Moondah Centre
Drouin Secondary College
South Road, Drouin 3818
Ph: (03) 5625 1002
________________________________
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Today's Topics:
1. RE: Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks (MarkKelly)
(Jack Matthews)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 02:13:39 +1000
From: Jack Matthews <jack_m_matthews at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice -
tertiarylinks (MarkKelly)
To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
<sofdev at edulists.com.au>
Message-ID: <BLU142-W159B86E3DBBF644D1AC6A0A4E20 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
Hi
I have been following this topic for a while and it is similar to a complaint I
posted about the course when I was teaching it (Not teaching it anymore or in Australia but
will return someday so it is still of concern).
I was teaching just before SD was introduced but having a look at the
document it seemed only slightly different from the existing course.
This is how I felt about the course:
STRESSFUL - It was so difficult (especially being a new
teacher) to decipher what was important for the exam and what was not. I think any good teacher wants to give their
students the best chance during the exam and the lack of definite structure
really caused huge stress and difficulties.
HOW TO FIX THIS - One way might be to separate the course
into specific topics such as 'programming', 'Legal issues' etc. Then distribute
this document outlining the percentage of the exam allocated to each area at
the beginning of the year. This would
really help teachers for class preparation and the amount of time to spend on
each topic.
BORING (for me and
the students)- The course had good points and bad points but generally the lack
of depth - especially in programming - was really frustrating. By the end of the course the students that
could not already program a computer still could not program a computer. The main reason for this was the time taken up
by these mundane rote learning add on tasks. I can remember at university that it was only
when I understood how to create simple computer programs that I actually
understood "Systems Development". Incidentally,
this was a second year
University course that
covered DFDs, SDLC and other large scale development tools. I really think this stuff can be dropped at
high school level.
HOW TO FIX THIS - Preferably introduce a course called 'Computer
Programming' where the main emphasis is programming or alternatively cut down
on the existing theory so that students can further develop their skills and
come out of the course with confidence and a feeling they have achieved
something.
I agree with Andrew that once you learn one programming
language well it is much easier to then transfer these skills to a different
one. The argument that "When a student
enters the workforce the languages will be different so there is no point
teaching a specific language," does not really hold up I'm afraid. As long as the student has a good grasp on one
language (including syntax) they will be able to adapt to another one - if they
have no computer language skills you can be darn sure they will not be able to
pick up a new one.
"The IT industry is not made up entirely of
programmers. There are animators, web designers, systems analysts and
project managers just to name a few - none of whom necessarily have any
knowledge of programming"
Animators need to know programming basics for scripting such
as particle systems, Web designers should have a very good knowledge of
programming especially with technologies such as JavaScript, ASP, PHP etc. True, a project manager may not need these
skills but this guy is going to seriously get rolled when the programmer tells
him that the email functionality is going to take a weeks work. I think a good knowledge of programming is
useful for anyone in the computer field.
-Jack
From: janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au
To: sofdev at edulists.com.au
Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks (MarkKelly)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:17:48 +1000
Hi Andrew,
The social implications of the various Physics topics probably
takes up 5% of the course - which is comparable to the amount of the IT
course that it takes up. It certainly doesn't take up 50% of the
course. However, at least 50% of the SD course is theory - and this
is where you and I differ in opinion. I would not change this percentage -
although my students would. Does this mean that I/we 'should'
change how much theory we change - at the whim of our students? Do
our students have many years experience of the IT industry? Do our
students really understand the challenges that they will face? No and
No. In this respect - we do. I know most of my students would
rather sit around during my classes and play computer games. Perhaps we
should change the course - because this is what the students
want??? Our enrolments will go up - and they will be attaining
skills!!! But I am being sarcastic clearly....
>I certainly dont agree. I haven't heard this argument
for a while but computer language basics never change . All you do is add
on to what we know eg OOP /c++. We also have event driven GUI programs now
instead of bottom up approach like VB.
Precisely
my argument! Computer language basics never change - so why focus
so much on pure syntax???
>NO programming is a creative ability and you need time to do this. This is
my whole argument is that being creative with programming requires knowledge
you get from programming . You cant learn to make a space invaders game by
doing DFD/pert charts and legal issues , you learn by knowing basics and
building upon them. Programming is time consuming and it takes patience and
practice.
OK.
We agree that programming is a creative ability. To say that you can't
learn to program Space Invaders by doing DFDs / Pert charts and developing an
understanding or legal issues is also quite correct. However - you are
making a rather big assumption about our clientele. They don't all
want to be programmers. The IT industry is not made up entirely of programmers.
There are animators, web designers, systems analysts and project managers just
to name a few - none of whom necessarily have any knowledge of
programming. I would suggest that if you want to develop programming
skills amongst your clientele - you do it at Years 7-10 - design /
write a course that will attract students to undertake the subject and meet
their needs.
VCE is the pointy end of the secondary school experience and we
have a responsibility to give our students a well rounded experience that will
allow them to undertake further study (or not). I must confess that I
cannot get my head around the notion that you think the legal and ethical
components of the course are irrelevant. What does the average 17 year
old understand about the law? In fact, the typical IT student has already
accepted a number of illegal practices and regards them as being 'OK'.
How as educators can we ignore this?
Andrew, take my comments in the spirit in which they were
intended - debate of all sorts is healthy!
BTW: Did you receive my email off-list? A reply as
soon as possible would be appreciated.
Cheers,
Adrian
Adrian
Janson,
VITTA
President
Director
of ICT,
Melbourne
High School,
Forrest
Hill, South Yarra 3141 Australia.
Phone:
03 9826 0711 International: +61 3 9826 0711
Fax:
03 9826 8767 International: +61 3 9826 8767
E-mail:
janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au
Website:
http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au <http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au/>
Blog:
http://jansona.edublogs.org <http://jansona.edublogs.org/>
From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
[mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of andrew barry
Sent: Thursday, 24 April 2008 9:19 PM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks
(MarkKelly)
As a teacher of physics - I have to say that the
implications of the uses of nuclear energy is actually part of the course
- and is a very important part of the course! Otherwise we are
delivering content and not 'teaching'. In effect, I feel that teaching
without this reflection creates students (- in fact, young people) without the
skills to critically evaluate a topic. In the nuclear physics topic, I
teach students the basics of building a nuclear bomb. Is this even
ethical on it's own and in isolation?
does it make up 50% of the physics course? there is nothing wrong with this but
IT has much time devoted to theory when they could be learning skills. So are
you saying we should spend less time developing skills because we need to know
theory?
>Here is where your argument
is flawed - especially in a subject like IT. The skills that you
are teaching are really a focus on process. The software and programming
languages will have evolved by the time that your students enter the workforce
- and they will then be relying upon the processes behind the creation of
the software. If you have focused purely on skills - your students
will not have the creative ability (and programming IS a creative process and
not a mechanical one).
I certainly dont agree. I
haven't heard this argument for a while but computer language basics never
change . All you do is add on to what we know eg OOP /c++. We also have
event driven GUI programs now instead of bottom up approach like VB.
NO programming is a creative ability and you need time to do this. This is my
whole argument is that being creative with programming requires knowledge you
get from programming . You cant learn to make a space invaders game by doing
DFD/pert charts and legal issues , you learn by knowing basics and
building upon them. Programming is time consuming and it takes patience and
practice.
Being creative is my goal and only programming skills can help. Design
theory comes in use here of course.
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Adrian Janson <janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au>
wrote:
Hi Andrew,
The numbers of
students taking IT subjects needs to increase as we have a demand for IT
professionals in this country. Students are not undertaking IT courses
for a variety of reasons - but I don't think that one of them is the
course content - as students do not know much about this until they start
the actual course.
>Students can be aware of such issues in earlier years
but not VCE. If I do physics do i do a SAC on the social
implications of devising nuclear energy? or how splitting the atom cuses
more harm than good or in yr12 biology to we write essays on global warming?
As a teacher of
physics - I have to say that the implications of the uses of nuclear
energy is actually part of the course - and is a very important part of
the course! Otherwise we are delivering content and not 'teaching'.
In effect, I feel that teaching without this reflection creates students (- in
fact, young people) without the skills to critically evaluate a topic. In
the nuclear physics topic, I teach students the basics of building a nuclear
bomb. Is this even ethical on it's own and in isolation?
>This type of thinking with IT is harming it
because students are confused about what we think IT is. I used to teach at
Tafe and Uni IT and It was mostly hands on or if it was theory they just did a
theory subject. You don't get employed with weak skills and it is skills i want
to teach and not social issues in VCE IT. That is just my opinion and maybe
others agree or disagree.
Here is where your
argument is flawed - especially in a subject like IT. The skills
that you are teaching are really a focus on process. The software and
programming languages will have evolved by the time that your students enter
the workforce - and they will then be relying upon the processes behind
the creation of the software. If you have focused purely on skills
- your students will not have the creative ability (and programming IS a
creative process and not a mechanical one).
In regards to the
social issues of IT (and I take it you didn't catch the excellent - but
highly disturbing report on 60 minutes two weeks ago?) - I feel it would
socially irresponsible of us as educational leaders and the ones towards which
our students look for guidance - to simply ignore social issues in this
day and age.
Cheers,
Adrian
Adrian
Janson,
VITTA
President
Director
of ICT,
Melbourne
High School,
Forrest
Hill, South Yarra 3141 Australia.
Phone:
03 9826 0711 International: +61 3 9826 0711
Fax:
03 9826 8767 International: +61 3 9826 8767
E-mail:
janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au
Website:
http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au <http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au/>
Blog:
http://jansona.edublogs.org <http://jansona.edublogs.org/>
From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
[mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
On Behalf Of andrew barry
Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2008 7:58 PM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks
(MarkKelly)
Hi Adrian,
Well I can see forced change on the horizon by outside factors.
You shouldn't try to devise a plan to just bulk up numbers but the numbers need
to increase. IF people are voting with their feet and then we need to listen.
>In maths you teach maths and in english you teach english. What maths sac
asks you to explain a legal consideration for the calculations or asks to list
any business considerations and document elaborate plans to reach an answer?
>Here is where I must strongly disagree with the stance
that I (think) you are making. Our
students need to be aware of the legal issues and considerations involved in
this subject. Watch the news almost any night of the week for evidence of
this. If our SD students are to be the ICT leaders of tomorrow -
then they need to be properly equipped in this regard.
Students can be aware of such issues in earlier years
but not VCE. If I do physics do i do a SAC on the social
implications of devising nuclear energy? or how splitting the atom cuses
more harm than good or in yr12 biology to we write essays on global warming?
This type of thinking with IT is harming it because
students are confused about what we think IT is. I used to teach at Tafe and
Uni IT and It was mostly hands on or if it was theory they just did a theory
subject. You don't get employed with weak skills and it is skills i want to
teach and not social issues in VCE IT. That is just my opinion and maybe others
agree or disagree.
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Adrian Janson <janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au>
wrote:
Hi Andrew,
>The issue here is how to
improve SD enrollment and relevance. The government is itching for change and
even the adopt a schools policy sees IT as a major area .
Agreed - however, I am not prepared to concede to a
plan in which we design curriculum merely to bulk up our numbers.
>Who is going to decide what we teach? business!
Business is a driver certainly - but the 'tail does
not wag the dog'. How does business know what it needs? Are the
needs of business driven by the 'now' rather the 'future'?
>In maths you teach maths and in english you teach english. What maths sac
asks you to explain a legal consideration for the calculations or asks to list
any business considerations and document elaborate plans to reach an answer?
Here is where I must strongly disagree with the stance that
I (think) you are making. Our students need to be aware of the legal
issues and considerations involved in this subject. Watch the news almost
any night of the week for evidence of this. If our SD students are to be
the ICT leaders of tomorrow - then they need to be properly equipped in
this regard.
>IT subjects should just teach programming and some design
theory.
There is a lot more than programming in IT *(did I just say
that!!??!). The SD course has a good balance between programming and
design elements - and I personally feel that that balance should be
maintained.
Cheers,
Adrian
Adrian
Janson,
VITTA
President
Director
of ICT,
Melbourne
High School,
Forrest
Hill, South Yarra 3141 Australia.
Phone:
03 9826 0711 International: +61 3 9826 0711
Fax:
03 9826 8767 International: +61 3 9826 8767
E-mail:
janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au
Website:
http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au <http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au/>
Blog:
http://jansona.edublogs.org <http://jansona.edublogs.org/>
From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
[mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
On Behalf Of andrew barry
Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2008 5:25 PM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks
(MarkKelly)
The issue here is how to
improve SD enrollment and relevance. The government is itching for change and
even the adopt a schools policy sees IT as a major area .
Who is going to decide what we teach? business!
In maths you teach maths and in english you teach english. What maths sac asks
you to explain a legal consideration for the calculations or asks to list any
business considerations and document elaborate plans to reach an answer?
Maths teaches maths and IT should teach IT and not IT/business models. Does a
maths sac ask for any historical q's about where the formulas come from? Is
maths well rounded ?
IT subjects should just teach programming and some design theory.
On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:42 PM, Adrian Janson <janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au>
wrote:
Hi everyone,
"Teachers are NOT curriculum materials developers."
I have to say that this statement goes against everything
that I believe. I
have designed the Year 9 and Year 10 courses that I teach for IT - and I
revise and update them each year so that they are well suited to the cohort
that I teach. Who best understands the needs of our students? We
each
do... and when it comes to VCE - each one of us is passionate about what
content is best suited to the future prospects of our VCE students and the
discipline of ICT as a whole. I for one and passionate about ICT and have
very definite views about what core skills ICT students need moving forward
- into a career path or their lives.
My 2c
Cheers,
Adrian
-----Original Message-----
From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
[mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
On Behalf Of Timmer-Arends
Sent: Tuesday, 22 April 2008 6:25 PM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice -
tertiarylinks
(MarkKelly)
>> Teachers are NOT curriculum materials developers.
Stephen, I can't agree with this statement either, simply because I believe
that is one of the crafts of being a teacher; ie being able to develop
material which will help convey concepts and skills to students (and that
might include dipping into whatever resources are available out there)
I had thought from earlier posts on this topic that you originally meant
that teachers should not be developing 'content'; ie deciding what skills
and knowledge students should have by the end of a year. And I have some
sympathy for this view - but maybe it's not what you meant in the first
place???
Anyway, I have come to the view that SDs need to be far more explicit and
specific about what knowledge/skills students should have by the end of Year
12. It is the final year of secondary enducation and I cannot see any other
way of guaranteeing any sort of standard. Providing flexibility in a course
so that teachers can meet the needs of their students is one thing (and
important), but allowing teachers to decide the depth themselves is
problematic, and I suspect leads to the exam becoming the standard setter,
and I don't know that that is a good thing.
Regards
Robert T-A
Brighton SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Kelly" <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
<sofdev at edulists.com.au>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks
(MarkKelly)
>
> Stephen Digby wrote:
>> Here here !!!
>> I say again.....
>>
>
> Oooh - I think we are. But we often rely on textbook writers to save
us
> doing it ourselves. We still have to choose which materials we use.
>
>> It is the curriculum design authorities responsibility to provide
>> classroom teaching materials to teachers (preferably with a range of
>> options !).
>
> Is it? This would come as a surprise to most curriculum design
> authorities - except the ones in China, perhaps. If they DID provide
> anything more than sample teaching materials, I would be deeply worried
> about government interference.
>
>> It is teachers responsibility to understand the content and their
>> students so that they can use these materials to plan, prep, teach,
>> correct, and communicate
>> Inevitably teachers will tweak for their own class and discover
>> possibilities, alternatives, improvements.
>> The second responsibility of the curriculum design authority should be
to
>> systematically collect and utilise this field testing to improve the
>> curriculum design.
>> Two examples to show how simple these processes are:
>> - give the curriculum design to all publishers and ask for draft
>> responses in terms of classroom material support. Choose a single
>> publisher as the recommended support material for a definite period
e.g
>> 3 years so that they have the chance to profit from their recommended
>> status.
>
> I can already hear the screaming about this one. One vital feature of
> education is the freedom to use a variety of suitable resources at the
> discretion of the student and teacher.
> Choosing a "preferred" publisher would cause sales of other
'unapproved'
> texts to evaporate, and considering the already-precarious IT textbook
> sales figures most other publishers would not bother releasing a text at
> all.
>
> This would, in effect, result in a single textbook and stifle the richness
> of available opinion and pedagogical style. Publishers would be in
> revolt - quite justifiably.
>
> And how will the 'approved' text be chosen? Do you expect VCAA to
choose
> a publisher on the basis of a proposal and a sample chapter from
> publishers? For that would be the only way it could work: VCAA would
have
> no finished textbook to base its judgement on because NO publisher is
> going to pay authors to create a full text and submit it in the hope of
> being picked. It just would not happen!
>
> And if the preferred text was later found to be flawed in some way, the
> VCAA would be partially culpable. I don't think they want such
problems
> being beaten to death on the nightly current affairs shows.
>
> The only 'DEECD preferred' suppliers are, and should remain to be, related
> to the supply of software, hardware and leasing services. They must
not
> extend to educational resources. If the VCAA started down this path they
> would be in a world of trouble. I think this is why they are so
chary
> about recommending any resources apart from their own - the exception
> being the last 2 pages of the study design.
>
>
>> Of course, a recommendation is not a compulsion, and schools may
choose
>> not to use the recommended resources. The likelihood that they
be chosen
>> again will of course depend on the ongoing feedback re. the quality of
>> their resources and their continued support through the 3 years.
>> - require all teachers in all govt schools to provide copies of their
sac
>> tasks with a sample answer from the teacher. (No cost. No
copyright as
>> the work is owned by the government). Select the best 50 and
publish on
>> line (No Cost) as exemplars to assist teachers in Year 2.
>
> I bet VCAA is quite busy enough assessing the few tasks they call for
> during subject auditing. If every SAC had to be independently
judged, the
> VCAA would either collapse under the weight, or grow to rival the size of
> the public service sector of Bulgaria. :-)
>> etc etc etc
>
> But thanks for the interesting post, Stephen. I'm sure it will
stimulate
> discussion.
>> ====================================================
>> Stephen Digby, Learning Technology Manager
>> mailto: digby.stephen.p at edumail.vic.gov.au
>> <mailto:digby.stephen.p at edumail.vic.gov.au> Cheltenham
Secondary College
>> www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au
<http://www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au/>
>> Ph: 613 955 55 955 Fx: 9555 8617 Mb: 0431-701-028
>> ====================================================
>> The other day somebody stole everything in my apartment and replaced
it
>> with an exact replica... When my roommate came home I said,
"Roommate,
>> someone stole everything in our apartment and replaced it with an
exact
>> replica." He looked at me and said, "Do I know you?"
Steven Wright
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Russell
Quinn
>> *Sent:* Monday, 21 April 2008 10:33 AM
>> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>> *Subject:* [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice -
tertiary
>> links (MarkKelly)
>>
>> Hi again,
>> I am
really sorry to be so negative all of the time but
>> I find
>> this an appalling situation and I cannot stay silent.
>> What I have been constantly hearing through the
mail
>> is that we have SD teachers who don't know
>> what to teach and don't know why they are teaching it.
>> Rest assured, it is not the teaching staff I hold to
account.
>> Consider all of the wasted time, sleep and worry
by teaching
>> staff who should be devoting their time and energy into
how to
>> teach it, preparing great materials and assessing the
students work.
>> Instead we have people running around in circles trying
to work
>> out what to do.
>> No wonder people are not keen to write their own
SAC's.
>> Apparently the VCAA is quite happy with the status quo.
I look
>> forward to making a positive contribution soon.
>> Russell Quinn
>> Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>> *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 10:06 PM
>> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
>>
>> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
visit
>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body
'help' to
>> sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> sofdev-owner at edulists.com.au
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is
more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary
links (Mark Kelly)
>> 2. RE: Re: Industry practice - tertiary
links (Meadows, Roslyn M)
>>
>>
>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:40:09 +1000
>> From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice -
tertiary links
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing
List"
>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> Message-ID: <48088899.8050808 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed
>>
>> Maybe the first thing to do is to decide what VCE SD is
for.
>>
>> What is it meant to achieve?
>>
>> Is it meant to be a preparation for tertiary study?
>> Is it meant to be a skills-based preparation for work?
>> Is it meant to be a fun 12 months until uni begins?
>> Is it meant to give hope to kids who are unqualified for
any other
>> VCE
>> subject?
>>
>> I'm sure the VCAA has a good answer to this. It would be
interesting
>> to
>> hear it. Then, maybe, we can start re-defining SD - and
ITA.
>>
>> That's assuming VCE IT NEEDS to be redefined...
>>
>> Which is maybe a good place for the review of the VCE IT
Study Design
>> to
>> begin...
>>
>> And when it does, Paula, I hope it's virtual rather than
with
>> meetings
>> in the city. I'd much rather sit at home with a
glass of Cab Sav and
>> take time to ponder the intricacies of an argument, do
research, and
>> fast-forward through the boring people - rather than
commute to the
>> big
>> smoke and sit with a dozen passionate people all
determined to get a
>> word in edgewise within an hour so no-one's argument can
get fully
>> thought-out, crafted and developed in its entirety.
>>
>> Oooh! Saint Kilda's winning. Must go...
>>
>> Russell Quinn wrote:
>> > The first thing would be inclined to do is
throw out all of the
>> > networking -
>> > which is totally irrelevant to software development
(except to a
>> small and
>> > select few specialists) and replace it with actual
software
>> development.
>> >
>> > I also think the obsession with the business models
should be
>> downplayed,
>> > and the scenario's broadened to something far more
interesting.
>> After
>> > all, business
>> > is just one of the reasons for writing software,
and not a very
>> > interesting one at that.
>> >
>> > It appears that students are voting with their
feet, and I can see
>> their
>> > point.
>> > The only way to plug the leak is to make the
courses software based
>> and
>> > interesting.
>> >
>> > Russell Quinn
>> >
>> > Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>> >
>> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>> > *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 12:00 PM
>> > *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>> > *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>> >
>> > Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
>> > sofdev at edulists.com.au
>> >
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
visit
>> > http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body
'help' to
>> > sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>> >
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>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it
is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> > 1. Re: Industry practice - tertiary
links (Steven Bird)
>> > 2. RE: Industry practice - tertiary
links (Selina Dennis)
>> > 3. Re: Industry practice - tertiary
links (Mark Kelly)
>> >
>> >
>> >
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:00:37 +1000
>> > From: "Steven Bird" <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice -
tertiary links
>> > To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers'
Mailing List"
>> > <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> > Message-ID:
>> > <97e4e62e0804171400q6bf98a9fq3acd059906fe980 at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends
>> <timmer at melbpc.org.au>
wrote:
>> >> I have to say that this discussion is heading
to Comp Sci circa
>> 1990 (which
>> >> is not necessarily a bad thing)
>> >
>> > Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT
subject. The theory
>> on
>> > which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older
still, but no-one
>> > considers that dated.
>> >
>> >> but it seems to me that a couple of
>> >> questions need to be answered first:
>> >> 1. what do we want students to get out of
a technically-oriented
>> Y12 IT course?
>> >> 2. is the course primarily intended to
prepare students for
>> teritary, work, or both?
>> >
>> > Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is
foundational study,
>> > preparing students for whatever they choose to do
in future, even
>> if
>> > it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>> >
>> > For the students continuing from VCE Software Development
to a
>> degree
>> > in Software Engineering, we would prefer students
to have a solid
>> > grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the
associated
>> > programming skills. (The SDLC follows
naturally once they're ready
>> to
>> > scale up.)
>> >
>> > -Steven
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 2
>> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:09:16 +1000
>> > From: "Selina Dennis" <selina at dennis.net.au>
>> > Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice -
tertiary links
>> > To: "'Year 12 Software Development Teachers'
Mailing List'"
>> > <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> > Message-ID:
<003801c8a0d7$aed8dd80$0c8a9880$@net.au>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
>> >
>> > I am both a Year 12 Software Development teacher
and a Computer
>> Science
>> > graduate - I completed my CS degree late in life,
circa 2005 - and
>> as
>> > someone who has worked in the IT industry since
1996, I must say
>> that I
>> > concur with Steven Bird's view that there is a
chasm between
>> secondary
>> > school teaching of IT and tertiary teaching of IT.
For students in
>> Year 12,
>> > the key components of software development that
they will "get the
>> most out
>> > of", is the theory behind algorithms, problem
solving, and also the
>> > development of their basic thinking skills. I've
been teaching
>> PHP/mySQL to
>> > my students this year and while most have come into
the course
>> having
>> > completed Year 10 and 11 IT, they still did not
have a basic
>> understanding
>> > of fundamental programming concepts at the start of
the year.
>> >
>> > Perhaps this is more of a "theological"
discussion on how to teach
>> > programming to teenagers, but it's also relevant to
note that much
>> of the
>> > theory that is being taught in Year 12 is rarely
used or developed
>> in either
>> > tertiary study or in industry. One such example is
diagrams - N-S
>> Diagrams,
>> > DFDs, etc have long been superseded by UML, both at
a university
>> level and
>> > in industry - as an aside, I had never heard of NS
diagrams until I
>> had to
>> > teach it in IPM, and I had worked with ISO-9000
compliant
>> corporations
>> > developing major software products.
>> >
>> > Similarly, the SDLC, as Steven has raised, is most
useful for
>> large-scale
>> > projects. Students will rarely experience the
benefit, nor the
>> relevance, of
>> > the SDLC, in a secondary school curriculum. More
useful theory
>> would be a
>> > more focused look at iterative design, extreme
programming (or any
>> other
>> > kind of agile software development), etc, and move
away from the
>> excessive
>> > documentation requirements that the SDLC brings to
the table.
>> >
>> > As a teacher, I would prefer to bring in key
aspects of the SDLC
>> without
>> > having to formally teach every part of it. For
example, a
>> concentration on
>> > testing and debugging of software - this is a
twofold benefit, as
>> it teaches
>> > students to be aware of how they choose to
implement functionality,
>> and also
>> > develops their analytical and observational skills
when they are
>> debugging
>> > an error. Bringing in Use Case Diagrams instead of
DFDs would be
>> fantastic,
>> > also, as it conceptually allows a student to think
through what
>> they are
>> > providing in their system before they develop it.
>> >
>> > In general, however, I have to say I am currently
much happier with
>> the core
>> > content of the Software Development course than I
was with the IT:
>> > Applications course, but I still believe that it
is, at its core,
>> dated and
>> > at times irrelevant. In a perfect world, we would
be teaching our
>> students
>> > "good practice" programming while also
preparing them for a future
>> path in
>> > IT if they so choose - both at the tertiary level
and in industry.
>> >
>> > </soapbox>
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Selina Dennis
>> > Strathmore Secondary College
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
>> > On Behalf Of Steven Bird
>> > Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:01 AM
>> > To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing
List
>> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice -
tertiary links
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends
>> <timmer at melbpc.org.au>
wrote:
>> >> I have to say that this discussion is heading
to Comp Sci circa
>> 1990
>> > (which
>> >> is not necessarily a bad thing)
>> >
>> > Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT
subject. The theory
>> on
>> > which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older
still, but no-one
>> > considers that dated.
>> >
>> >> but it seems to me that a couple of
>> >> questions need to be answered first:
>> >> 1. what do we want students to get out of
a technically-oriented
>> Y12 IT
>> > course?
>> >> 2. is the course primarily intended to
prepare students for
>> teritary,
>> > work, or both?
>> >
>> > Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is
foundational study,
>> > preparing students for whatever they choose to do
in future, even
>> if
>> > it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>> >
>> > For the students continuing from VCE Software
Development to a
>> degree
>> > in Software Engineering, we would prefer students
to have a solid
>> > grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the
associated
>> > programming skills. (The SDLC follows
naturally once they're ready
>> to
>> > scale up.)
>> >
>> > -Steven
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
>> > IT Software Development Mailing List kindly
supported by
>> > http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/>
- Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>> Authority
>> > and
>> >
>> ttp://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
-
>> VITTA
>> > Victorian Information Technology Teachers
Association Inc
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 3
>> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:20:04 +1000
>> > From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice -
tertiary links
>> > To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers'
Mailing List"
>> > <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> > Message-ID: <4807CD14.8060002 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed
>> >
>> > Yes - and we have to position VCE against VET,
which is the more
>> > practical, work-oriented stream.
>> >
>> > Frankly, I can't see SD being directly useful in
providing students
>> with
>> > workplace skills. It's simply not deep enough
in programming
>> skills -
>> > and it could never be in the time available.
And by the time the
>> kids
>> > took the tram from school to their first job, the
entire IT
>> industry
>> > would have had three technological revolutions in
the meantime, so
>> any
>> > language they learned would have been superseded.
>> >
>> > I see SD as giving students a taste of the mindset
of software
>> > development, to be developed later at uni or TAFE.
>> >
>> > 2.2c worth, and falling against the Yen.
>> >
>> > Timmer-Arends wrote:
>> >> I have to say that this discussion is heading
to Comp Sci circa
>> 1990 (which
>> >> is not necessarily a bad thing) but it seems to
me that a couple
>> of
>> >> questions need to be answered first:
>> >> 1. what do we want students to get out of a
technically-oriented
>> Y12 IT
>> >> course?
>> >> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare
students for
>> teritary,
>> >> work, or both?
>> >>
>> >> Regards
>> >> Robert T-A
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven
Bird"
>> <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>> >> To: "Year 12 Software Development
Teachers' Mailing List"
>> >> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> >> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:41 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice
- tertiary links
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> [Adrian -- thanks for picking a more
appropriate subject line now
>> that
>> >>> discussion has moved away from data flow
diagrams.]
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:28 PM, andrew
barry
>> <jagguy999 at gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>> I prefer to just teach an IT subject
which is just programming
>> and some
>> >>>> programming design eg psuedo code.
>> >>>
>> >>> I agree. Students should learn how to
walk before learning how
>> to
>> >>> run, i.e. they should be competent with
"programming
>> in-the-small"
>> >>> before they spend much time on
"programming in-the-large" (incl
>> SDLC).
>> >>>
>> >>>> Including so much theory doesn't get
any student excited about
>> learning
>> >>>> IT
>> >>>> at Uni. After all we are trying to
promote IT beyond yr12 are we
>> not?
>> >>>> Are
>> >>>> we
>> >>>> not trying to get more people to do it?
>> >>>
>> >>> I agree with Adrian that rigour is
important, and this cuts
>> across
>> >>> analysis, design, implementation,
documentation, etc. The SDLC
>> is one
>> >>> source of theory but I question its
suitability at this level.
>> It's
>> >>> intended for software engineering projects
where you have to
>> manage
>> >>> whole teams of developers, client
relationships, project
>> deliverables,
>> >>> etc. When students aren't already
experienced at small-scale
>> >>> programming the emphasis often falls on a
rather heavy document
>> >>> process, which has to be one of the least
exciting aspects of
>> software
>> >>> development.
>> >>>
>> >>> Another issue I have with the emphasis on
SDLC as a major source
>> of
>> >>> theoretical content is that it focusses too
much on the software
>> >>> development process. Of course that's
entirely appropriate given
>> the
>> >>> title of the subject, but there's some
other areas of computing
>> theory
>> >>> that would be useful and accessible at this
level, including
>> >>> algorithmic problem solving and the limits
of computing. Here's
>> a
>> >>> couple of introductory books that cover
these topics in a
>> >>> non-mathematical yet rigorous and
intellectually stimulating way:
>> >>>
>> >>> Algorithmics: The Spirit of Computing (3rd
Ed, David Harel,
>> Addison
>> >>> Wesley, 2004)
>> >>>
>> >>> Computers Ltd: What They Really Can't Do
(David Harel, Oxford
>> >>> University Press, 2000)
>> >>>
>> >>> -Steven Bird
>> >>> http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
>> >>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly
supported by
>> >>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian Curriculum and
Assessment
>> >>> Authority
>> >>> and
>> >>>
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
-
>> >>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology
Teachers Association Inc
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Mark Kelly
>> > Manager - Information Systems
>> > McKinnon Secondary College
>> > McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>> > Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
>> > School Phone +613 8520 9000
>> > School Fax +613 95789253
>> > kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>> >
>> > Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/>
>> > IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com <http://vceit.com/>
>> > Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>> >
>> > A conclusion is the place where you got sick of
thinking.
>> > If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > sofdev mailing list
>> > sofdev at edulists.com.au
>> > http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>> >
>> >
>> > End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>> > **************************************
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
<http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/> >
IT Software
>> > Development Mailing List kindly supported by
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>> > <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>> > -
>> > Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>> > http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au/>
<http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au/> >
- VITTA Victorian
>> > Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>> >
>> >
>> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > Checked by AVG.
>> > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1375 -
Release Date:
>> 12/04/2008 11:32 AM
>>
>> --
>> Mark Kelly
>> Manager - Information Systems
>> McKinnon Secondary College
>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>>
>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/>
>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com <http://vceit.com/>
>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>
>> Only those who swim against the current know the current
is there.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:04:52 +1000
>> From: "Meadows, Roslyn M" <Meadows.Roslyn.M at edumail.vic.gov.au>
>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice -
tertiary links
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing
List"
>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> Message-ID:
>>
>> <93564D1B69FCEC47BB2D847F7B0888DA0187937C at EDUSM03.education.vic.gov.au>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sofdev mailing list
>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>>
>>
>> End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
>> **************************************
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
<http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/> >IT
Software
>> Development Mailing List kindly supported by
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>> > - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
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>> http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au/>
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>
> --
> Mark Kelly
> Manager - Information Systems
> McKinnon Secondary College
> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>
> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/>
> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com <http://vceit.com/>
> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>
> Only those who swim against the current know the current is there.
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/>
- Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority
> and
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> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
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