[Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks (MarkKelly)

Thu Apr 24 09:29:59 EST 2008

Hi Andrew,

The numbers of students taking IT subjects needs to increase as we have a
demand for IT professionals in this country.  Students are not undertaking
IT courses for a variety of reasons - but I don't think that one of them is
the course content - as students do not know much about this until they
start the actual course.  

>Students can be aware of such issues in earlier years but  not VCE. If I do
physics do i do  a SAC on the social implications of devising nuclear
energy? or how  splitting the atom cuses more harm than good or in yr12
biology to we write essays on global warming?

As a teacher of physics - I have to say that the implications of the uses of
nuclear energy is actually part of the course - and is a very important part
of the course!  Otherwise we are delivering content and not 'teaching'.  In
effect, I feel that teaching without this reflection creates students (- in
fact, young people) without the skills to critically evaluate a topic.  In
the nuclear physics topic, I teach students the basics of building a nuclear
bomb.  Is this even ethical on it's own and in isolation?

>This type of thinking  with IT is harming it because students are confused
about what we think IT is. I used to teach at Tafe and Uni IT and It was
mostly hands on or if it was theory they just did a theory subject. You
don't get employed with weak skills and it is skills i want to teach and not
social issues in VCE IT. That is just my opinion and maybe others agree or
disagree.

Here is where your argument is flawed - especially in a subject like IT.
The skills that you are teaching are really a focus on process.  The
software and programming languages will have evolved by the time that your
students enter the workforce - and they will then be relying upon the
processes behind the creation of the software.  If you have focused purely
on skills - your students will not have the creative ability (and
programming IS a creative process and not a mechanical one).

In regards to the social issues of IT (and I take it you didn't catch the
excellent - but highly disturbing report on 60 minutes two weeks ago?) - I
feel it would socially irresponsible of us as educational leaders and the
ones towards which our students look for guidance - to simply ignore social
issues in this day and age.  

Cheers,

Adrian

Adrian Janson, 

VITTA President

Director of ICT, 

Melbourne High School, 

Forrest Hill, South Yarra 3141 Australia.

Phone: 03 9826 0711 International: +61 3 9826 0711

Fax: 03 9826 8767 International: +61 3 9826 8767

E-mail:  <mailto:janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au>
janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au

Website:  <http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au> http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au

Blog:  <http://jansona.edublogs.org/> http://jansona.edublogs.org

From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
On Behalf Of andrew barry
Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2008 7:58 PM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks
(MarkKelly)

Hi Adrian,

Well I can see forced change on the horizon by outside factors. 
You shouldn't try to devise a plan to just bulk up numbers but the numbers
need to increase. IF people are voting with their feet and then we need to
listen. 

>In maths you teach maths and in english you teach english. What maths sac
asks you to explain a legal consideration for the calculations or asks to
list any business considerations and document elaborate plans to reach an
answer? 

>Here is where I must strongly disagree with the stance that I (think) you
are making.  Our
students need to be aware of the legal issues and considerations involved in
this subject.  Watch the news almost any night of the week for evidence of
this.  If our SD students are to be the ICT leaders of tomorrow - then they
need to be properly equipped in this regard.

Students can be aware of such issues in earlier years but  not VCE. If I do
physics do i do  a SAC on the social implications of devising nuclear
energy? or how  splitting the atom cuses more harm than good or in yr12
biology to we write essays on global warming?

This type of thinking  with IT is harming it because students are confused
about what we think IT is. I used to teach at Tafe and Uni IT and It was
mostly hands on or if it was theory they just did a theory subject. You
don't get employed with weak skills and it is skills i want to teach and not
social issues in VCE IT. That is just my opinion and maybe others agree or
disagree.

On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Adrian Janson
<janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au> wrote:

Hi Andrew,

>The issue here is how to improve SD enrollment and relevance. The
government is itching for change and even the adopt a schools policy sees IT
as a major area . 

Agreed - however, I am not prepared to concede to a plan in which we design
curriculum merely to bulk up our numbers.

>Who is going to decide what we teach? business!

Business is a driver certainly - but the 'tail does not wag the dog'.  How
does business know what it needs?  Are the needs of business driven by the
'now' rather the 'future'?  

>In maths you teach maths and in english you teach english. What maths sac
asks you to explain a legal consideration for the calculations or asks to
list any business considerations and document elaborate plans to reach an
answer? 

Here is where I must strongly disagree with the stance that I (think) you
are making.  Our students need to be aware of the legal issues and
considerations involved in this subject.  Watch the news almost any night of
the week for evidence of this.  If our SD students are to be the ICT leaders
of tomorrow - then they need to be properly equipped in this regard.

>IT subjects should  just teach  programming and some design theory.

There is a lot more than programming in IT *(did I just say that!!??!).  The
SD course has a good balance between programming and design elements - and I
personally feel that that balance should be maintained.

Cheers,

Adrian

Adrian Janson, 

VITTA President

Director of ICT, 

Melbourne High School, 

Forrest Hill, South Yarra 3141 Australia.

Phone: 03 9826 0711 International: +61 3 9826 0711

Fax: 03 9826 8767 International: +61 3 9826 8767

E-mail: janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au

Website: http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au

Blog: http://jansona.edublogs.org <http://jansona.edublogs.org/> 

From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
On Behalf Of andrew barry
Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2008 5:25 PM

To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks
(MarkKelly)

The issue here is how to improve SD enrollment and relevance. The government
is itching for change and even the adopt a schools policy sees IT as a major
area . 

Who is going to decide what we teach? business!

In maths you teach maths and in english you teach english. What maths sac
asks you to explain a legal consideration for the calculations or asks to
list any business considerations and document elaborate plans to reach an
answer? 

Maths teaches maths and IT should teach IT and not IT/business models. Does
a maths sac ask for any historical q's about where the formulas come from?
Is maths well rounded ?

IT subjects should  just teach  programming and some design theory.

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:42 PM, Adrian Janson
<janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au> wrote:

Hi everyone,

"Teachers are NOT curriculum materials developers."

I have to say that this statement goes against everything that I believe.  I
have designed the Year 9 and Year 10 courses that I teach for IT - and I
revise and update them each year so that they are well suited to the cohort
that I teach.  Who best understands the needs of our students?  We each
do...  and when it comes to VCE - each one of us is passionate about what
content is best suited to the future prospects of our VCE students and the
discipline of ICT as a whole.  I for one and passionate about ICT and have
very definite views about what core skills ICT students need moving forward
- into a career path or their lives.

My 2c

Cheers,
Adrian

-----Original Message-----
From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]

On Behalf Of Timmer-Arends
Sent: Tuesday, 22 April 2008 6:25 PM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List

Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks
(MarkKelly)

>> Teachers are NOT curriculum materials developers.

Stephen, I can't agree with this statement either, simply because I believe
that is one of the crafts of being a teacher; ie being able to develop
material which will help convey concepts and skills to students (and that
might include dipping into whatever resources are available out there)

I had thought from earlier posts on this topic that you originally meant
that teachers should not be developing 'content'; ie deciding what skills
and knowledge students should have by the end of a year. And I have some
sympathy for this view - but maybe it's not what you meant in the first
place???

Anyway, I have come to the view that SDs need to be far more explicit and
specific about what knowledge/skills students should have by the end of Year

12. It is the final year of secondary enducation and I cannot see any other
way of guaranteeing any sort of standard. Providing flexibility in a course
so that teachers can meet the needs of their students is one thing (and
important), but allowing teachers to decide the depth themselves is
problematic, and I suspect leads to the exam becoming the standard setter,
and I don't know that that is a good thing.

Regards
Robert T-A
Brighton SC

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Kelly" <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
<sofdev at edulists.com.au>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks
(MarkKelly)

>
> Stephen Digby wrote:
>> Here here !!!
>> I say again.....
>>

>
> Oooh - I think we are.  But we often rely on textbook writers to save us
> doing it ourselves.  We still have to choose which materials we use.
>
>> It is the curriculum design authorities responsibility to provide
>> classroom teaching materials to teachers (preferably with a range of
>> options !).
>
> Is it?  This would come as a surprise to most curriculum design
> authorities - except the ones in China, perhaps.  If they DID provide
> anything more than sample teaching materials, I would be deeply worried
> about government interference.
>
>> It is teachers responsibility to understand the content and their
>> students so that they can use these materials to plan, prep, teach,
>> correct, and communicate
>> Inevitably teachers will tweak for their own class and discover
>> possibilities, alternatives, improvements.
>> The second responsibility of the curriculum design authority should be to

>> systematically collect and utilise this field testing to improve the
>> curriculum design.
>>  Two examples to show how simple these processes are:
>> - give the curriculum design to all publishers and ask for draft
>> responses in terms of classroom material support. Choose a single
>> publisher as the recommended support material for a definite period e.g
>> 3 years so that they have the chance to profit from their recommended
>> status.
>
> I can already hear the screaming about this one. One vital feature of
> education is the freedom to use a variety of suitable resources at the
> discretion of the student and teacher.
> Choosing a "preferred" publisher would cause sales of other 'unapproved'
> texts to evaporate, and considering the already-precarious IT textbook
> sales figures most other publishers would not bother releasing a text at
> all.
>
> This would, in effect, result in a single textbook and stifle the richness

> of available opinion and pedagogical style.  Publishers would be in
> revolt - quite justifiably.
>
> And how will the 'approved' text be chosen?  Do you expect VCAA to choose
> a publisher on the basis of a proposal and a sample chapter from
> publishers?  For that would be the only way it could work: VCAA would have

> no finished textbook to base its judgement on because NO publisher is
> going to pay authors to create a full text and submit it in the hope of
> being picked.  It just would not happen!
>
> And if the preferred text was later found to be flawed in some way, the
> VCAA would be partially culpable.  I don't think they want such problems
> being beaten to death on the nightly current affairs shows.
>
> The only 'DEECD preferred' suppliers are, and should remain to be, related

> to the supply of software, hardware and leasing services.  They must not
> extend to educational resources. If the VCAA started down this path they
> would be in a world of trouble.  I think this is why they are so chary
> about recommending any resources apart from their own - the exception
> being the last 2 pages of the study design.
>
>
>> Of course, a recommendation is not a compulsion, and schools may choose
>> not to use the recommended resources.  The likelihood that they be chosen

>> again will of course depend on the ongoing feedback re. the quality of
>> their resources and their continued support through the 3 years.
>> - require all teachers in all govt schools to provide copies of their sac

>> tasks with a sample answer from the teacher.  (No cost.  No copyright as
>> the work is owned by the government).  Select the best 50 and publish on
>> line (No Cost) as exemplars to assist teachers in Year 2.
>
> I bet VCAA is quite busy enough assessing the few tasks they call for
> during subject auditing.  If every SAC had to be independently judged, the

> VCAA would either collapse under the weight, or grow to rival the size of
> the public service sector of Bulgaria.  :-)
>>  etc etc etc
>
> But thanks for the interesting post, Stephen.  I'm sure it will stimulate
> discussion.
>>  ====================================================
>> Stephen Digby, Learning Technology Manager
>> mailto: digby.stephen.p at edumail.vic.gov.au
>> <mailto:digby.stephen.p at edumail.vic.gov.au>  Cheltenham Secondary College

>> www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au <http://www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au/>
>> Ph: 613 955 55 955  Fx: 9555 8617 Mb: 0431-701-028
>> ====================================================
>> The other day somebody stole everything in my apartment and replaced it
>> with an exact replica... When my roommate came home I said, "Roommate,
>> someone stole everything in our apartment and replaced it with an exact
>> replica." He looked at me and said, "Do I know you?" Steven Wright
>>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>     [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Russell Quinn
>>     *Sent:* Monday, 21 April 2008 10:33 AM
>>     *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>     *Subject:* [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary
>>     links (MarkKelly)
>>
>>     Hi again,
>>                  I am really sorry to be so negative all of the time but
>>     I find
>>     this an appalling situation and I cannot stay silent.
>>      What I have been constantly hearing through the mail
>>     is that we have SD teachers who don't know
>>     what to teach and don't know why they are teaching it.
>>     Rest assured, it is not the teaching staff I hold to account.
>>      Consider all of the wasted time, sleep and worry by teaching
>>     staff who should be devoting their time and energy into how to
>>     teach it, preparing great materials and assessing the students work.
>>     Instead we have people running around in circles trying to work
>>     out what to do.
>>      No wonder people are not keen to write their own SAC's.
>>     Apparently the VCAA is quite happy with the status quo. I look
>> forward to making a positive contribution soon.
>>      Russell Quinn
>>      Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>>     *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 10:06 PM
>>     *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>     *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
>>
>>     Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
>>     sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>
>>     To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>     http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>>     or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>     sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>>
>>     You can reach the person managing the list at
>>     sofdev-owner at edulists.com.au
>>
>>     When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>     than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>>
>>
>>     Today's Topics:
>>
>>        1. Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
>>        2. RE: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links  (Meadows, Roslyn M)
>>
>>
>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>     Message: 1
>>     Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:40:09 +1000
>>     From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>>     Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
>>     To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>     <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>     Message-ID: <48088899.8050808 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>>     Maybe the first thing to do is to decide what VCE SD is for.
>>
>>     What is it meant to achieve?
>>
>>     Is it meant to be a preparation for tertiary study?
>>     Is it meant to be a skills-based preparation for work?
>>     Is it meant to be a fun 12 months until uni begins?
>>     Is it meant to give hope to kids who are unqualified for any other
>> VCE
>>     subject?
>>
>>     I'm sure the VCAA has a good answer to this. It would be interesting
>> to
>>     hear it. Then, maybe, we can start re-defining SD - and ITA.
>>
>>     That's assuming VCE IT NEEDS to be redefined...
>>
>>     Which is maybe a good place for the review of the VCE IT Study Design

>> to
>>     begin...
>>
>>     And when it does, Paula, I hope it's virtual rather than with
>> meetings
>>     in the city.  I'd much rather sit at home with a glass of Cab Sav and
>>     take time to ponder the intricacies of an argument, do research, and
>>     fast-forward through the boring people - rather than commute to the
>> big
>>     smoke and sit with a dozen passionate people all determined to get a
>>     word in edgewise within an hour so no-one's argument can get fully
>>     thought-out, crafted and developed in its entirety.
>>
>>     Oooh! Saint Kilda's winning.  Must go...
>>
>>     Russell Quinn wrote:
>>     > The first thing  would be inclined to do is throw out all of the
>>     > networking -
>>     > which is totally irrelevant to software development (except to a
>> small and
>>     > select few specialists) and replace it with actual software
>> development.
>>     >
>>     > I also think the obsession with the business models should be
>> downplayed,
>>     > and the scenario's broadened to something far more interesting.
>> After
>>     > all, business
>>     > is just one of the reasons for writing software, and not a very
>>     > interesting one at that.
>>     >
>>     > It appears that students are voting with their feet, and I can see
>> their
>>     > point.
>>     > The only way to plug the leak is to make the courses software based

>> and
>>     > interesting.
>>     >
>>     > Russell Quinn
>>     >
>>     > Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>>     >
>>     >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     > *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>>     > *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 12:00 PM
>>     > *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>     > *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>>     >
>>     > Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
>>     > sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>     >
>>     > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>     > http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>>     > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>     > sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>>     >
>>     > You can reach the person managing the list at
>>     > sofdev-owner at edulists.com.au
>>     >
>>     > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>     > than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > Today's Topics:
>>     >
>>     >    1. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Steven Bird)
>>     >    2. RE: Industry practice - tertiary links (Selina Dennis)
>>     >    3. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     >
>>     > Message: 1
>>     > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:00:37 +1000
>>     > From: "Steven Bird" <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>>     > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>     > To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>     > <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>     > Message-ID:
>>     > <97e4e62e0804171400q6bf98a9fq3acd059906fe980 at mail.gmail.com>
>>     > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>     >
>>     > On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends
>> <timmer at melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>>     >> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa
>> 1990 (which
>>     >>  is not necessarily a bad thing)
>>     >
>>     > Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject.  The theory

>> on
>>     > which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
>>     > considers that dated.
>>     >
>>     >> but it seems to me that a couple of
>>     >> questions need  to be answered first:
>>     >>  1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented
>> Y12 IT course?
>>     >>  2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for
>> teritary, work, or both?
>>     >
>>     > Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
>>     > preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even
>> if
>>     > it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>>     >
>>     > For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a
>> degree
>>     > in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
>>     > grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
>>     > programming skills.  (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready

>> to
>>     > scale up.)
>>     >
>>     > -Steven
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > ------------------------------
>>     >
>>     > Message: 2
>>     > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:09:16 +1000
>>     > From: "Selina Dennis" <selina at dennis.net.au>
>>     > Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>     > To: "'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'"
>>     > <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>     > Message-ID: <003801c8a0d7$aed8dd80$0c8a9880$@net.au>
>>     > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>     >
>>     > I am both a Year 12 Software Development teacher and a Computer
>> Science
>>     > graduate - I completed my CS degree late in life, circa 2005 - and
>> as
>>     > someone who has worked in the IT industry since 1996, I must say
>> that I
>>     > concur with Steven Bird's view that there is a chasm between
>> secondary
>>     > school teaching of IT and tertiary teaching of IT. For students in
>> Year 12,
>>     > the key components of software development that they will "get the
>> most out
>>     > of", is the theory behind algorithms, problem solving, and also the
>>     > development of their basic thinking skills. I've been teaching
>> PHP/mySQL to
>>     > my students this year and while most have come into the course
>> having
>>     > completed Year 10 and 11 IT, they still did not have a basic
>> understanding
>>     > of fundamental programming concepts at the start of the year.
>>     >
>>     > Perhaps this is more of a "theological" discussion on how to teach
>>     > programming to teenagers, but it's also relevant to note that much
>> of the
>>     > theory that is being taught in Year 12 is rarely used or developed
>> in either
>>     > tertiary study or in industry. One such example is diagrams - N-S
>> Diagrams,
>>     > DFDs, etc have long been superseded by UML, both at a university
>> level and
>>     > in industry - as an aside, I had never heard of NS diagrams until I

>> had to
>>     > teach it in IPM, and I had worked with ISO-9000 compliant
>> corporations
>>     > developing major software products.
>>     >
>>     > Similarly, the SDLC, as Steven has raised, is most useful for
>> large-scale
>>     > projects. Students will rarely experience the benefit, nor the
>> relevance, of
>>     > the SDLC, in a secondary school curriculum. More useful theory
>> would be a
>>     > more focused look at iterative design, extreme programming (or any
>> other
>>     > kind of agile software development), etc, and move away from the
>> excessive
>>     > documentation requirements that the SDLC brings to the table.
>>     >
>>     > As a teacher, I would prefer to bring in key aspects of the SDLC
>> without
>>     > having to formally teach every part of it. For example, a
>> concentration on
>>     > testing and debugging of software - this is a twofold benefit, as
>> it teaches
>>     > students to be aware of how they choose to implement functionality,

>> and also
>>     > develops their analytical and observational skills when they are
>> debugging
>>     > an error. Bringing in Use Case Diagrams instead of DFDs would be
>> fantastic,
>>     > also, as it conceptually allows a student to think through what
>> they are
>>     > providing in their system before they develop it.
>>     >
>>     > In general, however, I have to say I am currently much happier with

>> the core
>>     > content of the Software Development course than I was with the IT:
>>     > Applications course, but I still believe that it is, at its core,
>> dated and
>>     > at times irrelevant. In a perfect world, we would be teaching our
>> students
>>     > "good practice" programming while also preparing them for a future
>> path in
>>     > IT if they so choose - both at the tertiary level and in industry.
>>     >
>>     > </soapbox>
>>     >
>>     > Regards,
>>     >
>>     > Selina Dennis
>>     > Strathmore Secondary College
>>     >
>>     > -----Original Message-----
>>     > From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
>>     > On Behalf Of Steven Bird
>>     > Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:01 AM
>>     > To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>     > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>     >
>>     > On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends
>> <timmer at melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>>     >> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa
>> 1990
>>     > (which
>>     >>  is not necessarily a bad thing)
>>     >
>>     > Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject.  The theory

>> on
>>     > which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
>>     > considers that dated.
>>     >
>>     >> but it seems to me that a couple of
>>     >> questions need  to be answered first:
>>     >>  1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented
>> Y12 IT
>>     > course?
>>     >>  2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for
>> teritary,
>>     > work, or both?
>>     >
>>     > Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
>>     > preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even
>> if
>>     > it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>>     >
>>     > For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a
>> degree
>>     > in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
>>     > grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
>>     > programming skills.  (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready

>> to
>>     > scale up.)
>>     >
>>     > -Steven
>>     > _______________________________________________
>>     > http://www.edulists.com.au
>>     > IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>     > http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>> Authority
>>     > and
>>     >
>> ttp://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html  -
>> VITTA
>>     > Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > ------------------------------
>>     >
>>     > Message: 3
>>     > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:20:04 +1000
>>     > From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>>     > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>     > To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>     > <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>     > Message-ID: <4807CD14.8060002 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>>     > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>     >
>>     > Yes - and we have to position VCE against VET, which is the more
>>     > practical, work-oriented stream.
>>     >
>>     > Frankly, I can't see SD being directly useful in providing students

>> with
>>     > workplace skills.  It's simply not deep enough in programming
>> skills -
>>     > and it could never be in the time available.  And by the time the
>> kids
>>     > took the tram from school to their first job, the entire IT
>> industry
>>     > would have had three technological revolutions in the meantime, so
>> any
>>     > language they learned would have been superseded.
>>     >
>>     > I see SD as giving students a taste of the mindset of software
>>     > development, to be developed later at uni or TAFE.
>>     >
>>     > 2.2c worth, and falling against the Yen.
>>     >
>>     > Timmer-Arends wrote:
>>     >> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa
>> 1990 (which
>>     >> is not necessarily a bad thing) but it seems to me that a couple
>> of
>>     >> questions need  to be answered first:
>>     >> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented
>> Y12 IT
>>     >> course?
>>     >> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for
>> teritary,
>>     >> work, or both?
>>     >>
>>     >> Regards
>>     >> Robert T-A
>>     >>
>>     >>
>>     >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Bird"
>> <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>>     >> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>     >> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>     >> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:41 AM
>>     >> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>     >>
>>     >>
>>     >>> [Adrian -- thanks for picking a more appropriate subject line now

>> that
>>     >>> discussion has moved away from data flow diagrams.]
>>     >>>
>>     >>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:28 PM, andrew barry
>> <jagguy999 at gmail.com>
>>     >>> wrote:
>>     >>>> I prefer to just teach an IT subject which is just programming
>> and some
>>     >>>> programming design eg psuedo code.
>>     >>>
>>     >>> I agree.  Students should learn how to walk before learning how
>> to
>>     >>> run, i.e. they should be competent with "programming
>> in-the-small"
>>     >>> before they spend much time on "programming in-the-large" (incl
>> SDLC).
>>     >>>
>>     >>>> Including so much theory doesn't get any student excited about
>> learning
>>     >>>> IT
>>     >>>> at Uni. After all we are trying to promote IT beyond yr12 are we

>> not?
>>     >>>> Are
>>     >>>> we
>>     >>>> not trying to get more people to do it?
>>     >>>
>>     >>> I agree with Adrian that rigour is important, and this cuts
>> across
>>     >>> analysis, design, implementation, documentation, etc.  The SDLC
>> is one
>>     >>> source of theory but I question its suitability at this level.
>> It's
>>     >>> intended for software engineering projects where you have to
>> manage
>>     >>> whole teams of developers, client relationships, project
>> deliverables,
>>     >>> etc.  When students aren't already experienced at small-scale
>>     >>> programming the emphasis often falls on a rather heavy document
>>     >>> process, which has to be one of the least exciting aspects of
>> software
>>     >>> development.
>>     >>>
>>     >>> Another issue I have with the emphasis on SDLC as a major source
>> of
>>     >>> theoretical content is that it focusses too much on the software
>>     >>> development process.  Of course that's entirely appropriate given

>> the
>>     >>> title of the subject, but there's some other areas of computing
>> theory
>>     >>> that would be useful and accessible at this level, including
>>     >>> algorithmic problem solving and the limits of computing.  Here's
>> a
>>     >>> couple of introductory books that cover these topics in a
>>     >>> non-mathematical yet rigorous and intellectually stimulating way:
>>     >>>
>>     >>> Algorithmics: The Spirit of Computing (3rd Ed, David Harel,
>> Addison
>>     >>> Wesley, 2004)
>>     >>>
>>     >>> Computers Ltd: What They Really Can't Do (David Harel, Oxford
>>     >>> University Press, 2000)
>>     >>>
>>     >>> -Steven Bird
>>     >>> http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/
<http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/%7Esb/> 
>>     >>> _______________________________________________
>>     >>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>>     >>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>     >>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>     >>> Authority
>>     >>> and
>>     >>>
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html  -
>>     >>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > --
>>     > Mark Kelly
>>     > Manager - Information Systems
>>     > McKinnon Secondary College
>>     > McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>>     > Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
>>     > School Phone +613 8520 9000
>>     > School Fax +613 95789253
>>     > kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>     >
>>     > Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>     > IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
>>     > Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>     >
>>     > A conclusion is the place where you got sick of thinking.
>>     > If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > ------------------------------
>>     >
>>     > _______________________________________________
>>     > sofdev mailing list
>>     > sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>     > http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>>     > **************************************
>>     >
>>     > _______________________________________________
>>     > http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au> IT Software
>>     > Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>     > http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>>     > <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html

>>  > -
>>     > Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>>     > http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au> - VITTA Victorian
>>     > Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     >
>>     > No virus found in this incoming message.
>>     > Checked by AVG.
>>     > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1375 - Release Date:
>> 12/04/2008 11:32 AM
>>
>>     --
>>     Mark Kelly
>>     Manager - Information Systems
>>     McKinnon Secondary College
>>     kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>     McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>>     Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>>
>>     Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>     IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
>>     Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>
>>     Only those who swim against the current know the current is there.
>>
>>
>>     ------------------------------
>>
>>     Message: 2
>>     Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:04:52 +1000
>>     From: "Meadows, Roslyn M" <Meadows.Roslyn.M at edumail.vic.gov.au>
>>     Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
>>     To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>     <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>     Message-ID:
>>
>> <93564D1B69FCEC47BB2D847F7B0888DA0187937C at EDUSM03.education.vic.gov.au>
>>
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>>     ------------------------------
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     sofdev mailing list
>>     sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>     http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>>
>>
>>     End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
>>     **************************************
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au>IT Software
>>     Development Mailing List kindly supported by
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>>     <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>>      > - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>>     http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au>- VITTA Victorian
>>     Information Technology Teachers Association Inc *Important - *This
>> email and any attachments may be confidential. If received in error,
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>> and not necessarily those of the Department of Education and Early
>> Childhood Development.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au> IT Software
>> Development Mailing List kindly supported by
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>> <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html > -
>> Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>> http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au> - VITTA Victorian
>> Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
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>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
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>
> --
> Mark Kelly
> Manager - Information Systems
> McKinnon Secondary College
> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>
> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>
> Only those who swim against the current know the current is there.
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.edulists.com.au
> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority

> and
> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html  -
> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc

_______________________________________________
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IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
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_______________________________________________
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IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
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