[Yr7-10it] Scratch, Gamemaker, VB.net, Python, PHP and MySQL - Programming for all levels

[Costello, Rob R]

Hi Bill and all 

I agree "purist vs ICT user" is not quite the right polarity - it felt a
little loose when I used it. Let me try again by substituting it with
"breadth vs depth". 

My feeling - and I gather its been well discussed in this forum - is
that "ICT" is increasingly being colonised by a "competent user"
(breadth) approach 

(breadth = competent user = teach kids how to blog, use wikis, use other
web2.0 tools, teach them some sort of critical literacy in this domain,
how to be productive users of software apps.  In this view ICT is an
interdisciplinary, facilitating thing that crops up in every other
discipline. ICT as a stand alone discipline is seen as "old school" from
this angle - when you only touched a computer in a lab and used for
programming)

Whereas a "depth" approach = IT as a technical discipline in its own
right - relating to computer science and programming, parallel
complexity to say maths - but maybe more engaging for some. Set kids on
a path where they might learn how to build their own software. ICT
deserves to be treated as a discipline in its own right from this angle
- and programming is an essential key to innovation, control and
customisation of software 

That was kind of polarity I had in my head when I said "purist vs ict
user" - (not really meaning "purist" as a strict computer science
approach versus a less rigorous programming approach - but whether its
worth broaching programming at all)

I would still see Gamemaker as rather hybrid - more towards the "depth"
end , since it does build some programming skill - but enough appeal to
compete against the breadth approaches. (and with big jump into the
coding side, it does allow you to also go deep - though I suspect the
jump is not too easy) 

I'm wired towards defending programming as a worthy pursuit 

But I can see that ICT as breadth also has merit - it does fit well as
an enabling tool in all disciplines

Too much depth - like forcing quadratics on every kid for the sake of
the few who ever manage to use that skill

But removing programming - like removing higher maths since its too dry 

(and I wonder if that might be less of a problem in todays economy, than
losing programming) 

Given VELS is meant to encourage depth, and remove the "breadth" of
superficial coverage of half digested material, its maybe ironic its
used (maybe improperly) to suggest the "depth" approaches to ICT are
outdated 

Cheers 

Rob 
PS I read this in digest mode, so sorry if truncating the subject made
it tricky to follow for those who use email threads properly 

  ----- Original Message -----
  To: Year 7 - 10 Information Technology Teachers' Mailing List
  Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 6:55 AM
  Subject: Re: [Yr7-10it] Scratch, Gamemaker, VB.net, Python,PHP and
MySQL - Programming for all levels


  Hi Kevork,

  well I've tried for 2-3 days to resist responding but in the end I
haven't been successful :-)

  the tipping point is that rob used the word "purist" too in the thread
he started

  [quote from rob in other thread] -
  I feel a bit like I've found a combination of ICT and philosophical
thinking that seems, in any given school, to be a minority (the "lets
just use the stuff" approach / use some app with low entry and high
graphics or communication payoff - seems to dominate. That whole tension
is one I'd like to investigate - I'm not unsympathetic to that approach
for lots of kids - gamemaker is a good hybrid between the two (purist vs
ICT user)
  [/quote]

  that is one thing that intrigued me about your reply: that you used
the word "purist"  to describe what I described as an educational
approach to the use of computers

  One aim is to try to get at your thinking behind this use of language
and the other language we use wrt computers in schools (?)

  Initially the thinking behind teachers introducing game maker (to
focus on that for a sec) was far from purist

  key words here would be - engagement, motivational

  advocates of game maker have been criticised for their lack of purity,
for their capitulation to vulgar populism eg. see Kent's comments in
this thread

  go back a few years and the educational flavour of the decade was logo

  key words here would be - epistemology or more accurately "genetic
epistemology" (from Piaget) and papert invented a new one,
"constructionism" (mmm ... not recognised by my spell checker, it has
become a rare beast)

  these are difficult words but do have some sort of real basis in
educational thinking - it's not really fair to describe this approach as
purist

  some have argued and produced research studies that logo didn't work
(eg. Roy Pea) in achieving its stated goals - but that's a big
discussion really

  My point is about the language we use in describing computer use in
schools - what I think is that this tends to reflect metaphors of the
computer we have internalised

  I see this as -
  obstacles to introducing a child centered developmental approach to
the use of computers in schools

  Maybe it's "idealist" in some way because the prevailing ethos is very
much "some other way" - labels might include vocational, administrative,
data management thinking, hardware / networking focus, VELS etc.

  I like rob's approach of exploring the tension b/w existing approaches
but don't like the way rob has described the poles of the tension
(purist vs ICT user)

  I'd prefer something like -
  educational versus vocational
  or
  epistemological versus instrumentalist

  "explore the tension" - good phrase rob

  Kevork, I liked this reality check from you -
  "if we are looking at what is the best programming language for
children to learn in Period 1, and in Period 2 we are teaching students
VET IT and what they need to go out and work in industry next year and
the period after that we are teaching Cisco students how to set up a
network in the "real" world through a simulated or school based problem
then you will forgive my oversight if I stray into what is needed in
industry as part of what they are doing. Maybe I am suffering VET
fatigue."

  and there have been other such recent comments, eg
  "I don't have time to learn a new programming language"

  cheers,
  - Bill

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