[Yr7-10it] Scratch, Gamemaker, VB.net, Python, PHP and MySQL- Programming for all levels

Wed Sep 19 13:12:39 EST 2007

OK, soap box time!
Tell the kids that good skills in IT will get them to a stage that many employers will PAY GOOD MONEY when and if they employ them. Also, the opportunities for travel, see the world blah blah blah open up to them if they get good enough. Sorry, but this really is true. It is also true that they must stick at it for more than the attention span of a fish. I'm over trying to spend all my time telling them why rather than what.

Old fart signing off.
KB.

Kent Beveridge,
I.T. co-ordinator
St. Brigids Catholic Sec. College
Horsham
email.. kbeveridge at stbc.vic.edu.au

|<3|\|7  b3\/3r1D93 ?  ;-)

Wishes and Eggs, one you make and one you break!  A bit like promises.....
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________________________________

From: yr7-10it-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Alida Bonotto
Sent: Wed 9/19/2007 12:31 PM
To: Year 7 - 10 Information Technology Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Yr7-10it] Scratch, Gamemaker, VB.net, Python, PHP and MySQL- Programming for all levels

Russell Edwards wrote:
" I believe a *basic* (pre-VCE, GameMaker-level) of programming
experience makes them better able to understand how software works. 
Also, learning programming at any level helps to develop generic,
transferrable cognitive skills in much the same way as the mathematics
most students learn but will never use once they leave school. (which,
by the way, I think is much better than explicitly trying to teach
conscious "thinking strategies".)
So I'd say it's still worth trying to teach them programming, but don't
stress out about externalities : "what they need to know" to get a job,
succeed at uni, whatever."

I have problems with some of the ideas here! I agree that programming
teaches students transferable cognitive skills (and keeps the VELS
Thinking Processes Domain happy) but how do you sell this to students? 
I strongly believe that you need to give students sound, convincing
reasons as to why they are required to study something - you have to
convince them that it is worth their while. I have seen teachers give
students the nebulous "it improves your thinking skills" argument and
it's fallen totally flat.
I have explicitly taught thinking philosophies - and it has worked
because I could relate them to the students' real life experiences and
so convinced them that they were learning valuable skills. You can sell
Habits of Mind, CoRT thinking, etc much more easily to students than the
lofty "it improves your thinking skills" line. Students don't mind being
trained in "how to think", as long as it is done in steps that they can
understand, that relate to the real world, that they can achieve and see
as being worthwhile (and it's a whole school approach - but that's
another story).
Russell states "don't stress out about externalities : "what they need
to know" to get a job, succeed at uni, whatever." - but that is exactly
what many students consider. We can downplay it as much as we like, but
they won't. So rather than shoving it under the carpet we are better off
asking - how do we work with it so that it's in our favour?
IT still has a public nerd/geek image that is unappealing, and teenagers
value image.
The small percentage of students who are keen programmers don't need
convincing to take on senior IT. The declining number of senior students
taking on IT programming indicates that there is a major PR problem -
someone, somewhere has failed to convince these students that IT
programming is worth pursuing. Let's be blunt, is it worth studying?
Yes? Then what strong, compelling arguments will you offer to entice
teenagers? What do teenagers want from IT?
Is senior IT giving teenagers what they want? Apparently not. If we want
the subject to survive then what will we do?

> Thanks everyone for this interesting discussion I've only just got
> around to reading.
>
> On 19/09/2007, at 8:37 AM, Kevork Krozian wrote:
>>  Outcome for students: They found it a struggle. Only the top end
>> managed to survive due to a lack of time.
>
> I think this reflects something that was said earlier:
>
>> On 17/09/2007, at 9:23 PM, Costello, Rob R wrote:
>>> I remember reading something David Perkins said - that in his
>>> observations - circa 1985 - none of the budding student programmers he
>>> observed had arrived at any competence without a huge personal
>>> investment of time
>
> This reflects my experience, too. At uni (comp sci hons degree) there
> was a real bimodal distribution of ability. There were those who
> pursued programming as a hobby, skipped lectures, whipped up the work
> in a fraction of the allocated time, and topped the class.  Then there
> was the rest, who weren't necessarily any less intelligent but simply
> hadn't spent all their free time for the last ten years teaching
> themselves programming. They all struggled quite severely. There was
> not much in the way of middle ground, students who were comfortably
> operating at the "good" or "very good" level.
>
> The high-achieving group made up perhaps one quarter to one half of
> the honours year cohort, so I'd guess one fifth of 3rd year comp sci
> majors and perhaps one fifteenth of first year programming enrolments.
> Being perhaps a little cruel but pragmatic, most of the other students
> would never have reached a level of competence that would enable them
> to be effective professional programmers.    Moving to high school IT
> enrollments, in my school at least the fraction was probably zero--
> the curriculum was so far beneath the computer geeks that none of them
> bothered to even do VCE IT.
>
> Now, this was in the mid-90s. If anything, with year 12 retention
> rates and uni enrollment rates on the rise, the proportion of "not
> suitable for programming" students can only have risen in the last
> decade.
>
> So, why bother teaching them programming?
>
>  Well, certainly not because they are all potential professional
> programmers---far from it!
>
>  I believe a *basic* (pre-VCE, GameMaker-level) of programming
> experience makes them better able to understand how software works. 
> Also, learning programming at any level helps to develop generic,
> transferrable cognitive skills in much the same way as the mathematics
> most students learn but will never use once they leave school. (which,
> by the way, I think is much better than explicitly trying to teach
> conscious "thinking strategies".)
>
> So I'd say it's still worth trying to teach them programming, but
> don't stress out about externalities : "what they need to know" to get
> a job, succeed at uni, whatever.  Just move them forward at a
> comfortable rate from whenever they're currently at... which brings us
> back to constructivism!
>
> cheers
>
> Russell Edwards
> Whittlesea SC
>
>
>
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