[Yr7-10it] Scratch, Gamemaker, VB.net, Python, PHP and MySQL - Programming for all levels

Wed Sep 19 06:55:48 EST 2007

Hi Kevork,

well I've tried for 2-3 days to resist responding but in the end I haven't
been successful :-)

the tipping point is that rob used the word "purist" too in the thread he
started

[quote from rob in other thread] -
I feel a bit like I've found a combination of ICT and philosophical thinking
that seems, in any given school, to be a minority (the "lets just use the
stuff" approach / use some app with low entry and high graphics or
communication payoff - seems to dominate. That whole tension is one I'd like
to investigate - I'm not unsympathetic to that approach for lots of kids -
gamemaker is a good hybrid between the two (purist vs ICT user)
[/quote]

that is one thing that intrigued me about your reply: that you used the word
"purist"  to describe what I described as an educational approach to the use
of computers

One aim is to try to get at your thinking behind this use of language and
the other language we use wrt computers in schools (?)

Initially the thinking behind teachers introducing game maker (to focus on
that for a sec) was far from purist

key words here would be - engagement, motivational

advocates of game maker have been criticised for their lack of purity, for
their capitulation to vulgar populism eg. see Kent's comments in this thread

go back a few years and the educational flavour of the decade was logo

key words here would be - epistemology or more accurately "genetic
epistemology" (from Piaget) and papert invented a new one, "constructionism"
(mmm ... not recognised by my spell checker, it has become a rare beast)

these are difficult words but do have some sort of real basis in educational
thinking - it's not really fair to describe this approach as purist

some have argued and produced research studies that logo didn't work (eg.
Roy Pea) in achieving its stated goals - but that's a big discussion really

My point is about the language we use in describing computer use in schools
- what I think is that this tends to reflect metaphors of the computer we
have internalised

I see this as -
obstacles to introducing a child centered developmental approach to the use
of computers in schools

Maybe it's "idealist" in some way because the prevailing ethos is very much
"some other way" - labels might include vocational, administrative, data
management thinking, hardware / networking focus, VELS etc.

I like rob's approach of exploring the tension b/w existing approaches but
don't like the way rob has described the poles of the tension (purist vs ICT
user)

I'd prefer something like -
educational versus vocational
or
epistemological versus instrumentalist

"explore the tension" - good phrase rob

Kevork, I liked this reality check from you -
"if we are looking at what is the best programming language for children to
learn in Period 1, and in Period 2 we are teaching students VET IT and what
they need to go out and work in industry next year and the period after that
we are teaching Cisco students how to set up a network in the "real" world
through a simulated or school based problem then you will forgive my
oversight if I stray into what is needed in industry as part of what they
are doing. Maybe I am suffering VET fatigue."

and there have been other such recent comments, eg
"I don't have time to learn a new programming language"

cheers,
- Bill

On 9/17/07, Kevork Krozian <kevork at edulists.com.au> wrote:
>
>  Hi Bill,
>
>  I take your point about the purist approach rather than let the market
> dictate what is good for me.
> Having said that, it wasn't my intention to knock down python or scratch -
> just to show their level of pervasiveness. I know, most used doesn't mean
> the best.
>
> I taught Python to my year 11s this year and PHP with MySQL to my year
> 12s. Some of my 11s actually managed to get Python to work with the MySQL
> backend as well.
> At one point in my professional life I REALLY wanted to make sure my
> students understood the way a half adder and a full adder worked with the
> truth tables, before they wrote a line of code. Yes, they had to understand
> how XOR gates worked or else they didn't deserve the luxury of using
> software to carry out arithmetic operations.
>
> Nowadays, I tell them that they are unlikely to ever worry about how that
> works in their professional life. Perhaps off on a tangent, but if we are
> looking at what is the best programming language for children to learn in
> Period 1, and in Period 2 we are teaching students VET IT and what they need
> to go out and work in industry next year and the period after that we are
> teaching Cisco students how to set up a network in the "real" world through
> a simulated or school based problem then you will forgive my oversight if I
> stray into what is needed in industry as part of what they are doing. Maybe
> I am suffering VET fatigue.
>
> In year 11, where students may be taking programming for the first time
> ever, the assessment requires that students look at IT Pathways of their
> chosen language and problem scenario as it exists in the market place.
>
> I do long for the good old days where I could teach machine language, then
> assembly, then Pascal, then a 4GL and insist on the correct use of data
> types, structures and avoidance of type mismatches and probe with a purely
> inquiry based approach to what is the most educationally suitable language
> for students.
> Sadly, it is a luxury I simply don't have anymore.
>
> I have put on my safety helmet in anticipation of the upcoming assault on
> my betrayal of my educational calling........   :))))
>
> Take Care
> Kevork Krozian
> Edulists Creator and Administrator
> www.edulists.com.au
> kevork at edulists.com.au
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Bill Kerr <billkerr at gmail.com>
> *To:* Year 7 - 10 Information Technology Teachers' Mailing List<yr7-10it at edulists.com.au>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 17, 2007 3:52 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Yr7-10it] Scratch, Gamemaker, VB.net, Python,PHP and MySQL
> - Programming for all levels
>
> On 9/17/07, Kevork Krozian <Kroset at novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au> wrote:
>
> > Check out http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm for a "league table" of language
> > popularity.
> > The order of popularity starting from the top is Java, C , (Visual)
> > Basic, PHP ....    with python at Number 8.
> > Scratch is 2new to be listed it seems - even in the top 50.
>
>
> Kevork,
> It worries me that you present this league table in the context of a
> discussion about the merits of  programming languages for children, without
> seeing the need for an accompanying argument.
>
> I point this out not just to be difficult but because I don't agree with
> the unstated implication that vocational factors ought to trump educational
> factors - surely something else needs to be said when such as table is
> presented?
>
> ie. what weight ought to be assigned to the league table
> note their disclaimer: "Observe that the TIOBE index is not about the *
> best* programming language or the language in which *most lines of code*have been written."
> http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
>
> I would have thought that Harvard University using scratch as an
> introduction to their Java programming course ought to count for something
>
> --
> Bill Kerr
> http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/
> http://www.users.on.net/~billkerr/ <http://www.users.on.net/%7Ebillkerr/>
> skype: billkerr2006 _______________________________________________
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-- 
Bill Kerr
http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/
http://www.users.on.net/~billkerr/
skype: billkerr2006
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