[Systems Engineering Teachers' Mailing List] syseng Digest, Vol 125, Issue 3

Thu Feb 11 15:45:39 AEDT 2016

Further Thoughts

The use of mains powered equipment that was wired by students was prohibited in around 1988. 
The subject was known as Electrical and Electronics Practices until Systems Technology was introduced in 1991. 
The then Head of the Board of studies for  Electrical and Electronics Practices was Graham Gibson. 
Around 1987 is was brought to his attention that the only people legally allowed to wire up mains powered projects were qualified electricians and apprentices under supervision. 

After negotiating with the SEC, a course was established to qualify teachers in a manner that would allow their students to wire up mains projects under their supervision. Everything fell apart during the initial stages of the course when we were informed the any projects that were constructed had to adhere strictly to the plans that would be provided to the teacher. Nothing in the plans could be modified at all. You could not even move the position of a single hole as it would not comply with SEC regulations. The restrictions placed on projects meant that students could not even change the lettering on the front panel of an amplifier.
We were also informed that even if a qualified electrician was given the task of doing the wiring of a student's project it would not address the problem of students working on mains powered projects and their use after the project left the school.

With Design becoming a significant factor in Technology this would have meant that students could no longer have any design input into a project. At this point the course was abandoned.

We were all instructed that any project that required connection to the mains was illegal and therefore forbidden. The maximum voltage that students could use in their projects was 32v and any projects that produced more voltage than 50v were banned. No Tesla coils or steady hand projects that produced a shock to the user when they made an error while guiding a loop along a length of wire.

There have been many instructions regarding what is not legal for students to make issued to teachers over the 36 years I have been teaching. 

Each time Management changes, these instructions seem to disappear and it is only teachers who have been affected who know what they are. Any new teachers start from scratch, with no understanding of previous regulations. It is no wonder that these sorts of questions re-appear  at regular intervals.

 In 1997 I had a student make a 1/3 scale dragster with a Honda 4 1000cc, with disc brakes. He designed the everything and it was a fantastic project. He is now a mechanic in Formula1.
I was also well informed about motorised vehicles during that time and my students were making electric and petrol driven scooters and I made sure they conformed to TRB regulations. 

Around this time I was informed by the department's legal representative who visited my school, that no matter what sort of permission form I had my students sign they would not cover me in court, so I abandoned these types of projects.  

Not long after that conversation we were told that powered transport was also struck off the list of permitted student projects. I have no idea as to whether the two things were related. 

There definitely should be some guidelines issued by VCAA, so the the confusion around what is permitted as a suitable project is cleared up for all current and new teachers of Systems and Design.

Neville Young
________________________________________
From: syseng-bounces at edulists.com.au [syseng-bounces at edulists.com.au] on behalf of Systems Engineering Teacher [systems-eng-teacher at hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, 11 February 2016 12:35 PM
To: Systems and Engineering Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Systems Engineering Teachers' Mailing List] syseng Digest, Vol 125, Issue 3

Good Afternoon Mark and Everybody Concerned,

I started teaching over 20 years ago when VCE was a pup.

My background before teaching was:

A qualified Electrical/Electrical Trades person in the Engineering Industry for over twenty years before I gained qualifications as a Technology teacher (Systems and Technology now Systems Engineering, Design Technology and Information Technology).

While the issue for you Mark is that you would like the short answer on the “use of ride on vehicles and there maximum power rating”, l believe you might benefit from some of the experiences I have had over the years in the trade and teaching. ( I apologise for the long winded blurb below)

I am going to open up a can of worms, I have always felt from the beginning as a teacher there was a need for definitive directions  in the safety for us teachers who work with students in the technology area ( to protect the technology teachers and students)

This was triggered when I began my teaching career where teachers were exposing students to 240volts ac. through open transformers in amplifier circuits. (These teachers were giving all sorts of reasoning to justify there position on this matter).

Pressure was put on me (from schools, students, parents and teachers) to allow students to to build amplifier circuits using open transformers with 240volt ac. As a qualified Electrical trades person I was not permitted to allow or instruct anyone who did not have qualifications to work on 240volts ac. There were and are still heavy penalties for qualified trades people as myself such as loss of qualifications and heavy fines.

I raised this issue in a number of forums with the technology teaching fraternity which led to the head of the technology area at VCAA asking me for advice that was to be written up in a VCE Bulletin Supplement. This advice was based on the requirements of the state regulatory body for qualified and non qualified persons working with Electrical Energy.

Working with electrical energy is not the only issue in safety that I wanted to make sure I was doing the correct thing with students. I have always believed in having students design and create real products. Not creating products out of  cardboard cutouts and icy pole sticks.

This included tools, materials and products that students could use that were in real life situations and were innovative.  It was and still is difficult and near impossible to nail down definitive answers from the governing education bodies on safety requirements in education.

Yes you can find laws and requirements from regulatory bodies like VicRoads. I believe the laws and requirements from such bodies do not cover all of the situations when it comes to the intricacies of Technology Education and protecting students and teachers.

Maybe you have to ask yourself  some questions like these ones:

       Am I a qualified engineer that I can instruct or allow students to design and build ride on vehicles?
       Would or could I supply an engineering certificate that meets any situation that the vehicle is used in. ( is there any law or governing body in Australia that requires a certificate)?
       What would a parent do if their child was injured on the vehicle or their child was responsible for someone else that was injured, that you instructed them to design or build (would the parents  be supportive, would they be as so kind to say that's ok it was just one of those things)?
       Would a  government or independent school be supportive if something went wrong or would they leave you as the escape goat?
       Would a  government or independent bodies or departments be supportive if something went wrong or would they leave you as the escape goat (how would their lawyers treat you)?

My experience has shown me that when it comes down to the crunch you will be on your own.

I have had a couple of conversations with people in  a number of government and independent bodies in OHS  that came up with the same advice.

When it comes down to the crunch ( and you are facing legal action) you will be asked two simple questions:

o       What were the reasonable foreseen risks?
o       What reasonable actions did you take to limit those risks?

I would ask myself, would a letter from parents that gives permission for a student to design and build such a vehicle, protect me, or would I be seen as the Expert.

I hope what I have written is not seen as an attack on any one person or body, rather it is seen as something that will open up discussion and maybe provide history to new teachers in the technology area and get some clear and definitive directions created to protect all. (Teachers and Students).

Yours Sincerely

Systems Engineering Teacher

Sent from my iPad

> On 11 Feb 2016, at 10:20 AM, Neville YOUNG <NYO at gwsc.vic.edu.au> wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, I don't have the instructions any more, probably been deleted accidentally some time ago. Perhaps Lorraine Tran can help as they were issued when she was in charge.
>
> Neville
> ________________________________________
> From: syseng-bounces at edulists.com.au [syseng-bounces at edulists.com.au] on behalf of Mark Tory [Mark.Tory at beaconhills.vic.edu.au]
> Sent: Thursday, 11 February 2016 9:47 AM
> To: syseng at edulists.com.au
> Subject: Re: [Systems Engineering Teachers' Mailing List] syseng Digest,        Vol 125, Issue 3
>
> Thanks for your replies Bruce, Neville and Roger.
>> From your replies it seems that there is no ruling from VCAA; as a private school we don't get the rulings from the department, so it would appear that there are no rules other than Vic Roads. The students tell me that they will not be using the projects in public, so I guess that that means that our College will have to make the call on safety.
> Neville, if you find that email from the department that would be a good starting point for our College to make a determination on safety.
> Roger would you be able to share the letter that you send to students?
> mark.tory at beaconhills.vic.edu.au
>
> many thanks,
> Mark
>
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Power regulations (Mark Tory)
>   2. Re: Power regulations (Eager, Bruce L)
>   3. Re: Power regulations (Neville YOUNG)
>   4. Re: Power regulations (Roger Knight)
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> Are there published or even un written rules on maximum power for student projects?
> I have one student wanting to make a scooter that exceeds the 200 W power limit of Vic Roads.
> Another student wishes to make an electric go Kart.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Mark Tory
>
>
>
> Refer to VicRoads - Power Assisted Bikes. Refers you to EU standards which Australia is adopting for such machines. Some years ago VicPol was going to using Segway's  for policing work. Vic roads over ruled and banned the Police from using them.
>
>
>  *    pedal cycle with one or more auxiliary propulsion motors attached which has a combined maximum power output not exceeding 200 watts. Bruce Eager
>
>
> On 10 Feb 2016, at 4:22 PM, Mark Tory <Mark.Tory at beaconhills.vic.edu.au<mailto:Mark.Tory at beaconhills.vic.edu.au>> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Mark,
> It's my understanding that a couple of years ago all teachers were informed that scooters and go karts were forbidden as the department was worried that students could be injured and then sue the department. In fact the statement said something along the line of any motorised project used to transport a person was prohibited.
>
> Last year I inquired for a student about making a Segway type vehicle, but was told that because they were not legal to use on footpaths and roads in Victoria the student was not allowed to make one.
>
> I was then very surprised to see a motorised vehicle at Top Designs a month or so later.
>
> It would be a great help to us all if VCAB were to put in a description  of types of projects that are not allowed along with a description of the regulations regarding voltages and mains wiring for projects in their Support Materials for Systems Engineering as these type of questions regularly occur over the life of a study design.
>
> Regards
> Neville Young
>
>
> Message: 4
> Hi all
>
> As Bruce correctly pointed out there are regulations for motorized vehicles and scooters.
>
> https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/safety-and-road-rules/road-rules/a-to-z-of-road-rules/scooters-and-wheeled-recreational-devices
>
> My reading of this indicates that for vehicles under 200W the same rules apply as would apply for a human powered vehicle (push bike).
> At our school the vehicles are made / modified in line with these rules and with the approval of the headmaster / principal.
> The student and his family are made aware that the school is not liable where the vehicle is used outside the school grounds.
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Kind regards ... Roger Knight
>
> Hi Mark,
> It's my understanding that a couple of years ago all teachers were informed that scooters and go karts were forbidden as the department was worried that students could be injured and then sue the department. In fact the statement said something along the line of any motorised project used to transport a person was prohibited.
>
> Last year I inquired for a student about making a Segway type vehicle, but was told that because they were not legal to use on footpaths and roads in Victoria the student was not allowed to make one.
>
> I was then very surprised to see a motorised vehicle at Top Designs a month or so later.
>
> It would be a great help to us all if VCAB were to put in a description  of types of projects that are not allowed along with a description of the regulations regarding voltages and mains wiring for projects in their Support Materials for Systems Engineering as these type of questions regularly occur over the life of a study design.
>
> Regards
> Neville Young
>
>
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>
>
>
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> Systems and Engineering Mailing List kindly supported by
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