[Year 12 SofDev] Should I teach lists?

Mon Mar 7 17:48:53 AEDT 2016

I guess at the end of the day, the exam is algorithm based. If a student clearly demonstrates understanding of them and follows the structure given, then I guess they won't have an issue. My point is that I don't want to overtly confuse them. You know your students best. If you think you can teach it without overloading or confusing kids, then go for it.
That's just my opinion.

Regards
Damien A-B

On 7 Mar 2016, at 5:39 PM, Baas, Benjamin B <baas.benjamin.b at edumail.vic.gov.au<mailto:baas.benjamin.b at edumail.vic.gov.au>> wrote:

Wow, it sounds like the study design is not language-independent.

Cheers,

Ben
-Alkira Secondary College.
:P

From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au<mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Selina Dennis
Sent: Monday, 7 March 2016 4:45 PM
To: 'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List' <sofdev at edulists.com.au<mailto:sofdev at edulists.com.au>>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Should I teach lists?

My perspective on this dot-point is that the use of ‘array’ is a starting point, with the programming language shaping where that point ‘ends’. For example, I use Python in the classroom, yet I have no intention of having students use the array module that limits the data inside their lists to a single data type beyond creating a small programming exercise to demonstrate its use. I will, however, discuss with them the difference between Python’s default implementation of lists and the ‘computer science’ definition of an array, as well as why using ‘array’ in the traditional sense isn’t terribly common if coding in Python.

I see it as a good opportunity to discuss the pros and cons of Python’s implementation and what this means for a programmer. As a comparison, I’ll discuss the C/C++/etc implementation of array with the fixed size limitation. It’s possible to create dynamically sized arrays in these languages, it’s just not elegant – you need to malloc the memory to the size of the initial array, and then realloc that memory every time you wish to resize it – useful if you want full control, and a pain in the butt if you don’t care about memory management. It’s good for them to know this, because it gives them a better understanding as to why people produce “new programming languages” as well – I would guess that some of the main contributors of Python really disliked needing to mess around so directly with memory management, which is why Python has that kind of memory management built in by default.

To me, it doesn’t make sense to limit students to stick to only the programming concepts that are covered in the Study Design, and in fact, it’s not possible for me to do that using Python anyway. For example, Python doesn’t have native support for “records” as a data structure, but it does have classes and dictionaries (including ordered dictionaries), which do the job just as well. I could teach them about SimpleNamespace or mutable namedtuples, both of which allow them to mimic what a record does, but this will confuse them unnecessarily and there’s no real benefit for them implementing their Python code in this way.  Instead, I plan to teach them about records as part of their theoretical knowledge of programming in the same way that I’m teaching them about the difference between a function, subroutine and method.

Just my thoughts, hope that helps,

Selina Dennis
Strathmore Secondary College
(03) 9379 7999

From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au<mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Baas, Benjamin B
Sent: Monday, 7 March 2016 3:13 PM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List <sofdev at edulists.com.au<mailto:sofdev at edulists.com.au>>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Should I teach lists?

Hi all,

Message is pretty clear stick to the Study Design.

<rant>

I feel like I’m teaching my students poor programming practices by sticking to the SD, all my students that have come up with ideas for the SAT don’t know how much data their program will store at run time in these cases a dynamic data collection, like a list, would be the best option compare to an array which in VB and C# has a fixed size. Yes they can create a really large array, but then they are creating a program with built in security vulnerabilities.

Also isn’t the point of the SAT is so the students can show us what they are capable of doing, if we limit them to only concepts covered in the SD then we limit what they can show us on the SAT and if that’s the case what is the point of the SAT if we have to teach to the exam.

Also why can’t students still get marks on the exams, if they show a better way of doing things.

</rant>

Cheers,

Ben

Benjamin Baas
<image001.png> Alkira Secondary College
•   Nurture Ave, Cranbourne North | PO Box 4314, Narre Warren South 3805
'   +61 3 5991 3500      6 +61 3 5991 3599     • www.alkirasecondarycollege.com.au<http://www.alkirasecondarycollege.com.au/>
Alkira Secondary College believes in Personalised learning for all, and  Respect for the individual

From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au<mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Paragreen, Chris J
Sent: Monday, 7 March 2016 2:18 PM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List <sofdev at edulists.com.au<mailto:sofdev at edulists.com.au>>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Should I teach lists?

The key knowledge for U4O1 includes: “uses of data structures to organise and manipulate data, including associative arrays (or dictionaries or hash tables)”

I think that could rule lists in …? Otherwise I would agree with the KISS principle.

Chris

From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au<mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Guy Flaherty
Sent: Monday, 7 March 2016 1:47 PM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List <sofdev at edulists.com.au<mailto:sofdev at edulists.com.au>>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Should I teach lists?

Python does have an array type which is similar to what other languages define as an array. It limits the array to a specific type. It may be useable, especially to contrast with a ‘list’ in python to help students understand the pythonic way of doing things!

https://docs.python.org/2/library/array.html

You can use it like the following:

>>>from array import array
>>>a = array(‘I’,[1,2,3,4])
>>>a[1]
2
>>>a.append(‘a’)
Traceback (most recent call last):
File “<stdin>”, line 1, in <module>
TypeError: an integer is required (got type str)

The ‘I’ is the typecode which forces the array to be restricted to the type this typecode represents (int’s in this case). It might be useful if you are using python and need to explain/demo arrays.

Guy Flaherty

From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au<mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Croke, Daryl D
Sent: Monday, 7 March 2016 12:06 PM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List <sofdev at edulists.com.au<mailto:sofdev at edulists.com.au>>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Should I teach lists?

Hi all

Python doesn't do arrays as such, but you can make list within list and make them function like an array, so surely that's the point.

see: http://www.i-programmer.info/programming/python/3942-arrays-in-python.html

What are we trying to achieve? What code do we require to achieve that?

Even though we can have mixed data type lists in Python it would be best to avoid that.

Cheers

Daryl Croke

Mount Ridley College
8338 3600
http://mountridleycollege.vic.edu.au/

keep on coding
http://geekstuff.global2.vic.edu.au/
http://physicalcomputing.global2.vic.edu.au/

________________________________
From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au<mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au> [sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au<mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au>] on behalf of Laurie Savage [08327998 at pvgc.vic.edu.au<mailto:08327998 at pvgc.vic.edu.au>]
Sent: Monday, 7 March 2016 11:30 AM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Should I teach lists?
I'm no expert here so I'm very happy to be corrected but this poses a problem with PHP and Python where arrays and lists are interchangeable. In PHP and Python arrays can contain elements of different types: e.g.

$fred = array("Fred", "Smith", 40, 78.50) so $fred[2] + $fred[3] = 118.5 but $fred[0] + $fred[1] should throw an error in PHP, not in Python.

or

$fred = array("FName"=>"Fred", SName"=>"Smith", "Age"=>40, "Weight"=> 78.5)

I seem to remember having this discussion with Kevork back in 2010!

Laurie

Laurie Savage
IT Teacher/Assessment and Reporting Coordinator
Pascoe Vale Girls College

On 7 Mar 2016, at 11:09 AM, Chris Bucknell <Chris.Bucknell at haileybury.vic.edu.au<mailto:Chris.Bucknell at haileybury.vic.edu.au>> wrote:

Hi All,

Like Damien I don’t encourage my students to use List and Dictionaries because in they tend to confuse them and arrays when it comes to exams.  So I find it simpler to avoid them and get the students to understand what’s on the study design and what they’ll be assessed on.

Cheers

Chris Bucknell
Head of CDT; Coord, Internal Exam; House Tutor
+61 3 9904 6360
Chris.Bucknell at haileybury.vic.edu.au<mailto:%7bemail%7d>
www.haileybury.vic.edu.au<http://www.haileybury.vic.edu.au/>
From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au<mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of ATKINSON-BUCK, Damien
Sent: Monday, 7 March 2016 10:38 AM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Should I teach lists?

Hi Ben,
              Personally steer away from Lists and Dictionaries, even though they’re technically easier to use (and in at least the case of dictionaries, sometimes faster) purely because I don’t want to add any extra confusion for the students. When it comes to exams, they are likely to be asked questions about arrays. If they put in an example in list format, an exam assessor may not get that and give them zero…. Especially if you look at RemoveAt() and other list shortcuts.
That’s just my overly cautious approach, quite possibly I’m underselling the students ability to discriminate the best time to use it.
Cheers
Damien

Damien Atkinson-Buck
Head of Learning Area: Technology/Arts
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From: Baas, Benjamin B [mailto:baas.benjamin.b at edumail.vic.gov.au]
Sent: Monday, 7 March 2016 9:49 AM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: [Year 12 SofDev] Should I teach lists?

Hi all,

I’m contemplating whether on not I should teach my students about Lists in C# and VB as they will be of more use to them then Arrays when doing their SAT (List are dynamic and have more functionality). I just wanted to know what peoples thoughts are on this and if they go beyond the data collections mentioned in the study design. The SD just mentions Arrays and Records.

Cheers,

Ben.

Benjamin Baas
<image005.png> Alkira Secondary College
•   Nurture Ave, Cranbourne North | PO Box 4314, Narre Warren South 3805
'   +61 3 5991 3500      6 +61 3 5991 3599     • www.alkirasecondarycollege.com.au<http://www.alkirasecondarycollege.com.au/>
Alkira Secondary College believes in Personalised learning for all, and  Respect for the individual

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