[Year 12 SofDev] When is enough enough?
Russell Quinn
QN at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au
Fri Sep 12 13:31:15 EST 2008
I asked the same question last year
and got know where. Potentially
a knowledge of linked lists and trees
could be examined. The question is
will they.
I am still waiting for the VCAA to do their job
properly and tell us what is examinable,
so that I am not wasting my students time
teaching them stuff they which will not be examined.
Russell Quinn
Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au
From: sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
Sent: Fri 12/09/2008 12:00 PM
To: sofdev at edulists.com.au
Subject: sofdev Digest, Vol 43, Issue 24
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Today's Topics:
1. When is enough enough? Data structures depth of knowledge
required.[y12] (Dr Andrew Wenn)
2. RE: When is enough enough? Data structures depth of knowledge
required.[y12] (Don Morelli Optus)
3. Re: When is enough enough? Data structures depth of knowledge
required.[y12] (Mark Kelly)
4. RE: When is enough enough? Data structures depth of knowledge
required.[y12] (Adrian Janson)
5. RE: When is enough enough? Data structures depth ofknowledge
required.[y12] (Andrew Shortell)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:40:51 -0700
From: Dr Andrew Wenn <andrewwenn at mac.com>
Subject: [Year 12 SofDev] When is enough enough? Data structures depth
of knowledge required.[y12]
To: sofdev at edulists.com.au
Cc: Andrew Wenn <andrew.wenn at gippslandgs.vic.edu.au>
Message-ID: <5035290233352581725800037940651410225-Webmail2 at me.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Hi,
Could someone please advise on how much knowledge VCE students are required to have of data structures?
Looking at the two main texts there is a fair difference for example in the discussion of linked lists in terms of implementation and algorithms. I find the Study Guide even more vague (now why does that suprise me????)
Obviously students should have an appreciation of structures such as the array, queue, stack, linked list and trees and when and why they would be used.
It would be easy to for me to teach six months of data structures and implementation but what amounts to enough knowledge? Are students expected to know insertion and deletion algorithms for linked lists or even how to traverse a tree or a list?
All answers to be supplied on the back of a table napkin pls :-)
Andrew Wenn
Gippsland Grammar
--
email: andrewwenn at mac.com
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:28:39 +1000
From: "Don Morelli Optus" <da_morelli at optusnet.com.au>
Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] When is enough enough? Data structures
depth of knowledge required.[y12]
To: "'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'"
<sofdev at edulists.com.au>
Message-ID: <EE3372FCC8504CB0A41D2A8C980D1E1E at donPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Andrew, I have only given them enough time for students to know what they
are and be familiar enough with the algorithms for them to be able to work
through a deskcheck of one of them.
Hope this helps
Cheers Don
-----Original Message-----
From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
On Behalf Of Dr Andrew Wenn
Sent: Thursday, 11 September 2008 2:41 PM
To: sofdev at edulists.com.au
Cc: Andrew Wenn
Subject: [Year 12 SofDev] When is enough enough? Data structures depth of
knowledge required.[y12]
Hi,
Could someone please advise on how much knowledge VCE students are required
to have of data structures?
Looking at the two main texts there is a fair difference for example in the
discussion of linked lists in terms of implementation and algorithms. I find
the Study Guide even more vague (now why does that suprise me????)
Obviously students should have an appreciation of structures such as the
array, queue, stack, linked list and trees and when and why they would be
used.
It would be easy to for me to teach six months of data structures and
implementation but what amounts to enough knowledge? Are students expected
to know insertion and deletion algorithms for linked lists or even how to
traverse a tree or a list?
All answers to be supplied on the back of a table napkin pls :-)
Andrew Wenn
Gippsland Grammar
--
email: andrewwenn at mac.com
_______________________________________________
http://www.edulists.com.au
IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority
and
http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html - VITTA
Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:40:02 +1000
From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] When is enough enough? Data structures
depth of knowledge required.[y12]
To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
<sofdev at edulists.com.au>
Message-ID: <48C8AF32.5050201 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hi Andrew.
The structures you mention (and don't forget the multi-dimensional
array!) are all quite reasonable for a kid to know, IMHO, especially how
they can be used to implement basic algorithms (such as
sorting/searching). Of course, some kids will struggle with the
concepts if they're not introduced carefully.
I also covered GUI structures like listboxes, controls arrays (in VB)
since students often use them as quick and dirty surrogates for
structure primitives.
Cheers
Mark
Dr Andrew Wenn wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Could someone please advise on how much knowledge VCE students are required to have of data structures?
>
> Looking at the two main texts there is a fair difference for example in the discussion of linked lists in terms of implementation and algorithms. I find the Study Guide even more vague (now why does that suprise me????)
>
> Obviously students should have an appreciation of structures such as the array, queue, stack, linked list and trees and when and why they would be used.
>
> It would be easy to for me to teach six months of data structures and implementation but what amounts to enough knowledge? Are students expected to know insertion and deletion algorithms for linked lists or even how to traverse a tree or a list?
>
> All answers to be supplied on the back of a table napkin pls :-)
>
> Andrew Wenn
> Gippsland Grammar
>
--
Mark Kelly
Manager - Information Systems
McKinnon Secondary College
McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
School Phone +613 8520 9000
School Fax +613 95789253
kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
A conclusion is the place where you got sick of thinking.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 08:25:26 +1000
From: "Adrian Janson" <janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au>
Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] When is enough enough? Data structures
depth of knowledge required.[y12]
To: "'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'"
<sofdev at edulists.com.au>
Message-ID:
<002101c9145d$4a3e7110$debb5330$@adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Andrew,
As one of the authors of one of the SD texts - I feel I must point out that
although the contents of the study design are fully represented in my text -
my text is not fully represented in the study design! The only 'book' that
you should be truly using as a reference is the Study Design. My text
contains a lot of material that is beyond the study - and teachers shouldn't
get the impression that any text is the equivalent to the Study Design.
On the topic of Data Structures - I do take your point that it is not well
defined in the Study Design, however, it is not difficult to know what is
'reasonable'. For example, 1D and 2D arrays are a must and I feel that a
knowledge of the function of records, stacks and queues is also good.
Linked Lists and trees are really a bit beyond what students need to know -
and certainly teaching the algorithms for them is too much. You are of
course entitled to teach data structures to any depth that you like - and it
all serves to enrich the topic as a whole!
Cheers,
Adrian
Adrian Janson,
VITTA President
Director of ICT,
Melbourne High School,
Forrest Hill, South Yarra 3141 Australia.
Phone: 03 9826 0711 International: +61 3 9826 0711
Fax: 03 9826 8767 International: +61 3 9826 8767
E-mail: janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au
Website: http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au
Blog: http://jansona.edublogs.org
-----Original Message-----
From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
On Behalf Of Dr Andrew Wenn
Sent: Thursday, 11 September 2008 2:41 PM
To: sofdev at edulists.com.au
Cc: Andrew Wenn
Subject: [Year 12 SofDev] When is enough enough? Data structures depth of
knowledge required.[y12]
Hi,
Could someone please advise on how much knowledge VCE students are required
to have of data structures?
Looking at the two main texts there is a fair difference for example in the
discussion of linked lists in terms of implementation and algorithms. I find
the Study Guide even more vague (now why does that suprise me????)
Obviously students should have an appreciation of structures such as the
array, queue, stack, linked list and trees and when and why they would be
used.
It would be easy to for me to teach six months of data structures and
implementation but what amounts to enough knowledge? Are students expected
to know insertion and deletion algorithms for linked lists or even how to
traverse a tree or a list?
All answers to be supplied on the back of a table napkin pls :-)
Andrew Wenn
Gippsland Grammar
--
email: andrewwenn at mac.com
_______________________________________________
http://www.edulists.com.au
IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority
and
http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html - VITTA
Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
Important - This email and any attachments may be confidential. If received in error, please contact us and delete all copies. Before opening or using attachments check them for viruses and defects. Regardless of any loss, damage or consequence, whether caused by the negligence of the sender or not, resulting directly or indirectly from the use of any attached files our liability is limited to resupplying any affected attachments. Any representations or opinions expressed are those of the individual sender, and not necessarily those of the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 09:49:04 +1000
From: "Andrew Shortell" <a.shortell at braemar.vic.edu.au>
Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] When is enough enough? Data structures
depth ofknowledge required.[y12]
To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
<sofdev at edulists.com.au>
Message-ID:
<33AA3D688F19FC45900EEE957F551F850115C63C at exchangesvr.braemar.vic.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Andrew
Adrian's point is valid.
We also need to look carefully at what is actually examined and why...
Although you are in Gippsland it would be very worthwhile for you to
mark the exam papers in the subject for a few years. The effort involved
in travelling up and down will be amply repaid in the significant
changes that you would make in the teaching of the subject.
Careful reading of the examiners' reports over the years indicates that
2d arrays have moved onto the exam. Why?.... careful reading of the
study design indicates that they have been there for a while....
I teach this subject because I enjoy programming, I enjoy teaching the
students to program, I enjoy making things. The theory is fine and
obviously contributes to understanding the programming (weellll some of
it does)
For me the bottom line is that we do the bits that are fun and (then)
concentrate on getting a good mark. I teach for enjoyment. ;-)
Andrew Shortell
Braemar College
-----Original Message-----
From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
[mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Adrian Janson
Sent: Friday, 12 September 2008 8:25 AM
To: 'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'
Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] When is enough enough? Data structures
depth ofknowledge required.[y12]
Hi Andrew,
As one of the authors of one of the SD texts - I feel I must point out
that
although the contents of the study design are fully represented in my
text -
my text is not fully represented in the study design! The only 'book'
that
you should be truly using as a reference is the Study Design. My text
contains a lot of material that is beyond the study - and teachers
shouldn't
get the impression that any text is the equivalent to the Study Design.
On the topic of Data Structures - I do take your point that it is not
well
defined in the Study Design, however, it is not difficult to know what
is
'reasonable'. For example, 1D and 2D arrays are a must and I feel that
a
knowledge of the function of records, stacks and queues is also good.
Linked Lists and trees are really a bit beyond what students need to
know -
and certainly teaching the algorithms for them is too much. You are of
course entitled to teach data structures to any depth that you like -
and it
all serves to enrich the topic as a whole!
Cheers,
Adrian
Adrian Janson,
VITTA President
Director of ICT,
Melbourne High School,
Forrest Hill, South Yarra 3141 Australia.
Phone: 03 9826 0711 International: +61 3 9826 0711
Fax: 03 9826 8767 International: +61 3 9826 8767
E-mail: janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au
Website: http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au
Blog: http://jansona.edublogs.org
-----Original Message-----
From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
[mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
On Behalf Of Dr Andrew Wenn
Sent: Thursday, 11 September 2008 2:41 PM
To: sofdev at edulists.com.au
Cc: Andrew Wenn
Subject: [Year 12 SofDev] When is enough enough? Data structures depth
of
knowledge required.[y12]
Hi,
Could someone please advise on how much knowledge VCE students are
required
to have of data structures?
Looking at the two main texts there is a fair difference for example in
the
discussion of linked lists in terms of implementation and algorithms. I
find
the Study Guide even more vague (now why does that suprise me????)
Obviously students should have an appreciation of structures such as the
array, queue, stack, linked list and trees and when and why they would
be
used.
It would be easy to for me to teach six months of data structures and
implementation but what amounts to enough knowledge? Are students
expected
to know insertion and deletion algorithms for linked lists or even how
to
traverse a tree or a list?
All answers to be supplied on the back of a table napkin pls :-)
Andrew Wenn
Gippsland Grammar
--
email: andrewwenn at mac.com
_______________________________________________
http://www.edulists.com.au
IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
Authority
and
http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
VITTA
Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
Important - This email and any attachments may be confidential. If
received in error, please contact us and delete all copies. Before
opening or using attachments check them for viruses and defects.
Regardless of any loss, damage or consequence, whether caused by the
negligence of the sender or not, resulting directly or indirectly from
the use of any attached files our liability is limited to resupplying
any affected attachments. Any representations or opinions expressed are
those of the individual sender, and not necessarily those of the
Department of Education and Early Childhood Development.
_______________________________________________
http://www.edulists.com.au
IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
Authority and
http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
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