[Year 12 SofDev] SACs and more
Fatima Nazar
fnazar at sfx.vic.edu.au
Wed Mar 12 10:43:54 EST 2008
Hey, (Kevork)
you write well !
I attended a VITTA session by Mark so I sort of know what he looks like but havent seen a recent photo.
In my other life I was a programmer (DOS) so am scared of hardware, but maybe you prepare yourself more for the things you are scared of? so even when most stuff that you guys talk about makes no sense, I am constantly absorbing and oh the husband is in ICT - he has been doing network security and now he is a program manager, so I bug him a lot as well. I think I am good at it - bugging
Happy teaching
Fatima
________________________________
From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Kevork Krozian
Sent: Wed 3/12/2008 10:08 AM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] SACs and more
Hi Fatima,
Yes, it is good to be spending our lives ( mine and Mark's ) for the perpetual entertainment of others :))
BTW An audience member - an elderly lady - during a Paul Keating budget launch with Andrew Peacock rebutting as shadow treasurer said :
" ... honestly watching you two, you'd be in actors' equity ( actors union organisation to support local actors to secure work) if you weren't paid so well ... "
to which Paul Keating replied
" ... we just love spending our adult lives for the entertainment of others ..... "
So, if the networking doesn't make sense I hope the humour and the asides are of some value ..... seen a photo of Mark lately ??
More importantly, if something doesn't make sense please ask so it can be cleared. Packet tracker or packet tracer is a simulation of network traffic movement. Very powerful and it is to your credit you've dug it up for the students. Well done Fatima.
Keep well
Kevork
>>> "Fatima Nazar" <fnazar at sfx.vic.edu.au> 11/03/2008 9:26 pm >>>
hey Kevork,
You two (Mark and you) talk of stuff which to me is like Alice's wonderland, a teensy bit familiar and its interesting to read on and be aware of stuff!
on a lighter side - VITTA CD has a packet tracker program that students can use to creat different network topologies and see packet travelling animation - very cte, with bells and whistles and great visual aide for newbies like me.
oh - and do you colour coordinate? will help me in diagnosing your condition :)
Regards
Fatima
________________________________
From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Kevork Krozian
Sent: Tue 11/03/2008 5:25 PM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] SACs and more
Hi Mark,
I have been dragged to a large number of Sainter games by close friends so I understand
the emotion you express here .......
OK, the study design says nothing about packets or frames ....
but exam questions requiring explanations about network devices would suggest the student needs to use correct technical language
eg.
Q3 Section B 2006 asks
Describe the major difference between a switch and a modem on a network.
and
Q12 Section B 2005
Selection of some network components ( router, switch etc ) , and explain its function.
Student selects a switch and proceeds to describe what a switch does with packets .... which switches have no understanding of as switches only understand frames.
Does the examiner/marker decide that the student doesn't really understand switches ?
Nothing magical or super about a frame and a packet . One is a larger envelope ( frame ) into which the smaller envelope ( packet ) is placed as the data is passed down all the way to the wire ( or wireless ). Different envelopes for different devices to help each find the source and destination as efficiently as possible.
Not wanting to flog this to death ( but you have already I hear everyone shout ) , but if I , me , myself was standing in front of a class I know that I like to know the difference.
But then again, I am kind of strange........ and neither medication nor therapy has been able to cure the condition .....:))
Adios for now
Kevork
>>> Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au> 11/03/2008 1:55 pm >>>
Ah, Sainters. It's the only thing they'll win all season, knowing them.
Anyway.
Frames... yes, I remember frames, but I've never brought them up in SD.
For the momen I
'll attribute it to "Too Much Information" (but more
honestly I haven't even thought of frames since Novell Netware IPX/SPX
days...)
And I've managed to get away with never mentioning the OSI model, but at
least I've occasionally felt a touch guilty about that one :-)
It's sometimes tough deciding when you're heading into TMI territory,
but I believe in the Study Design and have already written to the prime
minister that the key knowledge dot points of SD U3O1 be written into
the national anthem.
If the SDSD (Software Development Study Design) explicitly mentioned
frames or OSI, I'd make sure I covered them.
Anyway, I think most teachers don't write SACs because they're scared
they'll muck them up and get into trouble, and there's some
justification for their nervousness. I'm sure those who develop their
confidence enough will naturally progress into modifying and then
creating their own SACs as a matter of course.
I started last year modifying and using Adrian's U3O1, and then writing
my own U3O2 based on an idea in the SDSD. It's nice to have someone's
hand to hold when you're starting off :-)
Cheers!
Mark
Kevork Krozian wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
> I just heard St Kilda won so we can resume the discussion ..... :))
>
> Obviously we don't expect our SD kids to work at the tech level ..... and the course is not built for techs.
>
> But, it takes knowledge to simplify a concept. Eg. Why do routers use packets and switches use frames ?
> What is the difference between a packet and a frame ? What do you mean you need line of sight for some wireless technologies ?
>
> SACs 31 and 42 - fully 50% of the SAC marks for the year - are based on networking.
>
> If a teacher can't write a SAC after viewing a number of them then there is a problem.
> Hey, maybe we need a SAC advisory line for those struggling with these tasks.
> Before we go rewriting them though we should have a checklist of skills and knowledge the teachers need to have before escalating the task.
>
> For a while I have been working on a draft of a few PD activities:
>
> 1. EVERYTHING you need to know about Information System networking for VCE IT.
> 2. ALL the IT skills and knowledge you need to start your own business for our VCAL students.
>
>
> It is the "art" of how to teach these concepts and to what level and what skills you need as a teacher that is the struggle.
>
> We haven't heard enough from teachers struggling to write their own SACs as to where they are having problems, partly because I feel it might be an individual fear that
> it is an admission of inadequacy or fear of making a mistake.
>
> Here is an offer. We can collect data anonymously. Should we try to set up a web page to do this ?
>
> Regards
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Kevork Krozian
> IT Manager , Forest Hill College
> k.krozian at fhc.vic.edu.au
> http://www.fhc.vic.edu.au <http://www.fhc.vic.edu.au/> <http://www.fhc.vic.edu.au/>
> Mobile: 0419 356 034
>
>>>> Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au> 8/03/2008 9:06 pm >>>
> Hi Kevork. It's interesting being in my MIS position and teaching the
> kids. I obviously can't have a technical understanding to the level
> that my techies must have, but I have to be able to question them and
> work out the fundamentals of what they are doing, their issues and new
> developments. e.g. They recently dropped the bombshell that DAT tapes
> are far from the reliable backup nirvana I had believed. They wanted to
> try doing trickle-backups over the web continuously to a nearby
> secondary college, while that college would do the same with us.
> Fascinating!
>
> And trickle-backups is not an official term. I made it up. I hope it
> appears in the study design glossary after I die :-)
>
> Being able to boil down the technicians' technobabble into a form that I
> can then use to plan for the future is exactly the level of
> understanding kids need in class. e.g. I know switches are better than
> hubs because they can 'read' packets' destinations and direct them in
> the right direction without broadcasting. Beyond that, I don't need to
> know a lot more. I hope...
>
> But when I realise I do need to know more, I do more research. e.g.
> whether a cable modem is or is not actually modulating/demodulating - an
> issue we discussed last year, I believe.
>
> The problem I find is that if I get TOO informed, it can be hard to draw
> a line when choosing how much detail to give kids. I fear some real
> specialists may get lost in the intricacies of their arts and forget the
> relatively-basic needs and abilities of their students.
>
> But then again, it's always good to know a little MORE detail than
> necessary in case kids ask curly questions (e.g. "You said phone lines
> can only carry analogue modem data at a max theoretical download speed
> of 56Kbps, so how does ADSL go so much faster on the same phone lines?")
>
> I guess the art is knowing what the kids need to know, what *you* need
> to know, and how to know when to stop telling them all you know.
>
> Anyway, gotta check if St Kilda is losing the pre-season grand final or
> not. I fear they are :-(
>
> Toodles
> Mark
>
> Kevork Krozian wrote:
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> I guess my point is you have had 10 more years of experience as MIS than
>> many SD teachers presenting in front of classes in Victoria.
>> As for the programming , your initiative is what has got you where you
>> are. Mine was a formal Comp Sci degree circa early 80s, but all I do and
>> use now I have had to learn, unlearn and relearn.
>> All that I still use from my formal degree days is the idea of efficient
>> processing ( database back end for data gathering rather than
>> intermittent emails arriving with information that needs to be organised
>> to make any use of it) , knowledge of numerical computations ( how
>> mathematical functions are approximated in computers ), data structures
>> ( files, arrays, records, pointers, trees etc ) , sorting/searching
>> algorithms and more of the same.
>> I had to learn about networking on the job as IT manager which began
>> around 1992 and the rest of the Study Design through each change every 3
>> - 4 years.
>> Ultimately it is real life experience that reinforces understanding.
>> Even networking instructors don't fully understand the theory unless
>> they are working with the hardware and software. Eg. Frame Relay is a
>> WAN topic I teach in Cisco but don't feel great about as I have never
>> used it nor seen it in action. By contrast, ADSL, ISDN, VPN is
>> technology I have and do use and can teach with confidence.
>>
>> Keep well
>>
>> Kevork Krozian
>> Edulists Creator and Administrator
>> www.edulists.com.au
>> kevork at edulists.com.au
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Kelly" <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 9:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17
>>
>>
>>> I've been a MIS at McKinnon since 1998.
>>>
>>> I taught myself BASIC on a 4K RAM TRS-80 in 1978 and spent too many
>>> hours over 20 years on various platforms including Apple ][, Vic-20,
>>> Commodore 64, Microbee, Amiga, PC and a Cyber mainframe playing with
>>> flavours of BASIC, C, Pascal, COBOL, 6502 and Z80 machine code and
>>> assembly language.
>>>
>>> I still remember 42E9 as the starting point of the BASIC interpreter
>>> in the TRS-80 ROM. Sigh.
>>>
>>> Kevork Krozian wrote:
>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>>
>>>> I know your degree is in English and Psych but for how long have you
>>>> been a network manager ?
>>>> and how /when did you learn programming ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kind Regards
>>>> Kevork Krozian
>>>> Edulists Creator and Administrator
>>>> www.edulists.com.au
>>>> kevork at edulists.com.au
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Kelly"
>>>> <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 5:14 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I have a BA in English and Psych - does that count?
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be really helpful to know what PD audiences really wanted
>>>>> to hear. Perhaps VITTA could pre-test people signing up for PD to
>>>>> find what 'favour' they want the PD to be. e.g. "Networking facts"
>>>>> vs "How to teach networking".
>>>>>
>>>>> I remember at the start of the 2003 study design I suggested to
>>>>> VITTA that teachers needed to be taught networking theory rather
>>>>> than how to teach networking to kids, and it was a big hit.
>>>>>
>>>>> Without the knowledge of what an audience really wants to hear, I
>>>>> often have to guess and try to cover 3 areas of interest in one
>>>>> long, fast presentation, hoping to satisfy everyone at least part of
>>>>> the time*.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even teacher PD is a mixed ability classroom :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark
>>>>>
>>>>> * the story of my love life :-(
>>>>>
>>>>> Kevork Krozian wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Theresa,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for your honesty in stating it is ok to admit not to know the
>>>>>> technical stuff and this from someone with an info systems degree.
>>>>>> Do all
>>>>>> our SD teachers have a degree in the area ?
>>>>>> And if you are not comfortable with the technical stuff - do I
>>>>>> understand
>>>>>> VPN, client server, WAN technologies, and more here? -- then how many
>>>>>> more without quals feel even less comfortable ?
>>>>>> I concur with your sentiments about the breaking down of the study
>>>>>> design
>>>>>> with little specificity being of little value. Yes, the VITTA CD
>>>>>> has gone
>>>>>> a long way to addressing the lack of specific sample work but there
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> been some quality assurance issues related to this.
>>>>>> Futhermore, there is no point in everyone doing the same VITTA
>>>>>> sample
>>>>>> SAC from the CD. It is just repeating the problem using a different
>>>>>> source.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Keep well
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kevork Krozian
>>>>>> Mailing List Administrator
>>>>>> kevork at edulists.com.au
>>>>>> www.edulists.com.au
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In regards to the present topic, I have a degree in Information
>>>>>>> systems
>>>>>>> and am confident with teaching the theory of Systems analysis and
>>>>>>> design, but feel nervous with some of the technical stuff because
>>>>>>> it has
>>>>>>> changed so much in the past five years since I last taught IS so I
>>>>>>> signed up to the recent VITTA workshops. I was dissapointed with the
>>>>>>> workshops, which basically did no more than break down the Study
>>>>>>> design,
>>>>>>> something I can do myself. I feel that some more specific PD for
>>>>>>> networking, modelling and even programming - like building
>>>>>>> programs for
>>>>>>> portable devices would really be more helpful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Theresa Gate
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>> sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, 6 March 2008 11:42 AM
>>>>>>> To: sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>> Subject: sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
>>>>>>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>>>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>>>>> sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>>>>> sofdev-owner at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
>>>>>>> specific than
>>>>>>> "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Re: Why aren't teachers able to write their own material ?
>>>>>>> (Kevork Krozian)
>>>>>>> 2. Re: Copyright / authorship / solutions / ?? (Mark Kelly)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Message: 1
>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 11:32:07 +1100
>>>>>>> From: "Kevork Krozian" <Kroset at novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Why aren't teachers able to write
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> own material ?
>>>>>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>>>>>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>>>>>> Message-ID: <47CFD635.EE3E.0095.0 at novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au>
>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Adrian and Mark,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Very good points but more broadly a symptom of a wider problem we
>>>>>>> keep avoiding.
>>>>>>> If teachers are not confident about assessing a topic ( to say
>>>>>>> nothing
>>>>>>> about teaching it effectively ) then we need to address this issue.
>>>>>>> I know we are all overworked but if we are teaching a class we
>>>>>>> need to
>>>>>>> be fair to the students and ourselves.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In reality if you are not an active network manager or Cisco
>>>>>>> instructor, you would struggle to understand networks and maybe
>>>>>>> not know
>>>>>>> a bus network even if you were run over by one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know VITTA and the VCAA almost do miracles ( not least in their
>>>>>>> active and meaningful support of Edulists and PD ) but why are
>>>>>>> teachers
>>>>>>> unable to write their own SACs with confidence and conviction and
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> solutions they can show others ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would say because the training and the need for new and current
>>>>>>> training has not kept up with the demands of the course(s). What
>>>>>>> do we
>>>>>>> do about this ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think we need to stop patching these problems with band aids
>>>>>>> and need
>>>>>>> to go up the tree (DEECD, the new Rudd govt. initiative or
>>>>>>> wherever else
>>>>>>> we need to go) where there is decent and proper funding to deliver
>>>>>>> updated courses and training rather than doing it on the cheap.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't want to drag down decent hardworking teachers doing the best
>>>>>>> they can with what little they have - I want to lift them .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just my thoughts
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kevork
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au> 6/03/2008 8:28 am >>>
>>>>>>> Good points there, Adrian. I have a gut feeling that people feel
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> more intimidated writing SD outcomes than they do ITA. It's that
>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> more complex.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In a similar vein, I've just finished writing a commercial
>>>>>>> practice SD
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> exam and it took much more thinking than the equivalent ITA exam.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Adrian Janson wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is a potentially tricky issue - and as one who often posts his
>>>>>>> SAC
>>>>>>>> and theory materials to the lists - one that I must confess is a bit
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> a concern.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Speaking personally, when I post my materials to the lists - I would
>>>>>>>> like to think that those who are making use of them do so in the
>>>>>>> spirit
>>>>>>>> in which they have been posted - giving credit where it is due and
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> altering things with a view to reposting them. I think the part of
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> that is the most worrying is that some material did find its way
>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> me which I had originally authored and posted to the lists - but
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> another teachers name on it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It may well just need to be the case that when we post materials to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> lists, we need to state (in the document as well as in the attached
>>>>>>>> email), that the materials are free to use but may not be adapted or
>>>>>>>> changed in any way without the permission of the author*. As I put
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> finishing touches on my 2008 SAC1 - I may well do this before I post
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> to the list? I would be interested to know what others think of
>>>>>>> this?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On another note - something which has been bothering me a great
>>>>>>> deal.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> After the review process took place last year and schools had the
>>>>>>> SACs
>>>>>>>> and Assessments checked by VCAA - it became apparent that a large
>>>>>>> number
>>>>>>>> of the sampled schools had used my SACs (more than half). Of the
>>>>>>>> remaining schools, many had used the VITTA SACs. After posting the
>>>>>>> SACs
>>>>>>>> to the lists, I had many requests for solutions which I tried to
>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>> as best I could. I don*t mind doing this - however, I think this
>>>>>>> seems
>>>>>>>> to suggest that there are few SD teachers creating their own
>>>>>>>> original
>>>>>>>> materials and/or solutions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now - I don*t mind doing the work and posting it for everyone to
>>>>>>> use. I
>>>>>>>> think doing this is especially valuable to those starting out with
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> SD course or with programming in general. However, if you are
>>>>>>> familiar
>>>>>>>> with the SD course - I think that you could be doing your own
>>>>>>> students a
>>>>>>>> disservice by not writing your own materials and solutions (and
>>>>>>>> hence
>>>>>>>> becoming more familiar with the assessment criteria and the
>>>>>>>> structure
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the course). In such a circumstance, I think it would be more
>>>>>>>> appropriate for you to use my SAC materials (or any others that are
>>>>>>>> posted) for practice SAC materials and / or inspiration for your
>>>>>>>> own.
>>>>>>>> There is no way I can prevent teachers from simply using my own (or
>>>>>>>> others) work as a method of minimising their own workload - however,
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> would implore those engaging in this practice to think of the bigger
>>>>>>>> picture.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Adrian Janson
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> VITTA President
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Director of ICT, Melbourne High School
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Poultney,
>>>>>>> Gordon A
>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 5 March 2008 12:13 PM
>>>>>>>> *To:* Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>>> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We are talking about a 2 page SAC here, not the latest from Neal
>>>>>>>> Stephenson...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Feel free to do what you want with Shagadelic - just don't put my
>>>>>>> name
>>>>>>>> on it if you change it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you believe in copyright/credit , then Ross' simple attribution
>>>>>>>> scheme looks good.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> gordon
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gordon Poultney
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Horsham College
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Stephen Digby
>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Wed 5/3/08 11:31
>>>>>>>> *To:* 'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'
>>>>>>>> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What about a simpler attribution such as
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Freds Carpet House v6 "Based on SAC by Mark Kelly 2007. Alterations
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>> Stephen Digby 2008, Gordon Poultney 2008"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just as the ridiculous copyright laws reduce the likelihood of
>>>>>>> attribution
>>>>>>>> (less likely to get caught for copyright violation if you remove all
>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>> re. source).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A overly complex attribution process may reduce the likelihood of
>>>>>>> sharing.
>>>>>>>> As it is, most resources that I have are not able to be shared
>>>>>>> because of
>>>>>>>> copyright (i.e. they are not mine to share)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lets develop a 'creative common' approach to as much materials as
>>>>>>>> possible....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ====================================================
>>>>>>>> Stephen Digby, Learning Technology Manager
>>>>>>>> mailto: digby.stephen.p at edumail.vic.gov.au
>>>>>>>> Cheltenham Secondary College www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au
>>>>>>>> Ph: 613 955 55 955 Fx: 9555 8617 Mb: 0431-701-028
>>>>>>>> ====================================================
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. Winston
>>>>>>>> Churchill
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2008 10:15 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List; Year 12 IT
>>>>>>>> Applications Teachers' Mailing List; Year 11 Information Technology
>>>>>>>> Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (I've X-posted to the ITA and year 11 IT lists. Apols in advance.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I see an interesting and potentially worrying point developing here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If we adapt other people's tasks, I think we are obliged to retain
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> version information contained in the task and note ourselves as
>>>>>>> modifiers
>>>>>>>> and let that info stay with the document in its further travels.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know I would be horrified if a task I created was later 'improved'
>>>>>>> by some
>>>>>>>> anonymous person, thereby damaging it or (even worse) rendering it a
>>>>>>>> violation of VCAA rules - with my name still proudly stuck on it as
>>>>>>> if I
>>>>>>>> were solely responsible for its current condition!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When we distribute 'adapted' tasks, I recommend that we:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. Of course, retain the original author's identity and document
>>>>>>> version
>>>>>>>> number, if they are in the document. Give the poor authors credit
>>>>>>> for their
>>>>>>>> labours!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2. Add yourself to the credits as a 'modifier'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3. Maybe even summarise your changes (and reasons?) in an
>>>>>>>> addendum at
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> end of the document. This addendum can be removed for printing
>>>>>>> purposes by
>>>>>>>> people who use it later, but it otherwise travels with the document
>>>>>>> as it
>>>>>>>> morphs through the ether.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Poultney, Gordon A wrote:
>>>>>>>>> i made up the original 'Shagadelic' which sounds like it has
>>>>>>> morphed
>>>>>>>> into something else. There is only 1 network diagram in the original
>>>>>>> - for
>>>>>>>> the new system .there is/was a marking scheme and complete network
>>>>>>> diagram
>>>>>>>> for the teacher too.
>>>>>>>>> cheers Gordon
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----------------
>>>>>>>>> Gordon Poultney
>>>>>>>>> Horsham College
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Maggie Iaquinto
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wed 5/3/08 9:14
>>>>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you were using this practice SAC as the actual one, it would be
>>>>>>>>> difficult to separate the marks for Task 1 (systems analysis and
>>>>>>>>> design
>>>>>>>>> - mistakenly called Task 2 here) from Task 2 (network diagram).
>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>> are required to report the marks for the tasks clearly and
>>>>>>> discretely.
>>>>>>>>> Task 1 is 40 marks and Task 2 is 10 marks -- based on 50 for the
>>>>>>>>> Outcome.
>>>>>>>>> In the assessment sheet nearly 25 marks of the 50 are devoted to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> network diagram. This makes it tough to report accurately to VCAA
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>> what your students have received, in terms of the balance of
>>>>>>> 40/10.
>>>>>>>>> Task 2 (network diagram) must be for the proposed new system and
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> document requires the student to diagram the current and the new.
>>>>>>>>> Sure, you can do that but it isn't necessary.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I notice also that there are marks given to presentation of the
>>>>>>> report.
>>>>>>>>> IMHO I would put those marks into a more finely-grained assessment
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> all the other Key Skills required in this Outcome.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just an opinion.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Maggie
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2008 8:36 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If the task extended across the holidays, make sure the remaining
>>>>>>> part
>>>>>>>>> is not given to them beforehand so they can't pre-produce stuff.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Claudia Graham wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Ross,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Re the practice SAC not sure who's that is so can't help there
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regarding the use of the internet not something I have done or
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> do,
>>>>>>>>>> for me it would be too hard to 'patrol'. But as long as all
>>>>>>> students
>>>>>>>>>> have the same conditions it doesn't matter (mind you I don't have
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> study design or assessment hand book beside me to check re
>>>>>>>>>> conditions)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Same for the time frame, I assume you mean a lesson or two prior
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> holidays and then some after (or similar), not something I would
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>> for authentication purposes. I would do it all in a few lessons;
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>> even like weekends between assessment lessons if I can help it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Claudia Graham
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Overnewton College
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Keilor
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Ogilvie,
>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* 4 March 2008 7:50 PM
>>>>>>>>>> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In regard to SD I have a couple of questions.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1. I have given my class a **Practice SAC** called **Shagadelic
>>>>>>>>>> Carpets** (refer to attachment) (hope the author is OK with
>>>>>>> this).
>>>>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>>>>> question is....does anyone have the solutions so I can check if I
>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> the right track.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 2. When I give my students the actual SAC:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> i. Can/should they access the internet.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ii. Would there be a problem (in Vic) if the SAC extended
>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> Term One holiday period into Term Two.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Kindest Regards
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> **Ross Ogilvie **
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> **LSF ICT Leader **
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> **Sunbury**** College**
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> **30 Racecourse Rd****, Sunbury 3429**
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> **Ph (W) 9744 1066 **
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ** (H) 54272843**
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> **Bookmarks: http://del.icio.us/Ross1956**
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> **Wiki: http://ross1956.wikispaces.com/**
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>>> Manager - Information Systems
>>>>>>> McKinnon Secondary College
>>>>>>> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia Direct line /
>>>>>>> Voicemail:
>>>>>>> 8520 9085 School Phone +613 8520 9000 School Fax +613 95789253 kel AT
>>>>>>> mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/> <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/> IT Lecture notes:
>>>>>>> http://vceit.com <http://vceit.com/> <http://vceit.com/>
>>>>>>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You'll know when we are officially a civilised race: our schools have
>>>>>>> all the money they need and the Air Force has to run a chook
>>>>>>> raffle to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> buy a new bomber.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/> <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
>>>>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>>>>>> Authority and
>>>>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>>>>>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Message: 2
>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 11:36:38 +1100
>>>>>>> From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Copyright / authorship / solutions / ??
>>>>>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>>>>>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>>>>>> Message-ID: <47CF3C96.1000409 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah - I didn't notice you were chasing SD stuff... I assumed it was
>>>>>>> ITA.
>>>>>>> I don't know if there are SD QATs. Your best bet is to check the
>>>>>>> VITTA resources. There are SD SACs there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I will attach the U3 outcomes I used last year, which were
>>>>>>> approved by
>>>>>>> VCAA during their audit of my material.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fatima Nazar wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hello Mark,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have looked into QATs and even sent them an email (no reply as
>>>>>>>> yet)
>>>>>>> about SD - I am brand new to SD and would LOVE to even buy some SACs
>>>>>>> with suggested solutions as I would then know what can be an
>>>>>>> excellent
>>>>>>> answer :) so let me know if you have some up your sleeve please
>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>> Fatima
>>>>>>>> (have 2 SD classes)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thu 3/6/2008 8:28 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Copyright / authorship / solutions
>>>>>>>> / ??
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good points there, Adrian. I have a gut feeling that people feel
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> more intimidated writing SD outcomes than they do ITA. It's that
>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>> more complex.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In a similar vein, I've just finished writing a commercial
>>>>>>>> practice SD
>>>>>>>> exam and it took much more thinking than the equivalent ITA exam.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Adrian Janson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is a potentially tricky issue - and as one who often posts his
>>>>>>> SAC
>>>>>>>>> and theory materials to the lists - one that I must confess is a
>>>>>>>>> bit
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> a concern.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Speaking personally, when I post my materials to the lists - I
>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> like to think that those who are making use of them do so in the
>>>>>>> spirit
>>>>>>>>> in which they have been posted - giving credit where it is due and
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> altering things with a view to reposting them. I think the part of
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> that is the most worrying is that some material did find its way
>>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> me which I had originally authored and posted to the lists - but
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> another teachers name on it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It may well just need to be the case that when we post materials to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> lists, we need to state (in the document as well as in the attached
>>>>>>>>> email), that the materials are free to use but may not be
>>>>>>>>> adapted or
>>>>>>>>> changed in any way without the permission of the author.... As
>>>>>>>>> I put
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> finishing touches on my 2008 SAC1 - I may well do this before I
>>>>>>>>> post
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> to the list? I would be interested to know what others think of
>>>>>>> this?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On another note - something which has been bothering me a great
>>>>>>>>> deal.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> After the review process took place last year and schools had the
>>>>>>> SACs
>>>>>>>>> and Assessments checked by VCAA - it became apparent that a large
>>>>>>> number
>>>>>>>>> of the sampled schools had used my SACs (more than half). Of the
>>>>>>>>> remaining schools, many had used the VITTA SACs. After posting the
>>>>>>> SACs
>>>>>>>>> to the lists, I had many requests for solutions which I tried to
>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>>>> as best I could. I don't mind doing this - however, I think this
>>>>>>> seems
>>>>>>>>> to suggest that there are few SD teachers creating their own
>>>>>>>>> original
>>>>>>>>> materials and/or solutions.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now - I don't mind doing the work and posting it for everyone to
>>>>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> think doing this is especially valuable to those starting out with
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> SD course or with programming in general. However, if you are
>>>>>>> familiar
>>>>>>>>> with the SD course - I think that you could be doing your own
>>>>>>> students a
>>>>>>>>> disservice by not writing your own materials and solutions (and
>>>>>>>>> hence
>>>>>>>>> becoming more familiar with the assessment criteria and the
>>>>>>>>> structure
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the course). In such a circumstance, I think it would be more
>>>>>>>>> appropriate for you to use my SAC materials (or any others that are
>>>>>>>>> posted) for practice SAC materials and / or inspiration for your
>>>>>>>>> own.
>>>>>>>>> There is no way I can prevent teachers from simply using my own (or
>>>>>>>>> others) work as a method of minimising their own workload -
>>>>>>>>> however,
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> would implore those engaging in this practice to think of the
>>>>>>>>> bigger
>>>>>>>>> picture.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Adrian Janson
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> VITTA President
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Director of ICT, Melbourne High School
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Poultney,
>>>>>>> Gordon A
>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 5 March 2008 12:13 PM
>>>>>>>>> *To:* Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We are talking about a 2 page SAC here, not the latest from Neal
>>>>>>>>> Stephenson...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Feel free to do what you want with Shagadelic - just don't put my
>>>>>>> name
>>>>>>>>> on it if you change it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you believe in copyright/credit , then Ross' simple attribution
>>>>>>>>> scheme looks good.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> gordon
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gordon Poultney
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Horsham College
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Stephen Digby
>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Wed 5/3/08 11:31
>>>>>>>>> *To:* 'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What about a simpler attribution such as
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Freds Carpet House v6 "Based on SAC by Mark Kelly 2007. Alterations
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>> Stephen Digby 2008, Gordon Poultney 2008"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just as the ridiculous copyright laws reduce the likelihood of
>>>>>>> attribution
>>>>>>>>> (less likely to get caught for copyright violation if you remove
>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>> re. source).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A overly complex attribution process may reduce the likelihood of
>>>>>>> sharing.
>>>>>>>>> As it is, most resources that I have are not able to be shared
>>>>>>> because of
>>>>>>>>> copyright (i.e. they are not mine to share)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lets develop a 'creative common' approach to as much materials as
>>>>>>>>> possible....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ====================================================
>>>>>>>>> Stephen Digby, Learning Technology Manager
>>>>>>>>> mailto: digby.stephen.p at edumail.vic.gov.au
>>>>>>>>> Cheltenham Secondary College www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au
>>>>>>>>> Ph: 613 955 55 955 Fx: 9555 8617 Mb: 0431-701-028
>>>>>>>>> ====================================================
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. Winston
>>>>>>>>> Churchill
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
>>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2008 10:15 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List; Year 12 IT
>>>>>>>>> Applications Teachers' Mailing List; Year 11 Information Technology
>>>>>>>>> Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (I've X-posted to the ITA and year 11 IT lists. Apols in advance.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I see an interesting and potentially worrying point developing
>>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If we adapt other people's tasks, I think we are obliged to retain
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> version information contained in the task and note ourselves as
>>>>>>> modifiers
>>>>>>>>> and let that info stay with the document in its further travels.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know I would be horrified if a task I created was later
>>>>>>>>> 'improved'
>>>>>>> by some
>>>>>>>>> anonymous person, thereby damaging it or (even worse) rendering
>>>>>>>>> it a
>>>>>>>>> violation of VCAA rules - with my name still proudly stuck on it as
>>>>>>> if I
>>>>>>>>> were solely responsible for its current condition!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When we distribute 'adapted' tasks, I recommend that we:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1. Of course, retain the original author's identity and document
>>>>>>> version
>>>>>>>>> number, if they are in the document. Give the poor authors credit
>>>>>>> for their
>>>>>>>>> labours!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. Add yourself to the credits as a 'modifier'.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3. Maybe even summarise your changes (and reasons?) in an
>>>>>>>>> addendum at
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> end of the document. This addendum can be removed for printing
>>>>>>> purposes by
>>>>>>>>> people who use it later, but it otherwise travels with the document
>>>>>>> as it
>>>>>>>>> morphs through the ether.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Poultney, Gordon A wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> i made up the original 'Shagadelic' which sounds like it has
>>>>>>> morphed
>>>>>>>>> into something else. There is only 1 network diagram in the
>>>>>>>>> original
>>>>>>> - for
>>>>>>>>> the new system .there is/was a marking scheme and complete network
>>>>>>> diagram
>>>>>>>>> for the teacher too.
>>>>>>>>>> cheers Gordon
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----------------
>>>>>>>>>> Gordon Poultney
>>>>>>>>>> Horsham College
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Maggie Iaquinto
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wed 5/3/08 9:14
>>>>>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you were using this practice SAC as the actual one, it
>>>>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>>>>> difficult to separate the marks for Task 1 (systems analysis and
>>>>>>>>>> design
>>>>>>>>>> - mistakenly called Task 2 here) from Task 2 (network
>>>>>>>>>> diagram). You
>>>>>>>>>> are required to report the marks for the tasks clearly and
>>>>>>> discretely.
>>>>>>>>>> Task 1 is 40 marks and Task 2 is 10 marks -- based on 50 for the
>>>>>>>>>> Outcome.
>>>>>>>>>> In the assessment sheet nearly 25 marks of the 50 are devoted to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> network diagram. This makes it tough to report accurately to VCAA
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>> what your students have received, in terms of the balance of
>>>>>>>>>> 40/10.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Task 2 (network diagram) must be for the proposed new system and
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> document requires the student to diagram the current and the new.
>>>>>>>>>> Sure, you can do that but it isn't necessary.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I notice also that there are marks given to presentation of the
>>>>>>> report.
>>>>>>>>>> IMHO I would put those marks into a more finely-grained
>>>>>>>>>> assessment
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> all the other Key Skills required in this Outcome.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Just an opinion.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Maggie
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2008 8:36 AM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If the task extended across the holidays, make sure the remaining
>>>>>>> part
>>>>>>>>>> is not given to them beforehand so they can't pre-produce stuff.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Claudia Graham wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Ross,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Re the practice SAC not sure who's that is so can't help there
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regarding the use of the internet not something I have done or
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>> do,
>>>>>>>>>>> for me it would be too hard to 'patrol'. But as long as all
>>>>>>> students
>>>>>>>>>>> have the same conditions it doesn't matter (mind you I don't
>>>>>>>>>>> have a
>>>>>>>>>>> study design or assessment hand book beside me to check re
>>>>>>>>>>> conditions)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Same for the time frame, I assume you mean a lesson or two
>>>>>>>>>>> prior to
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> holidays and then some after (or similar), not something I
>>>>>>>>>>> would do
>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>> for authentication purposes. I would do it all in a few
>>>>>>>>>>> lessons; I
>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>> even like weekends between assessment lessons if I can help it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Claudia Graham
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Overnewton College
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Keilor
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Ogilvie,
>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* 4 March 2008 7:50 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In regard to SD I have a couple of questions.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. I have given my class a **Practice SAC** called **Shagadelic
>>>>>>>>>>> Carpets** (refer to attachment) (hope the author is OK with
>>>>>>>>>>> this).
>>>>>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>>>>>> question is....does anyone have the solutions so I can check if I
>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> the right track.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2. When I give my students the actual SAC:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> i. Can/should they access the internet.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ii. Would there be a problem (in Vic) if the SAC extended
>>>>>>> through
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> Term One holiday period into Term Two.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Kindest Regards
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **Ross Ogilvie **
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **LSF ICT Leader **
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **Sunbury**** College**
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **30 Racecourse Rd****, Sunbury 3429**
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **Ph (W) 9744 1066 **
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ** (H) 54272843**
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **Bookmarks: http://del.icio.us/Ross1956**
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **Wiki: http://ross1956.wikispaces.com/**
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>> Manager - Information Systems
>>>>>>>> McKinnon Secondary College
>>>>>>>> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>>>>>>>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
>>>>>>>> School Phone +613 8520 9000
>>>>>>>> School Fax +613 95789253
>>>>>>>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/> <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/>
>>>>>>> <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/>
>>>>>>>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com <http://vceit.com/> <http://vceit.com/> <http://vceit.com/>
>>>>>>>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You'll know when we are officially a civilised race: our schools
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> all the money they need and the Air Force has to run a chook
>>>>>>>> raffle to
>>>>>>>> buy a new bomber.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/> <http://www.edulists.com.au/> <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
>>>>>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>>>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> -
>>>>>>>> Victorian
>>>>>>> Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>>>>>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/> <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
>>>>>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>>>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>>>>>> Authority and
>>>>>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>>>>> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.3/1306 - Release Date:
>>>>>>> 1/03/2008 5:41 PM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>>> Manager - Information Systems
>>>>>>> McKinnon Secondary College
>>>>>>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>>>>>> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>>>>>>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/> <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/>
>>>>>>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com <http://vceit.com/> <http://vceit.com/>
>>>>>>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Education is an admirable thing, but remember that nothing that is
>>>>>>> worth knowing can be taught - Oscar Wilde
>>>>>>> 2. I make trouble. You want some? - Mark Kelly
>>>>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>>>>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>>>>>>> Name: SD-U3O1_2007-Janson?s EZ-X10-Shuns-4U-v4small.zip
>>>>>>> Type: application/octet-stream
>>>>>>> Size: 93117 bytes
>>>>>>> Desc: not available
>>>>>>> Url :
>>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au/pipermail/sofdev/attachments/20080306/39b234f
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> b/SD-U3O1_2007-JansonsEZ-X10-Shuns-4U-v4small.obj
>>>>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>>>>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>>>>>>> Name: SD U3O2 2007 task pic1.jpg
>>>>>>> Type: image/jpeg
>>>>>>> Size: 46037 bytes
>>>>>>> Desc: not available
>>>>>>> Url :
>>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au/pipermail/sofdev/attachments/20080306/39b234f
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> b/SDU3O22007taskpic1.jpg
>>>>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>>>>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>>>>>>> Name: SD U3O2 2007 task pic2.jpg
>>>>>>> Type: image/jpeg
>>>>>>> Size: 29249 bytes
>>>>>>> Desc: not available
>>>>>>> Url :
>>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au/pipermail/sofdev/attachments/20080306/39b234f
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> b/SDU3O22007taskpic2.jpg
>>>>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>>>>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
>>>>>>> Name: SD U3O2 2007-vangogo-v5.doc
>>>>>>> Type: application/msword
>>>>>>> Size: 45568 bytes
>>>>>>> Desc: not available
>>>>>>> Url :
>>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au/pipermail/sofdev/attachments/20080306/39b234f
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> b/SDU3O22007-vangogo-v5.doc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> sofdev mailing list
>>>>>>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> End of sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17
>>>>>>> **************************************
>>>>>>> ******************************************************************************
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **** NOTICE FROM Gordon Institute of TAFE ****
>>>>>>> This message is confidential, and may contain proprietary or legally
>>>>>>> privileged information. If you have received this email in error,
>>>>>>> please
>>>>>>> notify the sender and delete it immediately. Please take appropriate
>>>>>>> precautions when communicating across the internet. The Gordon
>>>>>>> Institute
>>>>>>> of TAFE under no circumstances accepts liability for any loss or
>>>>>>> damage
>>>>>>> which may result from your receipt of this message or any
>>>>>>> attachments.
>>>>>>> ******************************************************************************
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/> <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
>>>>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>>>>>> Authority
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>>>>>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/> <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
>>>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>>>>> Authority and
>>>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>>>>>> - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>> Manager - Information Systems
>>>>> McKinnon Secondary College
>>>>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>>>> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>>>>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>>>>>
>>>>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/> <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/>
>>>>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com <http://vceit.com/> <http://vceit.com/>
>>>>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Education is an admirable thing, but remember that nothing that
>>>>> is worth knowing can be taught - Oscar Wilde
>>>>> 2. I make trouble. You want some? - Mark Kelly
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/> <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
>>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>>>> Authority and
>>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>>>>> - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/> <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>>> Authority and
>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mark Kelly
>>> Manager - Information Systems
>>> McKinnon Secondary College
>>> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
>>> School Phone +613 8520 9000
>>> School Fax +613 95789253
>>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>>
>>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/> <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/>
>>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com <http://vceit.com/> <http://vceit.com/>
>>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>>
>>> You'll know when we are officially a civilised race: our schools have
>>> all the money they need and the Air Force has to run a chook raffle to
>>> buy a new bomber.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/> <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>> Authority and
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/> <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>> Authority and
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>
>>
>>
>
--
Mark Kelly
Manager - Information Systems
McKinnon Secondary College
McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
School Phone +613 8520 9000
School Fax +613 95789253
kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/> <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/>
IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com <http://vceit.com/> <http://vceit.com/>
Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
You'll know when we are officially a civilised race: our schools have
all the money they need and the Air Force has to run a chook raffle to
buy a new bomber.
_______________________________________________
http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/> <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
_______________________________________________
http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/> <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
_______________________________________________
http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
_______________________________________________
http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 111915 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://www.edulists.com.au/pipermail/sofdev/attachments/20080312/0c70b64c/attachment-0001.bin
More information about the sofdev
mailing list