[Year 12 SofDev] RE: sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 38
Ogilvie, Ross A
ogilvie.ross.a at edumail.vic.gov.au
Mon Mar 10 19:15:45 EST 2008
Hi all,
I hope I don't sound too dumb here but I have been trying to get my head around the difference between the physical and logical designs as they should appear in Unit 3 SAC1. I'm really not sure how the data for each should be represented.
Thanks for you time anyone.
Regards
Ross Ogilvie
LSF ICT Leader
Sunbury College
30 Racecourse Rd, Sunbury 3429
Ph (W) 9744 1066
(H) 54272843
Bookmarks: http://del.icio.us/Ross1956
Wiki: http://ross1956.wikispaces.com/
________________________________
From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
Sent: Fri 7/03/2008 10:54 PM
To: sofdev at edulists.com.au
Subject: sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 38
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: RE: sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17 (Kevork Krozian)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 22:53:16 +1100
From: Kevork Krozian <kevork at edulists.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17
To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
<sofdev at edulists.com.au>
Message-ID: <014c01c88049$d524dd30$0301a8c0 at laptopkro>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=response
Hi Mark,
I guess my point is you have had 10 more years of experience as MIS than
many SD teachers presenting in front of classes in Victoria.
As for the programming , your initiative is what has got you where you are.
Mine was a formal Comp Sci degree circa early 80s, but all I do and use now
I have had to learn, unlearn and relearn.
All that I still use from my formal degree days is the idea of efficient
processing ( database back end for data gathering rather than intermittent
emails arriving with information that needs to be organised to make any use
of it) , knowledge of numerical computations ( how mathematical functions
are approximated in computers ), data structures ( files, arrays, records,
pointers, trees etc ) , sorting/searching algorithms and more of the same.
I had to learn about networking on the job as IT manager which began around
1992 and the rest of the Study Design through each change every 3 - 4 years.
Ultimately it is real life experience that reinforces understanding. Even
networking instructors don't fully understand the theory unless they are
working with the hardware and software. Eg. Frame Relay is a WAN topic I
teach in Cisco but don't feel great about as I have never used it nor seen
it in action. By contrast, ADSL, ISDN, VPN is technology I have and do use
and can teach with confidence.
Keep well
Kevork Krozian
Edulists Creator and Administrator
www.edulists.com.au
kevork at edulists.com.au
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Kelly" <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
<sofdev at edulists.com.au>
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17
> I've been a MIS at McKinnon since 1998.
>
> I taught myself BASIC on a 4K RAM TRS-80 in 1978 and spent too many hours
> over 20 years on various platforms including Apple ][, Vic-20, Commodore
> 64, Microbee, Amiga, PC and a Cyber mainframe playing with flavours of
> BASIC, C, Pascal, COBOL, 6502 and Z80 machine code and assembly language.
>
> I still remember 42E9 as the starting point of the BASIC interpreter in
> the TRS-80 ROM. Sigh.
>
> Kevork Krozian wrote:
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> I know your degree is in English and Psych but for how long have you been
>> a network manager ?
>> and how /when did you learn programming ?
>>
>>
>> Kind Regards
>> Kevork Krozian
>> Edulists Creator and Administrator
>> www.edulists.com.au
>> kevork at edulists.com.au
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Kelly"
>> <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 5:14 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17
>>
>>
>>> I have a BA in English and Psych - does that count?
>>>
>>> It would be really helpful to know what PD audiences really wanted to
>>> hear. Perhaps VITTA could pre-test people signing up for PD to find
>>> what 'favour' they want the PD to be. e.g. "Networking facts" vs "How
>>> to teach networking".
>>>
>>> I remember at the start of the 2003 study design I suggested to VITTA
>>> that teachers needed to be taught networking theory rather than how to
>>> teach networking to kids, and it was a big hit.
>>>
>>> Without the knowledge of what an audience really wants to hear, I often
>>> have to guess and try to cover 3 areas of interest in one long, fast
>>> presentation, hoping to satisfy everyone at least part of the time*.
>>>
>>> Even teacher PD is a mixed ability classroom :-)
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> * the story of my love life :-(
>>>
>>> Kevork Krozian wrote:
>>>> Hi Theresa,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your honesty in stating it is ok to admit not to know the
>>>> technical stuff and this from someone with an info systems degree. Do
>>>> all
>>>> our SD teachers have a degree in the area ?
>>>> And if you are not comfortable with the technical stuff - do I
>>>> understand
>>>> VPN, client server, WAN technologies, and more here? -- then how many
>>>> more without quals feel even less comfortable ?
>>>> I concur with your sentiments about the breaking down of the study
>>>> design
>>>> with little specificity being of little value. Yes, the VITTA CD has
>>>> gone
>>>> a long way to addressing the lack of specific sample work but there
>>>> have
>>>> been some quality assurance issues related to this.
>>>> Futhermore, there is no point in everyone doing the same VITTA sample
>>>> SAC from the CD. It is just repeating the problem using a different
>>>> source.
>>>>
>>>> Keep well
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kevork Krozian
>>>> Mailing List Administrator
>>>> kevork at edulists.com.au
>>>> www.edulists.com.au
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> In regards to the present topic, I have a degree in Information
>>>>> systems
>>>>> and am confident with teaching the theory of Systems analysis and
>>>>> design, but feel nervous with some of the technical stuff because it
>>>>> has
>>>>> changed so much in the past five years since I last taught IS so I
>>>>> signed up to the recent VITTA workshops. I was dissapointed with the
>>>>> workshops, which basically did no more than break down the Study
>>>>> design,
>>>>> something I can do myself. I feel that some more specific PD for
>>>>> networking, modelling and even programming - like building programs
>>>>> for
>>>>> portable devices would really be more helpful.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Theresa Gate
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of
>>>>> sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, 6 March 2008 11:42 AM
>>>>> To: sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>>>> Subject: sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17
>>>>>
>>>>> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
>>>>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>>>>
>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>>> sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>>>>>
>>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>>> sofdev-owner at edulists.com.au
>>>>>
>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>>> than
>>>>> "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Re: Why aren't teachers able to write their own material ?
>>>>> (Kevork Krozian)
>>>>> 2. Re: Copyright / authorship / solutions / ?? (Mark Kelly)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 1
>>>>> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 11:32:07 +1100
>>>>> From: "Kevork Krozian" <Kroset at novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Why aren't teachers able to write their
>>>>> own material ?
>>>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>>>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>>>> Message-ID: <47CFD635.EE3E.0095.0 at novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Adrian and Mark,
>>>>>
>>>>> Very good points but more broadly a symptom of a wider problem we
>>>>> keep avoiding.
>>>>> If teachers are not confident about assessing a topic ( to say nothing
>>>>> about teaching it effectively ) then we need to address this issue.
>>>>> I know we are all overworked but if we are teaching a class we need to
>>>>> be fair to the students and ourselves.
>>>>>
>>>>> In reality if you are not an active network manager or Cisco
>>>>> instructor, you would struggle to understand networks and maybe not
>>>>> know
>>>>> a bus network even if you were run over by one.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know VITTA and the VCAA almost do miracles ( not least in their
>>>>> active and meaningful support of Edulists and PD ) but why are
>>>>> teachers
>>>>> unable to write their own SACs with confidence and conviction and with
>>>>> solutions they can show others ?
>>>>>
>>>>> I would say because the training and the need for new and current
>>>>> training has not kept up with the demands of the course(s). What do
>>>>> we
>>>>> do about this ?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we need to stop patching these problems with band aids and
>>>>> need
>>>>> to go up the tree (DEECD, the new Rudd govt. initiative or wherever
>>>>> else
>>>>> we need to go) where there is decent and proper funding to deliver
>>>>> updated courses and training rather than doing it on the cheap.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't want to drag down decent hardworking teachers doing the best
>>>>> they can with what little they have - I want to lift them .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my thoughts
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Kevork
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au> 6/03/2008 8:28 am >>>
>>>>> Good points there, Adrian. I have a gut feeling that people feel
>>>>> rather
>>>>>
>>>>> more intimidated writing SD outcomes than they do ITA. It's that much
>>>>>
>>>>> more complex.
>>>>>
>>>>> In a similar vein, I've just finished writing a commercial practice SD
>>>>>
>>>>> exam and it took much more thinking than the equivalent ITA exam.
>>>>>
>>>>> Adrian Janson wrote:
>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is a potentially tricky issue - and as one who often posts his
>>>>> SAC
>>>>>> and theory materials to the lists - one that I must confess is a bit
>>>>> of
>>>>>> a concern.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Speaking personally, when I post my materials to the lists - I would
>>>>>> like to think that those who are making use of them do so in the
>>>>> spirit
>>>>>> in which they have been posted - giving credit where it is due and
>>>>> not
>>>>>> altering things with a view to reposting them. I think the part of
>>>>> this
>>>>>> that is the most worrying is that some material did find its way back
>>>>> to
>>>>>> me which I had originally authored and posted to the lists - but with
>>>>>> another teachers name on it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It may well just need to be the case that when we post materials to
>>>>> the
>>>>>> lists, we need to state (in the document as well as in the attached
>>>>>> email), that the materials are free to use but may not be adapted or
>>>>>> changed in any way without the permission of the author*. As I put
>>>>> the
>>>>>> finishing touches on my 2008 SAC1 - I may well do this before I post
>>>>> it
>>>>>> to the list? I would be interested to know what others think of
>>>>> this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On another note - something which has been bothering me a great
>>>>> deal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After the review process took place last year and schools had the
>>>>> SACs
>>>>>> and Assessments checked by VCAA - it became apparent that a large
>>>>> number
>>>>>> of the sampled schools had used my SACs (more than half). Of the
>>>>>> remaining schools, many had used the VITTA SACs. After posting the
>>>>> SACs
>>>>>> to the lists, I had many requests for solutions which I tried to
>>>>> provide
>>>>>> as best I could. I don*t mind doing this - however, I think this
>>>>> seems
>>>>>> to suggest that there are few SD teachers creating their own original
>>>>>> materials and/or solutions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now - I don*t mind doing the work and posting it for everyone to
>>>>> use. I
>>>>>> think doing this is especially valuable to those starting out with
>>>>> the
>>>>>> SD course or with programming in general. However, if you are
>>>>> familiar
>>>>>> with the SD course - I think that you could be doing your own
>>>>> students a
>>>>>> disservice by not writing your own materials and solutions (and hence
>>>>>> becoming more familiar with the assessment criteria and the structure
>>>>> of
>>>>>> the course). In such a circumstance, I think it would be more
>>>>>> appropriate for you to use my SAC materials (or any others that are
>>>>>> posted) for practice SAC materials and / or inspiration for your own.
>>>>>> There is no way I can prevent teachers from simply using my own (or
>>>>>> others) work as a method of minimising their own workload - however,
>>>>> I
>>>>>> would implore those engaging in this practice to think of the bigger
>>>>>> picture.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Adrian Janson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> VITTA President
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Director of ICT, Melbourne High School
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Poultney,
>>>>> Gordon A
>>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 5 March 2008 12:13 PM
>>>>>> *To:* Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are talking about a 2 page SAC here, not the latest from Neal
>>>>>> Stephenson...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Feel free to do what you want with Shagadelic - just don't put my
>>>>> name
>>>>>> on it if you change it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you believe in copyright/credit , then Ross' simple attribution
>>>>>> scheme looks good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> gordon
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gordon Poultney
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Horsham College
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Stephen Digby
>>>>>> *Sent:* Wed 5/3/08 11:31
>>>>>> *To:* 'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'
>>>>>> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What about a simpler attribution such as
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Freds Carpet House v6 "Based on SAC by Mark Kelly 2007. Alterations
>>>>> by
>>>>>> Stephen Digby 2008, Gordon Poultney 2008"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just as the ridiculous copyright laws reduce the likelihood of
>>>>> attribution
>>>>>> (less likely to get caught for copyright violation if you remove all
>>>>> info
>>>>>> re. source).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A overly complex attribution process may reduce the likelihood of
>>>>> sharing.
>>>>>> As it is, most resources that I have are not able to be shared
>>>>> because of
>>>>>> copyright (i.e. they are not mine to share)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lets develop a 'creative common' approach to as much materials as
>>>>>> possible....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ====================================================
>>>>>> Stephen Digby, Learning Technology Manager
>>>>>> mailto: digby.stephen.p at edumail.vic.gov.au
>>>>>> Cheltenham Secondary College www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au
>>>>>> Ph: 613 955 55 955 Fx: 9555 8617 Mb: 0431-701-028
>>>>>> ====================================================
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. Winston
>>>>>> Churchill
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
>>>>>> On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2008 10:15 AM
>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List; Year 12 IT
>>>>>> Applications Teachers' Mailing List; Year 11 Information Technology
>>>>>> Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (I've X-posted to the ITA and year 11 IT lists. Apols in advance.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I see an interesting and potentially worrying point developing here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If we adapt other people's tasks, I think we are obliged to retain
>>>>> the
>>>>>> version information contained in the task and note ourselves as
>>>>> modifiers
>>>>>> and let that info stay with the document in its further travels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know I would be horrified if a task I created was later 'improved'
>>>>> by some
>>>>>> anonymous person, thereby damaging it or (even worse) rendering it a
>>>>>> violation of VCAA rules - with my name still proudly stuck on it as
>>>>> if I
>>>>>> were solely responsible for its current condition!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When we distribute 'adapted' tasks, I recommend that we:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Of course, retain the original author's identity and document
>>>>> version
>>>>>> number, if they are in the document. Give the poor authors credit
>>>>> for their
>>>>>> labours!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Add yourself to the credits as a 'modifier'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. Maybe even summarise your changes (and reasons?) in an addendum at
>>>>> the
>>>>>> end of the document. This addendum can be removed for printing
>>>>> purposes by
>>>>>> people who use it later, but it otherwise travels with the document
>>>>> as it
>>>>>> morphs through the ether.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Poultney, Gordon A wrote:
>>>>>>> i made up the original 'Shagadelic' which sounds like it has
>>>>> morphed
>>>>>> into something else. There is only 1 network diagram in the original
>>>>> - for
>>>>>> the new system .there is/was a marking scheme and complete network
>>>>> diagram
>>>>>> for the teacher too.
>>>>>>> cheers Gordon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----------------
>>>>>>> Gordon Poultney
>>>>>>> Horsham College
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Maggie Iaquinto
>>>>>>> Sent: Wed 5/3/08 9:14
>>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you were using this practice SAC as the actual one, it would be
>>>>>>> difficult to separate the marks for Task 1 (systems analysis and
>>>>>>> design
>>>>>>> - mistakenly called Task 2 here) from Task 2 (network diagram).
>>>>> You
>>>>>>> are required to report the marks for the tasks clearly and
>>>>> discretely.
>>>>>>> Task 1 is 40 marks and Task 2 is 10 marks -- based on 50 for the
>>>>>>> Outcome.
>>>>>>> In the assessment sheet nearly 25 marks of the 50 are devoted to
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> network diagram. This makes it tough to report accurately to VCAA
>>>>> just
>>>>>>> what your students have received, in terms of the balance of
>>>>> 40/10.
>>>>>>> Task 2 (network diagram) must be for the proposed new system and
>>>>> this
>>>>>>> document requires the student to diagram the current and the new.
>>>>>>> Sure, you can do that but it isn't necessary.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I notice also that there are marks given to presentation of the
>>>>> report.
>>>>>>> IMHO I would put those marks into a more finely-grained assessment
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> all the other Key Skills required in this Outcome.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just an opinion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maggie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2008 8:36 AM
>>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the task extended across the holidays, make sure the remaining
>>>>> part
>>>>>>> is not given to them beforehand so they can't pre-produce stuff.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Claudia Graham wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi Ross,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Re the practice SAC not sure who's that is so can't help there
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regarding the use of the internet not something I have done or
>>>>> would
>>>>>>> do,
>>>>>>>> for me it would be too hard to 'patrol'. But as long as all
>>>>> students
>>>>>>>> have the same conditions it doesn't matter (mind you I don't have
>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> study design or assessment hand book beside me to check re
>>>>>>>> conditions)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Same for the time frame, I assume you mean a lesson or two prior
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> holidays and then some after (or similar), not something I would
>>>>> do
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> for authentication purposes. I would do it all in a few lessons;
>>>>> I
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>> even like weekends between assessment lessons if I can help it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Claudia Graham
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Overnewton College
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Keilor
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Ogilvie,
>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>>> *Sent:* 4 March 2008 7:50 PM
>>>>>>>> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In regard to SD I have a couple of questions.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. I have given my class a **Practice SAC** called **Shagadelic
>>>>>>>> Carpets** (refer to attachment) (hope the author is OK with
>>>>> this).
>>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>>> question is....does anyone have the solutions so I can check if I
>>>>> am
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> the right track.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2. When I give my students the actual SAC:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> i. Can/should they access the internet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ii. Would there be a problem (in Vic) if the SAC extended
>>>>> through
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> Term One holiday period into Term Two.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kindest Regards
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **Ross Ogilvie **
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **LSF ICT Leader **
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **Sunbury**** College**
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **30 Racecourse Rd****, Sunbury 3429**
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **Ph (W) 9744 1066 **
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ** (H) 54272843**
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **Bookmarks: http://del.icio.us/Ross1956**
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **Wiki: http://ross1956.wikispaces.com/**
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>> --
>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>> Manager - Information Systems
>>>>> McKinnon Secondary College
>>>>> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia Direct line /
>>>>> Voicemail:
>>>>> 8520 9085 School Phone +613 8520 9000 School Fax +613 95789253 kel AT
>>>>> mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>>>>
>>>>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/> IT Lecture notes:
>>>>> http://vceit.com <http://vceit.com/>
>>>>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>>>>
>>>>> You'll know when we are officially a civilised race: our schools have
>>>>> all the money they need and the Air Force has to run a chook raffle to
>>>>>
>>>>> buy a new bomber.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
>>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>>>> Authority and
>>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>>>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 2
>>>>> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 11:36:38 +1100
>>>>> From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Copyright / authorship / solutions / ??
>>>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>>>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>>>> Message-ID: <47CF3C96.1000409 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah - I didn't notice you were chasing SD stuff... I assumed it was
>>>>> ITA.
>>>>> I don't know if there are SD QATs. Your best bet is to check the
>>>>> VITTA resources. There are SD SACs there.
>>>>>
>>>>> I will attach the U3 outcomes I used last year, which were approved by
>>>>> VCAA during their audit of my material.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Fatima Nazar wrote:
>>>>>> Hello Mark,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have looked into QATs and even sent them an email (no reply as yet)
>>>>> about SD - I am brand new to SD and would LOVE to even buy some SACs
>>>>> with suggested solutions as I would then know what can be an excellent
>>>>> answer :) so let me know if you have some up your sleeve please
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Fatima
>>>>>> (have 2 SD classes)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Mark Kelly
>>>>>> Sent: Thu 3/6/2008 8:28 AM
>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Copyright / authorship / solutions / ??
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good points there, Adrian. I have a gut feeling that people feel
>>>>> rather
>>>>>> more intimidated writing SD outcomes than they do ITA. It's that
>>>>>> much
>>>>>> more complex.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In a similar vein, I've just finished writing a commercial practice
>>>>>> SD
>>>>>> exam and it took much more thinking than the equivalent ITA exam.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Adrian Janson wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is a potentially tricky issue - and as one who often posts his
>>>>> SAC
>>>>>>> and theory materials to the lists - one that I must confess is a bit
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> a concern.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Speaking personally, when I post my materials to the lists - I would
>>>>>>> like to think that those who are making use of them do so in the
>>>>> spirit
>>>>>>> in which they have been posted - giving credit where it is due and
>>>>> not
>>>>>>> altering things with a view to reposting them. I think the part of
>>>>> this
>>>>>>> that is the most worrying is that some material did find its way
>>>>>>> back
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> me which I had originally authored and posted to the lists - but
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> another teachers name on it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It may well just need to be the case that when we post materials to
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> lists, we need to state (in the document as well as in the attached
>>>>>>> email), that the materials are free to use but may not be adapted or
>>>>>>> changed in any way without the permission of the author.... As I
>>>>>>> put
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> finishing touches on my 2008 SAC1 - I may well do this before I post
>>>>> it
>>>>>>> to the list? I would be interested to know what others think of
>>>>> this?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On another note - something which has been bothering me a great
>>>>>>> deal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After the review process took place last year and schools had the
>>>>> SACs
>>>>>>> and Assessments checked by VCAA - it became apparent that a large
>>>>> number
>>>>>>> of the sampled schools had used my SACs (more than half). Of the
>>>>>>> remaining schools, many had used the VITTA SACs. After posting the
>>>>> SACs
>>>>>>> to the lists, I had many requests for solutions which I tried to
>>>>> provide
>>>>>>> as best I could. I don't mind doing this - however, I think this
>>>>> seems
>>>>>>> to suggest that there are few SD teachers creating their own
>>>>>>> original
>>>>>>> materials and/or solutions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now - I don't mind doing the work and posting it for everyone to
>>>>>>> use.
>>>>> I
>>>>>>> think doing this is especially valuable to those starting out with
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> SD course or with programming in general. However, if you are
>>>>> familiar
>>>>>>> with the SD course - I think that you could be doing your own
>>>>> students a
>>>>>>> disservice by not writing your own materials and solutions (and
>>>>>>> hence
>>>>>>> becoming more familiar with the assessment criteria and the
>>>>>>> structure
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the course). In such a circumstance, I think it would be more
>>>>>>> appropriate for you to use my SAC materials (or any others that are
>>>>>>> posted) for practice SAC materials and / or inspiration for your
>>>>>>> own.
>>>>>>> There is no way I can prevent teachers from simply using my own (or
>>>>>>> others) work as a method of minimising their own workload - however,
>>>>> I
>>>>>>> would implore those engaging in this practice to think of the bigger
>>>>>>> picture.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Adrian Janson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> VITTA President
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Director of ICT, Melbourne High School
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Poultney,
>>>>> Gordon A
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 5 March 2008 12:13 PM
>>>>>>> *To:* Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We are talking about a 2 page SAC here, not the latest from Neal
>>>>>>> Stephenson...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Feel free to do what you want with Shagadelic - just don't put my
>>>>> name
>>>>>>> on it if you change it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you believe in copyright/credit , then Ross' simple attribution
>>>>>>> scheme looks good.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> gordon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gordon Poultney
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Horsham College
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Stephen Digby
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Wed 5/3/08 11:31
>>>>>>> *To:* 'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'
>>>>>>> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What about a simpler attribution such as
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Freds Carpet House v6 "Based on SAC by Mark Kelly 2007. Alterations
>>>>> by
>>>>>>> Stephen Digby 2008, Gordon Poultney 2008"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just as the ridiculous copyright laws reduce the likelihood of
>>>>> attribution
>>>>>>> (less likely to get caught for copyright violation if you remove all
>>>>> info
>>>>>>> re. source).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A overly complex attribution process may reduce the likelihood of
>>>>> sharing.
>>>>>>> As it is, most resources that I have are not able to be shared
>>>>> because of
>>>>>>> copyright (i.e. they are not mine to share)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lets develop a 'creative common' approach to as much materials as
>>>>>>> possible....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ====================================================
>>>>>>> Stephen Digby, Learning Technology Manager
>>>>>>> mailto: digby.stephen.p at edumail.vic.gov.au
>>>>>>> Cheltenham Secondary College www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au
>>>>>>> Ph: 613 955 55 955 Fx: 9555 8617 Mb: 0431-701-028
>>>>>>> ====================================================
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. Winston
>>>>>>> Churchill
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2008 10:15 AM
>>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List; Year 12 IT
>>>>>>> Applications Teachers' Mailing List; Year 11 Information Technology
>>>>>>> Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (I've X-posted to the ITA and year 11 IT lists. Apols in advance.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I see an interesting and potentially worrying point developing here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If we adapt other people's tasks, I think we are obliged to retain
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> version information contained in the task and note ourselves as
>>>>> modifiers
>>>>>>> and let that info stay with the document in its further travels.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know I would be horrified if a task I created was later 'improved'
>>>>> by some
>>>>>>> anonymous person, thereby damaging it or (even worse) rendering it a
>>>>>>> violation of VCAA rules - with my name still proudly stuck on it as
>>>>> if I
>>>>>>> were solely responsible for its current condition!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When we distribute 'adapted' tasks, I recommend that we:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Of course, retain the original author's identity and document
>>>>> version
>>>>>>> number, if they are in the document. Give the poor authors credit
>>>>> for their
>>>>>>> labours!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. Add yourself to the credits as a 'modifier'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3. Maybe even summarise your changes (and reasons?) in an addendum
>>>>>>> at
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> end of the document. This addendum can be removed for printing
>>>>> purposes by
>>>>>>> people who use it later, but it otherwise travels with the document
>>>>> as it
>>>>>>> morphs through the ether.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Poultney, Gordon A wrote:
>>>>>>>> i made up the original 'Shagadelic' which sounds like it has
>>>>> morphed
>>>>>>> into something else. There is only 1 network diagram in the original
>>>>> - for
>>>>>>> the new system .there is/was a marking scheme and complete network
>>>>> diagram
>>>>>>> for the teacher too.
>>>>>>>> cheers Gordon
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----------------
>>>>>>>> Gordon Poultney
>>>>>>>> Horsham College
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Maggie Iaquinto
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wed 5/3/08 9:14
>>>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you were using this practice SAC as the actual one, it would be
>>>>>>>> difficult to separate the marks for Task 1 (systems analysis and
>>>>>>>> design
>>>>>>>> - mistakenly called Task 2 here) from Task 2 (network diagram).
>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>> are required to report the marks for the tasks clearly and
>>>>> discretely.
>>>>>>>> Task 1 is 40 marks and Task 2 is 10 marks -- based on 50 for the
>>>>>>>> Outcome.
>>>>>>>> In the assessment sheet nearly 25 marks of the 50 are devoted to
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> network diagram. This makes it tough to report accurately to VCAA
>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> what your students have received, in terms of the balance of
>>>>>>>> 40/10.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Task 2 (network diagram) must be for the proposed new system and
>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> document requires the student to diagram the current and the new.
>>>>>>>> Sure, you can do that but it isn't necessary.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I notice also that there are marks given to presentation of the
>>>>> report.
>>>>>>>> IMHO I would put those marks into a more finely-grained assessment
>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> all the other Key Skills required in this Outcome.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just an opinion.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Maggie
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2008 8:36 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the task extended across the holidays, make sure the remaining
>>>>> part
>>>>>>>> is not given to them beforehand so they can't pre-produce stuff.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Claudia Graham wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi Ross,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Re the practice SAC not sure who's that is so can't help there
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regarding the use of the internet not something I have done or
>>>>> would
>>>>>>>> do,
>>>>>>>>> for me it would be too hard to 'patrol'. But as long as all
>>>>> students
>>>>>>>>> have the same conditions it doesn't matter (mind you I don't have
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> study design or assessment hand book beside me to check re
>>>>>>>>> conditions)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Same for the time frame, I assume you mean a lesson or two prior
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> holidays and then some after (or similar), not something I would
>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>> for authentication purposes. I would do it all in a few lessons; I
>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>> even like weekends between assessment lessons if I can help it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Claudia Graham
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Overnewton College
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Keilor
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Ogilvie,
>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* 4 March 2008 7:50 PM
>>>>>>>>> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In regard to SD I have a couple of questions.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1. I have given my class a **Practice SAC** called **Shagadelic
>>>>>>>>> Carpets** (refer to attachment) (hope the author is OK with
>>>>>>>>> this).
>>>>>>>>> My
>>>>>>>>> question is....does anyone have the solutions so I can check if I
>>>>> am
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> the right track.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. When I give my students the actual SAC:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> i. Can/should they access the internet.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ii. Would there be a problem (in Vic) if the SAC extended
>>>>> through
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> Term One holiday period into Term Two.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Kindest Regards
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> **Ross Ogilvie **
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> **LSF ICT Leader **
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> **Sunbury**** College**
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> **30 Racecourse Rd****, Sunbury 3429**
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> **Ph (W) 9744 1066 **
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ** (H) 54272843**
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> **Bookmarks: http://del.icio.us/Ross1956**
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> **Wiki: http://ross1956.wikispaces.com/**
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>>> Manager - Information Systems
>>>>>> McKinnon Secondary College
>>>>>> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>>>>>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
>>>>>> School Phone +613 8520 9000
>>>>>> School Fax +613 95789253
>>>>>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/>
>>>>> <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/>
>>>>>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com <http://vceit.com/> <http://vceit.com/>
>>>>>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You'll know when we are officially a civilised race: our schools have
>>>>>> all the money they need and the Air Force has to run a chook raffle
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> buy a new bomber.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/> <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
>>>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian
>>>>> Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>>>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>>>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
>>>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>>>> Authority and
>>>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>>>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>>> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.3/1306 - Release Date:
>>>>> 1/03/2008 5:41 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>> Manager - Information Systems
>>>>> McKinnon Secondary College
>>>>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>>>> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>>>>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>>>>>
>>>>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/>
>>>>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com <http://vceit.com/>
>>>>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Education is an admirable thing, but remember that nothing that is
>>>>> worth knowing can be taught - Oscar Wilde
>>>>> 2. I make trouble. You want some? - Mark Kelly
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>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> sofdev mailing list
>>>>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> End of sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17
>>>>> **************************************
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>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
>>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>>> Authority and
>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mark Kelly
>>> Manager - Information Systems
>>> McKinnon Secondary College
>>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>>>
>>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/>
>>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com <http://vceit.com/>
>>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>>
>>> 1. Education is an admirable thing, but remember that nothing that is
>>> worth knowing can be taught - Oscar Wilde
>>> 2. I make trouble. You want some? - Mark Kelly
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>> Authority and
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>> Authority and
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Mark Kelly
> Manager - Information Systems
> McKinnon Secondary College
> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
> School Phone +613 8520 9000
> School Fax +613 95789253
> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>
> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/>
> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com <http://vceit.com/>
> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>
> You'll know when we are officially a civilised race: our schools have all
> the money they need and the Air Force has to run a chook raffle to buy a
> new bomber.
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority
> and
> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>
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