[Year 12 SofDev] Doubts about a member

Sun Apr 27 22:57:17 EST 2008

Hi Robert and Andrew Barry,

 Despite repeated requests from more than one person both on and off list to "Andrew Barry" to identify himself in terms of the school he works at along with his real name if relevant, "Andrew Barry" has simply ignored these emails.
I have reminded "Andrew Barry" of the list netiquette guidelines , specifically item 9 both by confirmation email during subscription and also found on the edulists home page : 

9. Always identify his or her self with a clear signature that shows name, location of school ( if applicable ) and capacity in which participating on the list eg. Teacher of the subject , faculty leader, industry representative 

Despite very polite, tactful and diplomatic emails, we have had no luck in either getting "Andrew Barry" to comply or to reply to the request.. During confirmation of request for subscription the welcome message states if the prospective member is unhappy about any of the conditions of membership to immediately unsubscribe with link supplied. Again ,  "Andrew Barry" has refused to give the professional courtesy he expects in return, when he has written to the list or helps a debate move along with his input. 

Of course there are bigger issues to consume my time as Administrator, or a teacher or a private citizen, especially on a Sunday night or at any other time, but I do feel "Andrew Barry" has disappointed, no annoyed a number of people with his attitude towards this forum. 

Therefore, I am removing the account jagguy999 at gmail.com due to netiquette guideline breaches and blocking it from resubscribing. If "Andrew Barry" reappears in another incarnation we'll deal with it then.

What a stupid waste of time to compose this ridiculous email as if I am dealing with a Year 8 student misbehaving.  

Good night 

Kevork Krozian
Edulists Creator and Administrator
www.edulists.com.au
kevork at edulists.com.au

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Robert Hind 
  To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List 
  Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 3:24 PM
  Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice

  Have I misssed something along the way?

  I still have no idea who Andrew Barry  (jagguy999 at gmail.com) is.

  So he might be a valuable member of our list or he may be a rogue or a student or ?????

  Please can we have some sort of identification with each email to the list..

  Robert Hind (Semi-retired)
  Ex Traralgon and Ashwood

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: andrew barry 
    To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List 
    Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2008 1:02 PM
    Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice

    Hi,

    I believe a subject should produce quality outcomes. A programming course that provides students with knowledge to create things like a 2D game is a quality output. What is better that a student can complete  simple form that calculates numbers compared to a a fully functional 2D game that is graphical and uses a wide range of  functionality that a programming language offers. 

    At the end of the course if parents/potential students  see an interesting interactive piece of software compared to a form that calculates numbers they are more likely to be impressed.
    We could incorporate physics and maths into the course eg how an object falls from a height using physics and use a program to demonstrate how this looks. We can actually use what students have learnt in other subjects making IT programming more integrated with other subjects. The scope is huge.

    I remember seeing yr9 students being impressed that we are creating such software , they wanted to undertake IT as it looks like fun. Also schools like to display students work for parents/teachers and quality software is impressive.
    Teachers like myself need to make an impact because of short term contract work. A quality output is a good start to retain employment. Contract employment is everywhere.

    To learn gantt/pert charts takes weeks of constant work, DFD's takes weeks to do properly, and why do we need  memorize such information like the difference between a business object and a business goal in IT?

    Why are students learning applications anyway like Access,Dreamweaver because wont these change in years to come? Wasnt this an argument against just learning a programming language?

    Do woodwork students produce a finished item or do they produce a 2 bits of wood with a join. Have they spent their other time constructing lengthy designs, and doing essays about tree regrowth and how important this is too society, or business models of wood factories?

    Remember many teachers need to sell their subjects to get the numbers, and we cant just rely on them turning up and going along with all our ideas of a rounded education. I know we are in education but IT is subject (to a point) of market forces.

    On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Adrian Janson <janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au> wrote:

      Hi everyone,

      >you are assuming of course that a study which deals only with those things relating directly to programming will attract students and bring them back in droves.

      And this is – I believe – a big assumption!

      Let us say that there are a core of IT students at the moment who are in Year 10 and preparing to undertake VCE next year. What percentage of these student do you think look at the course outline and decide "hmmm… looks like there is not enough programming… I won't be taking that course – even though it is what I am interested in..!"

      Do you think this number is 5%? 10%, 50%! More?

      In my experience – the students that are keen on IT – and the ones that I are undertaking my Year 10 programming elective – are carrying on to enrol in SD3/4 – regardless of the course content.  Now I don't mean to imply that the course content is not important – however, I think that the students that we are wanting to attract are the ones that are not necessarily into programming!  They are the ones that have not considered undertaking an IT career. 

      Regards,

      Adrian

      BTW: My off-list email to you Andrew was in regards to your lack of identification.

      From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Timmer-Arends
      Sent: Saturday, 26 April 2008 3:08 PM 

      To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List

      Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice

      Hello Andrew

      you are assuming of course that a study which deals only with those things relating directly to programming will attract students and bring them back in droves.

      Regards

      Robert T-A

      Brighton SC

        ----- Original Message ----- 

        From: andrew barry 

        To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List 

        Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 10:23 AM

        Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice

        Hi,

        No I havent received a off-topic email.
        I think i dont' want an debate on why we should keep the status quo with IT. I  thought the idea was to encourage students to undertake further IT courses beyond of yr12, and provide with them skills so they feel they can do it?

        With declining numbers in IT courses everywhere I believe we need to argue for change , as I have said before. If we don't initiate change then someone will do it for us, as business adopt a school policy has threatened. I want a programming subject to teach and another that deals with hands on with applications eg webpages,VBA etc. Spread the other issues as components of unit 1 and 2.

        If we don't inspire kids in VCE then they dont go onto IT courses, and this seems to be our current issue(except my classes where I have re jigged things :).
        _______________________________________________ 
        http://www.edulists.com.au IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by 
        http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and 
        http://www.vitta.org.au - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc

      _______________________________________________ 
      http://www.edulists.com.au IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by 
      http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and 
      http://www.vitta.org.au - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc

      _______________________________________________ 
      http://www.edulists.com.au IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by 
      http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and 
      http://www.vitta.org.au - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc

    _______________________________________________ 
    http://www.edulists.com.au IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by 
    http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and 
    http://www.vitta.org.au - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
  _______________________________________________ 
  http://www.edulists.com.au IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by 
  http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and 
  http://www.vitta.org.au - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc 
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