[Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks
(MarkKelly)
Jack Matthews
jack_m_matthews at hotmail.com
Fri Apr 25 17:27:51 EST 2008
Hi Adrian
“The separate sections are called ‘Areas of Study’ and each
has an equal weighting on the exam.”
Yes these are good outlines for the structure of the SAC’s
but I think they are not very useful for exam preparation because of the diversity
of topics in each Area. For example - U3,
aos2 contains legal obligations, SDLC, Nassi-Shneiderman, ethical
responsibilities. I think a separate document
for the exam outlining the areas of interest to the exam could easily be
incorporated also and would be helpful for both students and teachers. For the exam document in the above scenario
you might have something like:
Diagram Interpretation and Creation (15%)
Nassi-Shneiderman --> U3, aos2
DFD --> U3, aos2
Pert Charts --> …..
Social Implications (10%)
legal
obligations -->
U3, aos2
ethical
responsibilities --> U3, aos2
Programming (30%)
Variables --> …
If
Statements --> …
Arrays
(Single Dimension) -->
…
Arrays (2
Dimensions) --> …
…
And don't forget the disclaimer!These percentages are guides only. An effort will be made to comply will this document, however, the actual percentage on the exam may differ from what is displayed in this document.
“None
of my theory classes are ‘mundane rote learning add on tasks’. “
Unfortunately
I found that much of the course (for the exam) was like this. After reading examination reports I found that
it was very important that the student used the correct words in the correct
places. A description with the same
meaning or a word with the same meaning simply would not do. But this may be more of gripe of mine being a
Mathematics teacher also where you have a right and wrong answer. Even if there is a slight degree of
interpretation in a question student will legitimately complain.
“my
year 9 and 10 courses are 100% programming courses and the students love them!”
I
think this is great (really), however, you are probably one of few with the privilege
especially with the introduction of VELS which basically made clear that they want
all IT classes integrated with other subjects. I feel that some of the reason you are so
satisfied with the course is because you have the opportunity to build the skills
of your students in these early years. This
is not reality for many teacher of IT, there simply are no junior IT classes –
especially in the smaller schools.
“The
aim of the course is develop students with a good understanding of the software
development process – and I believe the course achieves this.”
You
may be correct here. I am not sure they
will have a good understanding but an understanding nonetheless. I would still be interested in a course called
Computer Programming where the main emphasis (but not all) is on simple
application creation. Maybe this does not
fit in with the interests of the stakeholders of SD. I would be interested in anyone else that
would like to see this sort of course implemented in VCE.
Jack MatthewsFormer Teacher at Yarram Secondary College
From: janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au
To: sofdev at edulists.com.au
Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks (MarkKelly)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:23:56 +1000
Jack,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply to this thread.
Can I ask – as a courtesy – that you attach a
signature to your email? It may only be a gripe of mine – but I
like to know who I am speaking to – and this list is potentially open to
students, teachers, stakeholders and well… anyone! It is not a
judgement – merely a courtesy.
>I have been following this topic for a while and it is
similar to a complaint I posted about the course when I was teaching it (Not
teaching it anymore or in Australia but will return someday so it is still of
concern). I was teaching just before SD was introduced but having a look
at the document it seemed only slightly different from the existing course.
I presume you are teaching IT O/S? It would be interesting
to hear about your experiences in this regard – and it could help enrich
what we currently do. Yes – the course is similar to the previous
one. This was done for a number of reasons. Firstly, the course as
it stood was quite successful. Few teachers had complaints about it of
the major variety. Secondly, by retaining most of the previous structure,
it was hoped that the understanding that teachers had developed would then
carry over and allow them to teach the new course without too many
problems. In that regard, I feel that the new course has been very
successful.
>This is how I felt about the course:
STRESSFUL – It was so difficult (especially being a
new teacher) to decipher what was important for the exam and what was not.
I think any good teacher wants to give their students the best chance
during the exam and the lack of definite structure really caused huge stress
and difficulties.
The first year of any course is a stressful one for teachers as
there are no past exam papers to use as a resource. However, the areas of
study clearly outline what the course contains – and everything within
them is examinable. Granted – there are always things that need to
be clarified – and that is where communities such as this one and VITTA
give support to teachers. I am not disagreeing with you – but I do
think that the structure and content of the exam has always been well defined.
There are always things that can be done better – true!
>HOW TO FIX THIS – One way might be to separate the
course into specific topics such as ‘programming’, ‘Legal
issues’ etc. Then distribute this document outlining the percentage of
the exam allocated to each area at the beginning of the year. This would
really help teachers for class preparation and the amount of time to spend on
each topic.
Hmmm…. The separate sections are called ‘Areas of
Study’ and each has an equal weighting on the exam. I understand
what you are saying – but I think that this exists (but with more rigour).
For example, ‘Programming’ is spread across two areas of study:
Unit 3 – aos2 and Unit 4 – aos1. Now I know that you are
saying that ‘Programming’ should be under one banner – but the
reason this was done was in fact to make the course easier to understand and
implement. Each aos relates to its own SAC – so that it is easier
for teachers to see what key knowledge they need to assess internally. If
the areas of study were mixed up into the broad headings that you propose, then
similar complaints would be made by teachers in regards to the internal
assessment. For example:
U3, aos2
Software
development
While area of study 1 focuses
on the analysis and design phases of the systems development life cycle
(SDLC), the focus of this area
of study is on the development phase, in particular, the development
of the software. Students
develop knowledge, skills and understanding of the tools and techniques for
developing the software to
meet the specifications identified in the design phase of the SDLC.
Students focus on the
designing, developing and testing stages of software development. When
expressing software designs
students become familiar with methods such as flow charts, pseudocode
and Nassi-Shneiderman
diagrams, and develop a detailed understanding of one of them. The solutions
developed by the students
should be modules that meet a part of software design specifications. These
design specifications will be
provided in scenarios, which include a brief description of the organisations,
their information-processing
practices or needs and the activities of relevant personnel.
When producing solutions, students
develop knowledge and understanding of the legal obligations
and ethical responsibilities of programmers.
U4, aos1
Software
engineering
This area of study focuses on
the range of tools and techniques to produce purpose-designed software.
All stages of software
development are studied: analysis, design, development, testing, documentation,
implementation and evaluation.
Students prepare documentation intended for the end-users. Students
continue to use the
programming language studied in Unit 3.
Students respond to design
briefs, which briefly describe the organisations, including a statement of
the networked information system objectives and the needs of the
end-users.
This are the ‘programming’ areas of study. These
preambles are then broken down into key knowledge dot points which describe
precisely what is required. Now there are some references to legal issues
and there are also some references to design, etc. – but ultimately when
you are writing a course, you need to pick a focus. It is not always possible
to separate concepts from the practice without making the process
trivial. The course designers have done an excellent job of writing these
areas of study – and programming (or software development is the
focus). In starting on a programming course, how can you not first talk
about design, user interfaces, validation, algorithms and the limitations of
the system? Once the program is complete, how can you not discuss
testing, user documentation and evaluating whether the program is actually any
good?
>BORING (for me and the students)– The course
had good points and bad points but generally the lack of depth –
especially in programming – was really frustrating. By the end of
the course the students that could not already program a computer still could
not program a computer. The main reason for this was the time taken up by
these mundane rote learning add on tasks. I can remember at university
that it was only when I understood how to create simple computer programs that
I actually understood “Systems Development”. Incidentally,
this was a second year University course that covered DFDs, SDLC and other
large scale development tools. I really think this stuff can be dropped
at high school level.
I have trouble with this one. SD is my favourite class and
every topic is interesting from my perspective and that of my students.
You can do as much programming as you like really – in fact,
I give my class a lot of programming time – it’s simply a matter of
organisation. There is nothing in the study design that mandates a
certain percentage spent programming. If you are suggesting that they
should be programming 100% of the time – then that is simply not
realistic.
None of my theory classes are ‘mundane rote learning add
on tasks’.
An argument could be made for dropping some of the theory topics
– but it all comes down to rigour. A course based 100% on
programming is not suitable as a VCE level course (years 7-10 certainly! –
my year 9 and 10 courses are 100% programming courses and the students love
them! )
>The argument that “When a student enters the
workforce the languages will be different so there is no point teaching a
specific language,” does not really hold up I’m afraid.
I didn’t say this. What I said was that focussing on
learning a specific language is not really the point of what we are
doing. It is the process and the understanding of the structures that
will allow a student to transfer their skills and adapt them in the
future. I said this is response to the assertion that the course should
be focussed purely on programming.
>Animators need to know programming basics for
scripting such as particle systems, Web designers should have a very good
knowledge of programming especially with technologies such as JavaScript, ASP,
PHP etc. True, a project manager may not need these skills but this guy
is going to seriously get rolled when the programmer tells him that the email
functionality is going to take a weeks work. I think a good knowledge of
programming is useful for anyone in the computer field.
You make a good point. But programming is not for everyone
– and I didn’t list all the possible IT careers paths.
You know – it is ironic that I am having this discussion –
as many know – I am a big advocate for programming within the current
course. As a member of the course writing team for the current course –
I represented this view and in fact – we increased the amount of internal
assessment based purely on programming from the last course to this one.
However, and despite the fact that we are basically on the ‘same side’
so to speak, I will never advocate the removal of the theoretical underpinnings
of the course or the legal and ethical aspects. The aim of the course is
develop students with a good understanding of the software development process –
and I believe the course achieves this.
Cheers,
Adrian
Adrian Janson,
VITTA President
Director of ICT,
Melbourne High School,
Forrest Hill, South Yarra 3141 Australia.
Phone: 03 9826 0711 International: +61 3 9826 0711
Fax: 03 9826 8767 International: +61 3 9826 8767
E-mail: janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au
Website: http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au
Blog: http://jansona.edublogs.org
From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
[mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Jack Matthews
Sent: Friday, 25 April 2008 2:14 AM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks
(MarkKelly)
Hi
I have been following this topic for a while and it is similar to a complaint I
posted about the course when I was teaching it (Not teaching it anymore or in Australia
but will return someday so it is still of concern). I was teaching just
before SD was introduced but having a look at the document it seemed only
slightly different from the existing course.
This is how I felt about the course:
STRESSFUL – It was so difficult (especially being a
new teacher) to decipher what was important for the exam and what was not.
I think any good teacher wants to give their students the best chance
during the exam and the lack of definite structure really caused huge stress
and difficulties.
HOW TO FIX THIS – One way might be to separate the
course into specific topics such as ‘programming’, ‘Legal
issues’ etc. Then distribute this document outlining the percentage of
the exam allocated to each area at the beginning of the year. This would
really help teachers for class preparation and the amount of time to spend on
each topic.
BORING (for me and the students)– The course had
good points and bad points but generally the lack of depth – especially
in programming – was really frustrating. By the end of the course
the students that could not already program a computer still could not program
a computer. The main reason for this was the time taken up by these
mundane rote learning add on tasks. I can remember at university that it
was only when I understood how to create simple computer programs that I
actually understood “Systems Development”. Incidentally, this
was a second year University course that covered DFDs, SDLC and other large
scale development tools. I really think this stuff can be dropped at high
school level.
HOW TO FIX THIS – Preferably introduce a course called
‘Computer Programming’ where the main emphasis is programming or
alternatively cut down on the existing theory so that students can further
develop their skills and come out of the course with confidence and a feeling
they have achieved something.
I agree with Andrew that once you learn one programming
language well it is much easier to then transfer these skills to a different
one. The argument that “When a student enters the workforce the
languages will be different so there is no point teaching a specific
language,” does not really hold up I’m afraid. As long as the
student has a good grasp on one language (including syntax) they will be able
to adapt to another one – if they have no computer language skills you
can be darn sure they will not be able to pick up a new one.
“The IT industry is not made up entirely of
programmers. There are animators, web designers, systems analysts and
project managers just to name a few – none of whom necessarily have any
knowledge of programming”
Animators need to know programming basics for scripting such
as particle systems, Web designers should have a very good knowledge of
programming especially with technologies such as JavaScript, ASP, PHP etc.
True, a project manager may not need these skills but this guy is going to
seriously get rolled when the programmer tells him that the email functionality
is going to take a weeks work. I think a good knowledge of programming is
useful for anyone in the computer field.
-Jack
From: janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au
To: sofdev at edulists.com.au
Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks
(MarkKelly)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:17:48 +1000
Hi Andrew,
The social implications of the various Physics topics probably
takes up 5% of the course – which is comparable to the amount of the IT
course that it takes up. It certainly doesn’t take up 50% of the
course. However, at least 50% of the SD course is theory – and this
is where you and I differ in opinion. I would not change this percentage
– although my students would. Does this mean that I/we
‘should’ change how much theory we change – at the whim of
our students? Do our students have many years experience of the IT industry?
Do our students really understand the challenges that they will face? No
and No. In this respect – we do. I know most of my students
would rather sit around during my classes and play computer games.
Perhaps we should change the course - because this is what the students
want??? Our enrolments will go up – and they will be attaining
skills!!! But I am being sarcastic clearly….
>I
certainly dont agree. I haven't heard this argument for a while but computer
language basics never change . All you do is add on to what we know eg
OOP /c++. We also have event driven GUI programs now instead of bottom up
approach like VB.
Precisely my argument! Computer language basics never
change – so why focus so much on pure syntax???
>NO programming is a creative ability and you need time to do this. This is
my whole argument is that being creative with programming requires knowledge
you get from programming . You cant learn to make a space invaders game by
doing DFD/pert charts and legal issues , you learn by knowing basics and
building upon them. Programming is time consuming and it takes patience and
practice.
OK. We agree that programming is a creative ability.
To say that you can’t learn to program Space Invaders by doing DFDs /
Pert charts and developing an understanding or legal issues is also quite
correct. However – you are making a rather big assumption about our
clientele. They don’t all want to be programmers. The IT
industry is not made up entirely of programmers. There are animators, web
designers, systems analysts and project managers just to name a few –
none of whom necessarily have any knowledge of programming. I would
suggest that if you want to develop programming skills amongst your clientele
– you do it at Years 7-10 – design / write a course that will
attract students to undertake the subject and meet their needs.
VCE is the pointy end of the secondary school experience and we
have a responsibility to give our students a well rounded experience that will
allow them to undertake further study (or not). I must confess that I
cannot get my head around the notion that you think the legal and ethical
components of the course are irrelevant. What does the average 17 year
old understand about the law? In fact, the typical IT student has already
accepted a number of illegal practices and regards them as being
‘OK’. How as educators can we ignore this?
Andrew, take my comments in the spirit in which they were
intended – debate of all sorts is healthy!
BTW: Did you receive my email off-list? A reply as
soon as possible would be appreciated.
Cheers,
Adrian
Adrian Janson,
VITTA President
Director of ICT,
Melbourne High School,
Forrest Hill, South Yarra 3141 Australia.
Phone: 03 9826 0711 International: +61 3 9826 0711
Fax: 03 9826 8767 International: +61 3 9826 8767
E-mail: janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au
Website: http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au
Blog: http://jansona.edublogs.org
From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
[mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of andrew barry
Sent: Thursday, 24 April 2008 9:19 PM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks
(MarkKelly)
As a teacher of physics
– I have to say that the implications of the uses of nuclear energy is
actually part of the course – and is a very important part of the
course! Otherwise we are delivering content and not 'teaching'. In
effect, I feel that teaching without this reflection creates students (- in
fact, young people) without the skills to critically evaluate a topic. In
the nuclear physics topic, I teach students the basics of building a nuclear
bomb. Is this even ethical on it's own and in isolation?
does it make up 50% of the physics course? there is nothing wrong with this but
IT has much time devoted to theory when they could be learning skills. So are
you saying we should spend less time developing skills because we need to know
theory?
>Here is where your argument is flawed – especially in
a subject like IT. The skills that you are teaching are really a focus on
process. The software and programming languages will have evolved by the
time that your students enter the workforce – and they will then be
relying upon the processes behind the creation of the software. If you
have focused purely on skills – your students will not have the creative
ability (and programming IS a creative process and not a mechanical one).
I certainly dont agree. I haven't heard this
argument for a while but computer language basics never change . All you
do is add on to what we know eg OOP /c++. We also have event driven GUI
programs now instead of bottom up approach like VB.
NO programming is a creative ability and you need time to do this. This is my
whole argument is that being creative with programming requires knowledge you
get from programming . You cant learn to make a space invaders game by doing
DFD/pert charts and legal issues , you learn by knowing basics and
building upon them. Programming is time consuming and it takes patience and practice.
Being creative is my goal and only programming skills can help. Design
theory comes in use here of course.
On
Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Adrian Janson <janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au>
wrote:
Hi Andrew,
The numbers of students taking IT subjects needs to increase as
we have a demand for IT professionals in this country. Students are not
undertaking IT courses for a variety of reasons – but I don't think that
one of them is the course content – as students do not know much about
this until they start the actual course.
>Students
can be aware of such issues in earlier years but not VCE. If I do physics
do i do a SAC on the social implications of devising nuclear energy? or
how splitting the atom cuses more harm than good or in yr12 biology to we
write essays on global warming?
As a teacher of physics – I have to say that the
implications of the uses of nuclear energy is actually part of the course
– and is a very important part of the course! Otherwise we are
delivering content and not 'teaching'. In effect, I feel that teaching
without this reflection creates students (- in fact, young people) without the
skills to critically evaluate a topic. In the nuclear physics topic, I
teach students the basics of building a nuclear bomb. Is this even
ethical on it's own and in isolation?
>This
type of thinking with IT is harming it because students are confused
about what we think IT is. I used to teach at Tafe and Uni IT and It was mostly
hands on or if it was theory they just did a theory subject. You don't get
employed with weak skills and it is skills i want to teach and not social
issues in VCE IT. That is just my opinion and maybe others agree or disagree.
Here is where your argument is flawed – especially in a
subject like IT. The skills that you are teaching are really a focus on
process. The software and programming languages will have evolved by the
time that your students enter the workforce – and they will then be relying
upon the processes behind the creation of the software. If you have
focused purely on skills – your students will not have the creative
ability (and programming IS a creative process and not a mechanical one).
In regards to the social issues of IT (and I take it you didn't
catch the excellent – but highly disturbing report on 60 minutes two
weeks ago?) – I feel it would socially irresponsible of us as educational
leaders and the ones towards which our students look for guidance – to
simply ignore social issues in this day and age.
Cheers,
Adrian
Adrian Janson,
VITTA President
Director of ICT,
Melbourne High School,
Forrest Hill, South Yarra 3141 Australia.
Phone: 03 9826 0711 International: +61 3 9826 0711
Fax: 03 9826 8767 International: +61 3 9826 8767
E-mail: janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au
Website: http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au
Blog: http://jansona.edublogs.org
From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
[mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
On Behalf Of andrew barry
Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2008 7:58 PM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks
(MarkKelly)
Hi Adrian,
Well I can see forced change on the horizon by outside factors.
You shouldn't try to devise a plan to just bulk up numbers but the numbers need
to increase. IF people are voting with their feet and then we need to listen.
>In maths you teach maths and in english you teach english. What maths sac
asks you to explain a legal consideration for the calculations or asks to list
any business considerations and document elaborate plans to reach an answer?
>Here
is where I must strongly disagree with the stance that I (think) you are
making. Our
students need to be aware of the legal issues and considerations involved in
this subject. Watch the news almost any night of the week for evidence of
this. If our SD students are to be the ICT leaders of tomorrow –
then they need to be properly equipped in this regard.
Students
can be aware of such issues in earlier years but not VCE. If I do physics
do i do a SAC on the social implications of devising nuclear energy? or
how splitting the atom cuses more harm than good or in yr12 biology to we
write essays on global warming?
This
type of thinking with IT is harming it because students are confused
about what we think IT is. I used to teach at Tafe and Uni IT and It was mostly
hands on or if it was theory they just did a theory subject. You don't get
employed with weak skills and it is skills i want to teach and not social
issues in VCE IT. That is just my opinion and maybe others agree or disagree.
On
Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Adrian Janson <janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au>
wrote:
Hi Andrew,
>The issue here
is how to improve SD enrollment and relevance. The government is itching for
change and even the adopt a schools policy sees IT as a major area .
Agreed
– however, I am not prepared to concede to a plan in which we design
curriculum merely to bulk up our numbers.
>Who is going to decide what we teach? business!
Business
is a driver certainly – but the 'tail does not wag the dog'. How
does business know what it needs? Are the needs of business driven by the
'now' rather the 'future'?
>In maths you teach maths and in english you teach english. What maths sac
asks you to explain a legal consideration for the calculations or asks to list
any business considerations and document elaborate plans to reach an answer?
Here
is where I must strongly disagree with the stance that I (think) you are
making. Our students need to be aware of the legal issues and
considerations involved in this subject. Watch the news almost any night
of the week for evidence of this. If our SD students are to be the ICT
leaders of tomorrow – then they need to be properly equipped in this
regard.
>IT subjects should just teach programming and some design
theory.
There
is a lot more than programming in IT *(did I just say that!!??!). The SD
course has a good balance between programming and design elements – and I
personally feel that that balance should be maintained.
Cheers,
Adrian
Adrian Janson,
VITTA President
Director of ICT,
Melbourne High School,
Forrest Hill, South Yarra 3141 Australia.
Phone: 03 9826 0711 International: +61 3 9826 0711
Fax: 03 9826 8767 International: +61 3 9826 8767
E-mail: janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au
Website: http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au
Blog: http://jansona.edublogs.org
From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
[mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
On Behalf Of andrew barry
Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2008 5:25 PM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks
(MarkKelly)
The issue here is
how to improve SD enrollment and relevance. The government is itching for
change and even the adopt a schools policy sees IT as a major area .
Who is going to decide what we teach? business!
In maths you teach maths and in english you teach english. What maths sac asks
you to explain a legal consideration for the calculations or asks to list any
business considerations and document elaborate plans to reach an answer?
Maths teaches maths and IT should teach IT and not IT/business models. Does a
maths sac ask for any historical q's about where the formulas come from? Is
maths well rounded ?
IT subjects should just teach programming and some design theory.
On
Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:42 PM, Adrian Janson <janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au>
wrote:
Hi
everyone,
"Teachers are NOT curriculum materials developers."
I
have to say that this statement goes against everything that I believe. I
have designed the Year 9 and Year 10 courses that I teach for IT - and I
revise and update them each year so that they are well suited to the cohort
that I teach. Who best understands the needs of our students? We
each
do... and when it comes to VCE - each one of us is passionate about what
content is best suited to the future prospects of our VCE students and the
discipline of ICT as a whole. I for one and passionate about ICT and have
very definite views about what core skills ICT students need moving forward
- into a career path or their lives.
My 2c
Cheers,
Adrian
-----Original Message-----
From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
[mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
On
Behalf Of Timmer-Arends
Sent: Tuesday, 22 April 2008 6:25 PM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
Subject:
Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks
(MarkKelly)
>> Teachers are NOT curriculum materials developers.
Stephen, I can't agree with this statement either, simply because I believe
that is one of the crafts of being a teacher; ie being able to develop
material which will help convey concepts and skills to students (and that
might include dipping into whatever resources are available out there)
I had thought from earlier posts on this topic that you originally meant
that teachers should not be developing 'content'; ie deciding what skills
and knowledge students should have by the end of a year. And I have some
sympathy for this view - but maybe it's not what you meant in the first
place???
Anyway, I have come to the view that SDs need to be far more explicit and
specific about what knowledge/skills students should have by the end of Year
12. It is the final year of secondary enducation and I cannot see any other
way of guaranteeing any sort of standard. Providing flexibility in a course
so that teachers can meet the needs of their students is one thing (and
important), but allowing teachers to decide the depth themselves is
problematic, and I suspect leads to the exam becoming the standard setter,
and I don't know that that is a good thing.
Regards
Robert T-A
Brighton SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Kelly" <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
<sofdev at edulists.com.au>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks
(MarkKelly)
>
> Stephen Digby wrote:
>> Here here !!!
>> I say again.....
>>
>
> Oooh - I think we are. But we often rely on textbook writers to save
us
> doing it ourselves. We still have to choose which materials we use.
>
>> It is the curriculum design authorities responsibility to provide
>> classroom teaching materials to teachers (preferably with a range of
>> options !).
>
> Is it? This would come as a surprise to most curriculum design
> authorities - except the ones in China, perhaps. If they DID provide
> anything more than sample teaching materials, I would be deeply worried
> about government interference.
>
>> It is teachers responsibility to understand the content and their
>> students so that they can use these materials to plan, prep, teach,
>> correct, and communicate
>> Inevitably teachers will tweak for their own class and discover
>> possibilities, alternatives, improvements.
>> The second responsibility of the curriculum design authority should be
to
>> systematically collect and utilise this field testing to improve the
>> curriculum design.
>> Two examples to show how simple these processes are:
>> - give the curriculum design to all publishers and ask for draft
>> responses in terms of classroom material support. Choose a single
>> publisher as the recommended support material for a definite period
e.g
>> 3 years so that they have the chance to profit from their recommended
>> status.
>
> I can already hear the screaming about this one. One vital feature of
> education is the freedom to use a variety of suitable resources at the
> discretion of the student and teacher.
> Choosing a "preferred" publisher would cause sales of other
'unapproved'
> texts to evaporate, and considering the already-precarious IT textbook
> sales figures most other publishers would not bother releasing a text at
> all.
>
> This would, in effect, result in a single textbook and stifle the richness
> of available opinion and pedagogical style. Publishers would be in
> revolt - quite justifiably.
>
> And how will the 'approved' text be chosen? Do you expect VCAA to
choose
> a publisher on the basis of a proposal and a sample chapter from
> publishers? For that would be the only way it could work: VCAA would
have
> no finished textbook to base its judgement on because NO publisher is
> going to pay authors to create a full text and submit it in the hope of
> being picked. It just would not happen!
>
> And if the preferred text was later found to be flawed in some way, the
> VCAA would be partially culpable. I don't think they want such
problems
> being beaten to death on the nightly current affairs shows.
>
> The only 'DEECD preferred' suppliers are, and should remain to be, related
> to the supply of software, hardware and leasing services. They must
not
> extend to educational resources. If the VCAA started down this path they
> would be in a world of trouble. I think this is why they are so
chary
> about recommending any resources apart from their own - the exception
> being the last 2 pages of the study design.
>
>
>> Of course, a recommendation is not a compulsion, and schools may
choose
>> not to use the recommended resources. The likelihood that they
be chosen
>> again will of course depend on the ongoing feedback re. the quality of
>> their resources and their continued support through the 3 years.
>> - require all teachers in all govt schools to provide copies of their
sac
>> tasks with a sample answer from the teacher. (No cost. No
copyright as
>> the work is owned by the government). Select the best 50 and
publish on
>> line (No Cost) as exemplars to assist teachers in Year 2.
>
> I bet VCAA is quite busy enough assessing the few tasks they call for
> during subject auditing. If every SAC had to be independently
judged, the
> VCAA would either collapse under the weight, or grow to rival the size of
> the public service sector of Bulgaria. :-)
>> etc etc etc
>
> But thanks for the interesting post, Stephen. I'm sure it will
stimulate
> discussion.
>> ====================================================
>> Stephen Digby, Learning Technology Manager
>> mailto: digby.stephen.p at edumail.vic.gov.au
>> <mailto:digby.stephen.p at edumail.vic.gov.au>
Cheltenham Secondary College
>> www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au
<http://www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au/>
>> Ph: 613 955 55 955 Fx: 9555 8617 Mb: 0431-701-028
>> ====================================================
>> The other day somebody stole everything in my apartment and replaced
it
>> with an exact replica... When my roommate came home I said,
"Roommate,
>> someone stole everything in our apartment and replaced it with an
exact
>> replica." He looked at me and said, "Do I know you?"
Steven Wright
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
*On Behalf Of *Russell Quinn
>> *Sent:* Monday, 21 April 2008 10:33 AM
>> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>> *Subject:* [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice -
tertiary
>> links (MarkKelly)
>>
>> Hi again,
>> I am
really sorry to be so negative all of the time but
>> I find
>> this an appalling situation and I cannot stay silent.
>> What I have been constantly hearing through the
mail
>> is that we have SD teachers who don't know
>> what to teach and don't know why they are teaching it.
>> Rest assured, it is not the teaching staff I hold to
account.
>> Consider all of the wasted time, sleep and worry
by teaching
>> staff who should be devoting their time and energy into
how to
>> teach it, preparing great materials and assessing the
students work.
>> Instead we have people running around in circles trying
to work
>> out what to do.
>> No wonder people are not keen to write their own
SAC's.
>> Apparently the VCAA is quite happy with the status quo.
I look
>> forward to making a positive contribution soon.
>> Russell Quinn
>> Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au
<mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>> *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 10:06 PM
>> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
>>
>> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
visit
>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body
'help' to
>> sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> sofdev-owner at edulists.com.au
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is
more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary
links (Mark Kelly)
>> 2. RE: Re: Industry practice - tertiary
links (Meadows, Roslyn M)
>>
>>
>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:40:09 +1000
>> From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice -
tertiary links
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing
List"
>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> Message-ID: <48088899.8050808 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed
>>
>> Maybe the first thing to do is to decide what VCE SD is
for.
>>
>> What is it meant to achieve?
>>
>> Is it meant to be a preparation for tertiary study?
>> Is it meant to be a skills-based preparation for work?
>> Is it meant to be a fun 12 months until uni begins?
>> Is it meant to give hope to kids who are unqualified for
any other
>> VCE
>> subject?
>>
>> I'm sure the VCAA has a good answer to this. It would be
interesting
>> to
>> hear it. Then, maybe, we can start re-defining SD - and
ITA.
>>
>> That's assuming VCE IT NEEDS to be redefined...
>>
>> Which is maybe a good place for the review of the VCE IT
Study Design
>> to
>> begin...
>>
>> And when it does, Paula, I hope it's virtual rather than
with
>> meetings
>> in the city. I'd much rather sit at home with a
glass of Cab Sav and
>> take time to ponder the intricacies of an argument, do
research, and
>> fast-forward through the boring people - rather than
commute to the
>> big
>> smoke and sit with a dozen passionate people all
determined to get a
>> word in edgewise within an hour so no-one's argument can
get fully
>> thought-out, crafted and developed in its entirety.
>>
>> Oooh! Saint Kilda's winning. Must go...
>>
>> Russell Quinn wrote:
>> > The first thing would be inclined to do is
throw out all of the
>> > networking -
>> > which is totally irrelevant to software development
(except to a
>> small and
>> > select few specialists) and replace it with actual
software
>> development.
>> >
>> > I also think the obsession with the business models
should be
>> downplayed,
>> > and the scenario's broadened to something far more
interesting.
>> After
>> > all, business
>> > is just one of the reasons for writing software,
and not a very
>> > interesting one at that.
>> >
>> > It appears that students are voting with their
feet, and I can see
>> their
>> > point.
>> > The only way to plug the leak is to make the
courses software based
>> and
>> > interesting.
>> >
>> > Russell Quinn
>> >
>> > Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au
<mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>> >
>> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>> > *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 12:00 PM
>> > *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>> > *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>> >
>> > Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
>> > sofdev at edulists.com.au
>> >
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
visit
>> > http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body
'help' to
>> > sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>> >
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> > sofdev-owner at edulists.com.au
>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it
is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> > 1. Re: Industry practice - tertiary
links (Steven Bird)
>> > 2. RE: Industry practice - tertiary
links (Selina Dennis)
>> > 3. Re: Industry practice - tertiary
links (Mark Kelly)
>> >
>> >
>> >
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:00:37 +1000
>> > From: "Steven Bird" <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice -
tertiary links
>> > To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers'
Mailing List"
>> > <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> > Message-ID:
>> > <97e4e62e0804171400q6bf98a9fq3acd059906fe980 at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends
>> <timmer at melbpc.org.au>
wrote:
>> >> I have to say that this discussion is heading
to Comp Sci circa
>> 1990 (which
>> >> is not necessarily a bad thing)
>> >
>> > Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT
subject. The theory
>> on
>> > which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older
still, but no-one
>> > considers that dated.
>> >
>> >> but it seems to me that a couple of
>> >> questions need to be answered first:
>> >> 1. what do we want students to get out of
a technically-oriented
>> Y12 IT course?
>> >> 2. is the course primarily intended to
prepare students for
>> teritary, work, or both?
>> >
>> > Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is
foundational study,
>> > preparing students for whatever they choose to do
in future, even
>> if
>> > it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>> >
>> > For the students continuing from VCE Software
Development to a
>> degree
>> > in Software Engineering, we would prefer students
to have a solid
>> > grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the
associated
>> > programming skills. (The SDLC follows
naturally once they're ready
>> to
>> > scale up.)
>> >
>> > -Steven
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 2
>> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:09:16 +1000
>> > From: "Selina Dennis" <selina at dennis.net.au>
>> > Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice -
tertiary links
>> > To: "'Year 12 Software Development Teachers'
Mailing List'"
>> > <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> > Message-ID:
<003801c8a0d7$aed8dd80$0c8a9880$@net.au>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
>> >
>> > I am both a Year 12 Software Development teacher
and a Computer
>> Science
>> > graduate - I completed my CS degree late in life,
circa 2005 - and
>> as
>> > someone who has worked in the IT industry since
1996, I must say
>> that I
>> > concur with Steven Bird's view that there is a
chasm between
>> secondary
>> > school teaching of IT and tertiary teaching of IT.
For students in
>> Year 12,
>> > the key components of software development that
they will "get the
>> most out
>> > of", is the theory behind algorithms, problem
solving, and also the
>> > development of their basic thinking skills. I've
been teaching
>> PHP/mySQL to
>> > my students this year and while most have come into
the course
>> having
>> > completed Year 10 and 11 IT, they still did not
have a basic
>> understanding
>> > of fundamental programming concepts at the start of
the year.
>> >
>> > Perhaps this is more of a "theological"
discussion on how to teach
>> > programming to teenagers, but it's also relevant to
note that much
>> of the
>> > theory that is being taught in Year 12 is rarely
used or developed
>> in either
>> > tertiary study or in industry. One such example is
diagrams - N-S
>> Diagrams,
>> > DFDs, etc have long been superseded by UML, both at
a university
>> level and
>> > in industry - as an aside, I had never heard of NS
diagrams until I
>> had to
>> > teach it in IPM, and I had worked with ISO-9000
compliant
>> corporations
>> > developing major software products.
>> >
>> > Similarly, the SDLC, as Steven has raised, is most
useful for
>> large-scale
>> > projects. Students will rarely experience the
benefit, nor the
>> relevance, of
>> > the SDLC, in a secondary school curriculum. More
useful theory
>> would be a
>> > more focused look at iterative design, extreme
programming (or any
>> other
>> > kind of agile software development), etc, and move
away from the
>> excessive
>> > documentation requirements that the SDLC brings to
the table.
>> >
>> > As a teacher, I would prefer to bring in key
aspects of the SDLC
>> without
>> > having to formally teach every part of it. For
example, a
>> concentration on
>> > testing and debugging of software - this is a
twofold benefit, as
>> it teaches
>> > students to be aware of how they choose to
implement functionality,
>> and also
>> > develops their analytical and observational skills
when they are
>> debugging
>> > an error. Bringing in Use Case Diagrams instead of
DFDs would be
>> fantastic,
>> > also, as it conceptually allows a student to think
through what
>> they are
>> > providing in their system before they develop it.
>> >
>> > In general, however, I have to say I am currently
much happier with
>> the core
>> > content of the Software Development course than I
was with the IT:
>> > Applications course, but I still believe that it
is, at its core,
>> dated and
>> > at times irrelevant. In a perfect world, we would
be teaching our
>> students
>> > "good practice" programming while also
preparing them for a future
>> path in
>> > IT if they so choose - both at the tertiary level
and in industry.
>> >
>> > </soapbox>
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Selina Dennis
>> > Strathmore Secondary College
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
>> > On Behalf Of Steven Bird
>> > Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:01 AM
>> > To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing
List
>> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice -
tertiary links
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends
>> <timmer at melbpc.org.au>
wrote:
>> >> I have to say that this discussion is heading
to Comp Sci circa
>> 1990
>> > (which
>> >> is not necessarily a bad thing)
>> >
>> > Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT
subject. The theory
>> on
>> > which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older
still, but no-one
>> > considers that dated.
>> >
>> >> but it seems to me that a couple of
>> >> questions need to be answered first:
>> >> 1. what do we want students to get out of
a technically-oriented
>> Y12 IT
>> > course?
>> >> 2. is the course primarily intended to
prepare students for
>> teritary,
>> > work, or both?
>> >
>> > Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is
foundational study,
>> > preparing students for whatever they choose to do
in future, even
>> if
>> > it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>> >
>> > For the students continuing from VCE Software
Development to a
>> degree
>> > in Software Engineering, we would prefer students
to have a solid
>> > grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the
associated
>> > programming skills. (The SDLC follows
naturally once they're ready
>> to
>> > scale up.)
>> >
>> > -Steven
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > http://www.edulists.com.au
>> > IT Software Development Mailing List kindly
supported by
>> > http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au
- Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>> Authority
>> > and
>> >
>> ttp://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
-
>> VITTA
>> > Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association
Inc
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 3
>> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:20:04 +1000
>> > From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice -
tertiary links
>> > To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers'
Mailing List"
>> > <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> > Message-ID: <4807CD14.8060002 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed
>> >
>> > Yes - and we have to position VCE against VET,
which is the more
>> > practical, work-oriented stream.
>> >
>> > Frankly, I can't see SD being directly useful in
providing students
>> with
>> > workplace skills. It's simply not deep enough
in programming
>> skills -
>> > and it could never be in the time available.
And by the time the
>> kids
>> > took the tram from school to their first job, the
entire IT
>> industry
>> > would have had three technological revolutions in
the meantime, so
>> any
>> > language they learned would have been superseded.
>> >
>> > I see SD as giving students a taste of the mindset
of software
>> > development, to be developed later at uni or TAFE.
>> >
>> > 2.2c worth, and falling against the Yen.
>> >
>> > Timmer-Arends wrote:
>> >> I have to say that this discussion is heading
to Comp Sci circa
>> 1990 (which
>> >> is not necessarily a bad thing) but it seems to
me that a couple
>> of
>> >> questions need to be answered first:
>> >> 1. what do we want students to get out of a
technically-oriented
>> Y12 IT
>> >> course?
>> >> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare
students for
>> teritary,
>> >> work, or both?
>> >>
>> >> Regards
>> >> Robert T-A
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven
Bird"
>> <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>> >> To: "Year 12 Software Development
Teachers' Mailing List"
>> >> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> >> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:41 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice
- tertiary links
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> [Adrian -- thanks for picking a more
appropriate subject line now
>> that
>> >>> discussion has moved away from data flow
diagrams.]
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:28 PM, andrew
barry
>> <jagguy999 at gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>> I prefer to just teach an IT subject
which is just programming
>> and some
>> >>>> programming design eg psuedo code.
>> >>>
>> >>> I agree. Students should learn how to
walk before learning how
>> to
>> >>> run, i.e. they should be competent with
"programming
>> in-the-small"
>> >>> before they spend much time on
"programming in-the-large" (incl
>> SDLC).
>> >>>
>> >>>> Including so much theory doesn't get
any student excited about
>> learning
>> >>>> IT
>> >>>> at Uni. After all we are trying to
promote IT beyond yr12 are we
>> not?
>> >>>> Are
>> >>>> we
>> >>>> not trying to get more people to do it?
>> >>>
>> >>> I agree with Adrian that rigour is
important, and this cuts
>> across
>> >>> analysis, design, implementation,
documentation, etc. The SDLC
>> is one
>> >>> source of theory but I question its
suitability at this level.
>> It's
>> >>> intended for software engineering projects
where you have to
>> manage
>> >>> whole teams of developers, client
relationships, project
>> deliverables,
>> >>> etc. When students aren't already
experienced at small-scale
>> >>> programming the emphasis often falls on a
rather heavy document
>> >>> process, which has to be one of the least
exciting aspects of
>> software
>> >>> development.
>> >>>
>> >>> Another issue I have with the emphasis on
SDLC as a major source
>> of
>> >>> theoretical content is that it focusses too
much on the software
>> >>> development process. Of course that's
entirely appropriate given
>> the
>> >>> title of the subject, but there's some
other areas of computing
>> theory
>> >>> that would be useful and accessible at this
level, including
>> >>> algorithmic problem solving and the limits
of computing. Here's
>> a
>> >>> couple of introductory books that cover
these topics in a
>> >>> non-mathematical yet rigorous and
intellectually stimulating way:
>> >>>
>> >>> Algorithmics: The Spirit of Computing (3rd
Ed, David Harel,
>> Addison
>> >>> Wesley, 2004)
>> >>>
>> >>> Computers Ltd: What They Really Can't Do
(David Harel, Oxford
>> >>> University Press, 2000)
>> >>>
>> >>> -Steven Bird
>> >>> http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/
>> >>>
_______________________________________________
>> >>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>> >>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly
supported by
>> >>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and
Assessment
>> >>> Authority
>> >>> and
>> >>>
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
-
>> >>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology
Teachers Association Inc
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Mark Kelly
>> > Manager - Information Systems
>> > McKinnon Secondary College
>> > McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>> > Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
>> > School Phone +613 8520 9000
>> > School Fax +613 95789253
>> > kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>> >
>> > Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>> > IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
>> > Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>> >
>> > A conclusion is the place where you got sick of
thinking.
>> > If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > sofdev mailing list
>> > sofdev at edulists.com.au
>> > http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>> >
>> >
>> > End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>> > **************************************
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > http://www.edulists.com.au
<http://www.edulists.com.au>
IT Software
>> > Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>> > http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>> > <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>> > -
>> > Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>> > http://www.vitta.org.au
<http://www.vitta.org.au>
- VITTA Victorian
>> > Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>> >
>> >
>> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > Checked by AVG.
>> > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1375 -
Release Date:
>> 12/04/2008 11:32 AM
>>
>> --
>> Mark Kelly
>> Manager - Information Systems
>> McKinnon Secondary College
>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>>
>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>
>> Only those who swim against the current know the current
is there.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:04:52 +1000
>> From: "Meadows, Roslyn M" <Meadows.Roslyn.M at edumail.vic.gov.au>
>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice -
tertiary links
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing
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delete all copies. Before opening or using attachments check them for viruses
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IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
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