[Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice
- tertiarylinks (MarkKelly)
Adrian Janson
janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au
Tue Apr 22 23:42:07 EST 2008
Hi everyone,
"Teachers are NOT curriculum materials developers."
I have to say that this statement goes against everything that I believe. I
have designed the Year 9 and Year 10 courses that I teach for IT - and I
revise and update them each year so that they are well suited to the cohort
that I teach. Who best understands the needs of our students? We each
do... and when it comes to VCE - each one of us is passionate about what
content is best suited to the future prospects of our VCE students and the
discipline of ICT as a whole. I for one and passionate about ICT and have
very definite views about what core skills ICT students need moving forward
- into a career path or their lives.
My 2c
Cheers,
Adrian
-----Original Message-----
From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
On Behalf Of Timmer-Arends
Sent: Tuesday, 22 April 2008 6:25 PM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks
(MarkKelly)
>> Teachers are NOT curriculum materials developers.
Stephen, I can't agree with this statement either, simply because I believe
that is one of the crafts of being a teacher; ie being able to develop
material which will help convey concepts and skills to students (and that
might include dipping into whatever resources are available out there)
I had thought from earlier posts on this topic that you originally meant
that teachers should not be developing 'content'; ie deciding what skills
and knowledge students should have by the end of a year. And I have some
sympathy for this view - but maybe it's not what you meant in the first
place???
Anyway, I have come to the view that SDs need to be far more explicit and
specific about what knowledge/skills students should have by the end of Year
12. It is the final year of secondary enducation and I cannot see any other
way of guaranteeing any sort of standard. Providing flexibility in a course
so that teachers can meet the needs of their students is one thing (and
important), but allowing teachers to decide the depth themselves is
problematic, and I suspect leads to the exam becoming the standard setter,
and I don't know that that is a good thing.
Regards
Robert T-A
Brighton SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Kelly" <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
<sofdev at edulists.com.au>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks
(MarkKelly)
>
> Stephen Digby wrote:
>> Here here !!!
>> I say again.....
>>
>
> Oooh - I think we are. But we often rely on textbook writers to save us
> doing it ourselves. We still have to choose which materials we use.
>
>> It is the curriculum design authorities responsibility to provide
>> classroom teaching materials to teachers (preferably with a range of
>> options !).
>
> Is it? This would come as a surprise to most curriculum design
> authorities - except the ones in China, perhaps. If they DID provide
> anything more than sample teaching materials, I would be deeply worried
> about government interference.
>
>> It is teachers responsibility to understand the content and their
>> students so that they can use these materials to plan, prep, teach,
>> correct, and communicate
>> Inevitably teachers will tweak for their own class and discover
>> possibilities, alternatives, improvements.
>> The second responsibility of the curriculum design authority should be to
>> systematically collect and utilise this field testing to improve the
>> curriculum design.
>> Two examples to show how simple these processes are:
>> - give the curriculum design to all publishers and ask for draft
>> responses in terms of classroom material support. Choose a single
>> publisher as the recommended support material for a definite period e.g
>> 3 years so that they have the chance to profit from their recommended
>> status.
>
> I can already hear the screaming about this one. One vital feature of
> education is the freedom to use a variety of suitable resources at the
> discretion of the student and teacher.
> Choosing a "preferred" publisher would cause sales of other 'unapproved'
> texts to evaporate, and considering the already-precarious IT textbook
> sales figures most other publishers would not bother releasing a text at
> all.
>
> This would, in effect, result in a single textbook and stifle the richness
> of available opinion and pedagogical style. Publishers would be in
> revolt - quite justifiably.
>
> And how will the 'approved' text be chosen? Do you expect VCAA to choose
> a publisher on the basis of a proposal and a sample chapter from
> publishers? For that would be the only way it could work: VCAA would have
> no finished textbook to base its judgement on because NO publisher is
> going to pay authors to create a full text and submit it in the hope of
> being picked. It just would not happen!
>
> And if the preferred text was later found to be flawed in some way, the
> VCAA would be partially culpable. I don't think they want such problems
> being beaten to death on the nightly current affairs shows.
>
> The only 'DEECD preferred' suppliers are, and should remain to be, related
> to the supply of software, hardware and leasing services. They must not
> extend to educational resources. If the VCAA started down this path they
> would be in a world of trouble. I think this is why they are so chary
> about recommending any resources apart from their own - the exception
> being the last 2 pages of the study design.
>
>
>> Of course, a recommendation is not a compulsion, and schools may choose
>> not to use the recommended resources. The likelihood that they be chosen
>> again will of course depend on the ongoing feedback re. the quality of
>> their resources and their continued support through the 3 years.
>> - require all teachers in all govt schools to provide copies of their sac
>> tasks with a sample answer from the teacher. (No cost. No copyright as
>> the work is owned by the government). Select the best 50 and publish on
>> line (No Cost) as exemplars to assist teachers in Year 2.
>
> I bet VCAA is quite busy enough assessing the few tasks they call for
> during subject auditing. If every SAC had to be independently judged, the
> VCAA would either collapse under the weight, or grow to rival the size of
> the public service sector of Bulgaria. :-)
>> etc etc etc
>
> But thanks for the interesting post, Stephen. I'm sure it will stimulate
> discussion.
>> ====================================================
>> Stephen Digby, Learning Technology Manager
>> mailto: digby.stephen.p at edumail.vic.gov.au
>> <mailto:digby.stephen.p at edumail.vic.gov.au> Cheltenham Secondary College
>> www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au <http://www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au/>
>> Ph: 613 955 55 955 Fx: 9555 8617 Mb: 0431-701-028
>> ====================================================
>> The other day somebody stole everything in my apartment and replaced it
>> with an exact replica... When my roommate came home I said, "Roommate,
>> someone stole everything in our apartment and replaced it with an exact
>> replica." He looked at me and said, "Do I know you?" Steven Wright
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Russell Quinn
>> *Sent:* Monday, 21 April 2008 10:33 AM
>> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>> *Subject:* [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary
>> links (MarkKelly)
>>
>> Hi again,
>> I am really sorry to be so negative all of the time but
>> I find
>> this an appalling situation and I cannot stay silent.
>> What I have been constantly hearing through the mail
>> is that we have SD teachers who don't know
>> what to teach and don't know why they are teaching it.
>> Rest assured, it is not the teaching staff I hold to account.
>> Consider all of the wasted time, sleep and worry by teaching
>> staff who should be devoting their time and energy into how to
>> teach it, preparing great materials and assessing the students work.
>> Instead we have people running around in circles trying to work
>> out what to do.
>> No wonder people are not keen to write their own SAC's.
>> Apparently the VCAA is quite happy with the status quo. I look
>> forward to making a positive contribution soon.
>> Russell Quinn
>> Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>> *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 10:06 PM
>> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
>>
>> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
>> 2. RE: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Meadows, Roslyn M)
>>
>>
>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:40:09 +1000
>> From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> Message-ID: <48088899.8050808 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Maybe the first thing to do is to decide what VCE SD is for.
>>
>> What is it meant to achieve?
>>
>> Is it meant to be a preparation for tertiary study?
>> Is it meant to be a skills-based preparation for work?
>> Is it meant to be a fun 12 months until uni begins?
>> Is it meant to give hope to kids who are unqualified for any other
>> VCE
>> subject?
>>
>> I'm sure the VCAA has a good answer to this. It would be interesting
>> to
>> hear it. Then, maybe, we can start re-defining SD - and ITA.
>>
>> That's assuming VCE IT NEEDS to be redefined...
>>
>> Which is maybe a good place for the review of the VCE IT Study Design
>> to
>> begin...
>>
>> And when it does, Paula, I hope it's virtual rather than with
>> meetings
>> in the city. I'd much rather sit at home with a glass of Cab Sav and
>> take time to ponder the intricacies of an argument, do research, and
>> fast-forward through the boring people - rather than commute to the
>> big
>> smoke and sit with a dozen passionate people all determined to get a
>> word in edgewise within an hour so no-one's argument can get fully
>> thought-out, crafted and developed in its entirety.
>>
>> Oooh! Saint Kilda's winning. Must go...
>>
>> Russell Quinn wrote:
>> > The first thing would be inclined to do is throw out all of the
>> > networking -
>> > which is totally irrelevant to software development (except to a
>> small and
>> > select few specialists) and replace it with actual software
>> development.
>> >
>> > I also think the obsession with the business models should be
>> downplayed,
>> > and the scenario's broadened to something far more interesting.
>> After
>> > all, business
>> > is just one of the reasons for writing software, and not a very
>> > interesting one at that.
>> >
>> > It appears that students are voting with their feet, and I can see
>> their
>> > point.
>> > The only way to plug the leak is to make the courses software based
>> and
>> > interesting.
>> >
>> > Russell Quinn
>> >
>> > Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>> >
>> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>> > *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 12:00 PM
>> > *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>> > *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>> >
>> > Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
>> > sofdev at edulists.com.au
>> >
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> > http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> > sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>> >
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> > sofdev-owner at edulists.com.au
>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> > 1. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Steven Bird)
>> > 2. RE: Industry practice - tertiary links (Selina Dennis)
>> > 3. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
>> >
>> >
>> >
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:00:37 +1000
>> > From: "Steven Bird" <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>> > To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>> > <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> > Message-ID:
>> > <97e4e62e0804171400q6bf98a9fq3acd059906fe980 at mail.gmail.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends
>> <timmer at melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>> >> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa
>> 1990 (which
>> >> is not necessarily a bad thing)
>> >
>> > Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject. The theory
>> on
>> > which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
>> > considers that dated.
>> >
>> >> but it seems to me that a couple of
>> >> questions need to be answered first:
>> >> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented
>> Y12 IT course?
>> >> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for
>> teritary, work, or both?
>> >
>> > Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
>> > preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even
>> if
>> > it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>> >
>> > For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a
>> degree
>> > in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
>> > grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
>> > programming skills. (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready
>> to
>> > scale up.)
>> >
>> > -Steven
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 2
>> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:09:16 +1000
>> > From: "Selina Dennis" <selina at dennis.net.au>
>> > Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>> > To: "'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'"
>> > <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> > Message-ID: <003801c8a0d7$aed8dd80$0c8a9880$@net.au>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> >
>> > I am both a Year 12 Software Development teacher and a Computer
>> Science
>> > graduate - I completed my CS degree late in life, circa 2005 - and
>> as
>> > someone who has worked in the IT industry since 1996, I must say
>> that I
>> > concur with Steven Bird's view that there is a chasm between
>> secondary
>> > school teaching of IT and tertiary teaching of IT. For students in
>> Year 12,
>> > the key components of software development that they will "get the
>> most out
>> > of", is the theory behind algorithms, problem solving, and also the
>> > development of their basic thinking skills. I've been teaching
>> PHP/mySQL to
>> > my students this year and while most have come into the course
>> having
>> > completed Year 10 and 11 IT, they still did not have a basic
>> understanding
>> > of fundamental programming concepts at the start of the year.
>> >
>> > Perhaps this is more of a "theological" discussion on how to teach
>> > programming to teenagers, but it's also relevant to note that much
>> of the
>> > theory that is being taught in Year 12 is rarely used or developed
>> in either
>> > tertiary study or in industry. One such example is diagrams - N-S
>> Diagrams,
>> > DFDs, etc have long been superseded by UML, both at a university
>> level and
>> > in industry - as an aside, I had never heard of NS diagrams until I
>> had to
>> > teach it in IPM, and I had worked with ISO-9000 compliant
>> corporations
>> > developing major software products.
>> >
>> > Similarly, the SDLC, as Steven has raised, is most useful for
>> large-scale
>> > projects. Students will rarely experience the benefit, nor the
>> relevance, of
>> > the SDLC, in a secondary school curriculum. More useful theory
>> would be a
>> > more focused look at iterative design, extreme programming (or any
>> other
>> > kind of agile software development), etc, and move away from the
>> excessive
>> > documentation requirements that the SDLC brings to the table.
>> >
>> > As a teacher, I would prefer to bring in key aspects of the SDLC
>> without
>> > having to formally teach every part of it. For example, a
>> concentration on
>> > testing and debugging of software - this is a twofold benefit, as
>> it teaches
>> > students to be aware of how they choose to implement functionality,
>> and also
>> > develops their analytical and observational skills when they are
>> debugging
>> > an error. Bringing in Use Case Diagrams instead of DFDs would be
>> fantastic,
>> > also, as it conceptually allows a student to think through what
>> they are
>> > providing in their system before they develop it.
>> >
>> > In general, however, I have to say I am currently much happier with
>> the core
>> > content of the Software Development course than I was with the IT:
>> > Applications course, but I still believe that it is, at its core,
>> dated and
>> > at times irrelevant. In a perfect world, we would be teaching our
>> students
>> > "good practice" programming while also preparing them for a future
>> path in
>> > IT if they so choose - both at the tertiary level and in industry.
>> >
>> > </soapbox>
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Selina Dennis
>> > Strathmore Secondary College
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
>> > On Behalf Of Steven Bird
>> > Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:01 AM
>> > To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>> >
>> > On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends
>> <timmer at melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>> >> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa
>> 1990
>> > (which
>> >> is not necessarily a bad thing)
>> >
>> > Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject. The theory
>> on
>> > which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
>> > considers that dated.
>> >
>> >> but it seems to me that a couple of
>> >> questions need to be answered first:
>> >> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented
>> Y12 IT
>> > course?
>> >> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for
>> teritary,
>> > work, or both?
>> >
>> > Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
>> > preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even
>> if
>> > it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>> >
>> > For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a
>> degree
>> > in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
>> > grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
>> > programming skills. (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready
>> to
>> > scale up.)
>> >
>> > -Steven
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > http://www.edulists.com.au
>> > IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>> > http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>> Authority
>> > and
>> >
>> ttp://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>> VITTA
>> > Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 3
>> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:20:04 +1000
>> > From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>> > To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>> > <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> > Message-ID: <4807CD14.8060002 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>> >
>> > Yes - and we have to position VCE against VET, which is the more
>> > practical, work-oriented stream.
>> >
>> > Frankly, I can't see SD being directly useful in providing students
>> with
>> > workplace skills. It's simply not deep enough in programming
>> skills -
>> > and it could never be in the time available. And by the time the
>> kids
>> > took the tram from school to their first job, the entire IT
>> industry
>> > would have had three technological revolutions in the meantime, so
>> any
>> > language they learned would have been superseded.
>> >
>> > I see SD as giving students a taste of the mindset of software
>> > development, to be developed later at uni or TAFE.
>> >
>> > 2.2c worth, and falling against the Yen.
>> >
>> > Timmer-Arends wrote:
>> >> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa
>> 1990 (which
>> >> is not necessarily a bad thing) but it seems to me that a couple
>> of
>> >> questions need to be answered first:
>> >> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented
>> Y12 IT
>> >> course?
>> >> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for
>> teritary,
>> >> work, or both?
>> >>
>> >> Regards
>> >> Robert T-A
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Bird"
>> <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>> >> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>> >> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> >> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:41 AM
>> >> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> [Adrian -- thanks for picking a more appropriate subject line now
>> that
>> >>> discussion has moved away from data flow diagrams.]
>> >>>
>> >>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:28 PM, andrew barry
>> <jagguy999 at gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>> I prefer to just teach an IT subject which is just programming
>> and some
>> >>>> programming design eg psuedo code.
>> >>>
>> >>> I agree. Students should learn how to walk before learning how
>> to
>> >>> run, i.e. they should be competent with "programming
>> in-the-small"
>> >>> before they spend much time on "programming in-the-large" (incl
>> SDLC).
>> >>>
>> >>>> Including so much theory doesn't get any student excited about
>> learning
>> >>>> IT
>> >>>> at Uni. After all we are trying to promote IT beyond yr12 are we
>> not?
>> >>>> Are
>> >>>> we
>> >>>> not trying to get more people to do it?
>> >>>
>> >>> I agree with Adrian that rigour is important, and this cuts
>> across
>> >>> analysis, design, implementation, documentation, etc. The SDLC
>> is one
>> >>> source of theory but I question its suitability at this level.
>> It's
>> >>> intended for software engineering projects where you have to
>> manage
>> >>> whole teams of developers, client relationships, project
>> deliverables,
>> >>> etc. When students aren't already experienced at small-scale
>> >>> programming the emphasis often falls on a rather heavy document
>> >>> process, which has to be one of the least exciting aspects of
>> software
>> >>> development.
>> >>>
>> >>> Another issue I have with the emphasis on SDLC as a major source
>> of
>> >>> theoretical content is that it focusses too much on the software
>> >>> development process. Of course that's entirely appropriate given
>> the
>> >>> title of the subject, but there's some other areas of computing
>> theory
>> >>> that would be useful and accessible at this level, including
>> >>> algorithmic problem solving and the limits of computing. Here's
>> a
>> >>> couple of introductory books that cover these topics in a
>> >>> non-mathematical yet rigorous and intellectually stimulating way:
>> >>>
>> >>> Algorithmics: The Spirit of Computing (3rd Ed, David Harel,
>> Addison
>> >>> Wesley, 2004)
>> >>>
>> >>> Computers Ltd: What They Really Can't Do (David Harel, Oxford
>> >>> University Press, 2000)
>> >>>
>> >>> -Steven Bird
>> >>> http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>> >>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>> >>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>> >>> Authority
>> >>> and
>> >>>
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>> >>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Mark Kelly
>> > Manager - Information Systems
>> > McKinnon Secondary College
>> > McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>> > Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
>> > School Phone +613 8520 9000
>> > School Fax +613 95789253
>> > kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>> >
>> > Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>> > IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
>> > Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>> >
>> > A conclusion is the place where you got sick of thinking.
>> > If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > sofdev mailing list
>> > sofdev at edulists.com.au
>> > http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>> >
>> >
>> > End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>> > **************************************
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au> IT Software
>> > Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>> > http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>> > <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>> > -
>> > Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>> > http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au> - VITTA Victorian
>> > Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>> >
>> >
>> >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > Checked by AVG.
>> > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1375 - Release Date:
>> 12/04/2008 11:32 AM
>>
>> --
>> Mark Kelly
>> Manager - Information Systems
>> McKinnon Secondary College
>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>>
>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>
>> Only those who swim against the current know the current is there.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:04:52 +1000
>> From: "Meadows, Roslyn M" <Meadows.Roslyn.M at edumail.vic.gov.au>
>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> Message-ID:
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>> <93564D1B69FCEC47BB2D847F7B0888DA0187937C at EDUSM03.education.vic.gov.au>
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>> End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
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