[Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks (MarkKelly)

Adrian Janson janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au
Tue Apr 22 23:42:07 EST 2008


Hi everyone,

"Teachers are NOT curriculum materials developers."

I have to say that this statement goes against everything that I believe.  I
have designed the Year 9 and Year 10 courses that I teach for IT - and I
revise and update them each year so that they are well suited to the cohort
that I teach.  Who best understands the needs of our students?  We each
do...  and when it comes to VCE - each one of us is passionate about what
content is best suited to the future prospects of our VCE students and the
discipline of ICT as a whole.  I for one and passionate about ICT and have
very definite views about what core skills ICT students need moving forward
- into a career path or their lives.

My 2c

Cheers,
Adrian

-----Original Message-----
From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
On Behalf Of Timmer-Arends
Sent: Tuesday, 22 April 2008 6:25 PM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks
(MarkKelly)

>> Teachers are NOT curriculum materials developers.

Stephen, I can't agree with this statement either, simply because I believe 
that is one of the crafts of being a teacher; ie being able to develop 
material which will help convey concepts and skills to students (and that 
might include dipping into whatever resources are available out there)

I had thought from earlier posts on this topic that you originally meant 
that teachers should not be developing 'content'; ie deciding what skills 
and knowledge students should have by the end of a year. And I have some 
sympathy for this view - but maybe it's not what you meant in the first 
place???

Anyway, I have come to the view that SDs need to be far more explicit and 
specific about what knowledge/skills students should have by the end of Year

12. It is the final year of secondary enducation and I cannot see any other 
way of guaranteeing any sort of standard. Providing flexibility in a course 
so that teachers can meet the needs of their students is one thing (and 
important), but allowing teachers to decide the depth themselves is 
problematic, and I suspect leads to the exam becoming the standard setter, 
and I don't know that that is a good thing.

Regards
Robert T-A
Brighton SC


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Kelly" <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List" 
<sofdev at edulists.com.au>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks 
(MarkKelly)


>
> Stephen Digby wrote:
>> Here here !!!
>> I say again.....
>>

>
> Oooh - I think we are.  But we often rely on textbook writers to save us 
> doing it ourselves.  We still have to choose which materials we use.
>
>> It is the curriculum design authorities responsibility to provide 
>> classroom teaching materials to teachers (preferably with a range of 
>> options !).
>
> Is it?  This would come as a surprise to most curriculum design 
> authorities - except the ones in China, perhaps.  If they DID provide 
> anything more than sample teaching materials, I would be deeply worried 
> about government interference.
>
>> It is teachers responsibility to understand the content and their 
>> students so that they can use these materials to plan, prep, teach, 
>> correct, and communicate
>> Inevitably teachers will tweak for their own class and discover 
>> possibilities, alternatives, improvements.
>> The second responsibility of the curriculum design authority should be to

>> systematically collect and utilise this field testing to improve the 
>> curriculum design.
>>  Two examples to show how simple these processes are:
>> - give the curriculum design to all publishers and ask for draft 
>> responses in terms of classroom material support. Choose a single 
>> publisher as the recommended support material for a definite period e.g
>> 3 years so that they have the chance to profit from their recommended 
>> status.
>
> I can already hear the screaming about this one. One vital feature of 
> education is the freedom to use a variety of suitable resources at the 
> discretion of the student and teacher.
> Choosing a "preferred" publisher would cause sales of other 'unapproved' 
> texts to evaporate, and considering the already-precarious IT textbook 
> sales figures most other publishers would not bother releasing a text at 
> all.
>
> This would, in effect, result in a single textbook and stifle the richness

> of available opinion and pedagogical style.  Publishers would be in 
> revolt - quite justifiably.
>
> And how will the 'approved' text be chosen?  Do you expect VCAA to choose 
> a publisher on the basis of a proposal and a sample chapter from 
> publishers?  For that would be the only way it could work: VCAA would have

> no finished textbook to base its judgement on because NO publisher is 
> going to pay authors to create a full text and submit it in the hope of 
> being picked.  It just would not happen!
>
> And if the preferred text was later found to be flawed in some way, the 
> VCAA would be partially culpable.  I don't think they want such problems 
> being beaten to death on the nightly current affairs shows.
>
> The only 'DEECD preferred' suppliers are, and should remain to be, related

> to the supply of software, hardware and leasing services.  They must not 
> extend to educational resources. If the VCAA started down this path they 
> would be in a world of trouble.  I think this is why they are so chary 
> about recommending any resources apart from their own - the exception 
> being the last 2 pages of the study design.
>
>
>> Of course, a recommendation is not a compulsion, and schools may choose 
>> not to use the recommended resources.  The likelihood that they be chosen

>> again will of course depend on the ongoing feedback re. the quality of 
>> their resources and their continued support through the 3 years.
>> - require all teachers in all govt schools to provide copies of their sac

>> tasks with a sample answer from the teacher.  (No cost.  No copyright as 
>> the work is owned by the government).  Select the best 50 and publish on 
>> line (No Cost) as exemplars to assist teachers in Year 2.
>
> I bet VCAA is quite busy enough assessing the few tasks they call for 
> during subject auditing.  If every SAC had to be independently judged, the

> VCAA would either collapse under the weight, or grow to rival the size of 
> the public service sector of Bulgaria.  :-)
>>  etc etc etc
>
> But thanks for the interesting post, Stephen.  I'm sure it will stimulate 
> discussion.
>>  ====================================================
>> Stephen Digby, Learning Technology Manager
>> mailto: digby.stephen.p at edumail.vic.gov.au 
>> <mailto:digby.stephen.p at edumail.vic.gov.au>  Cheltenham Secondary College

>> www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au <http://www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au/>
>> Ph: 613 955 55 955  Fx: 9555 8617 Mb: 0431-701-028
>> ====================================================
>> The other day somebody stole everything in my apartment and replaced it 
>> with an exact replica... When my roommate came home I said, "Roommate, 
>> someone stole everything in our apartment and replaced it with an exact 
>> replica." He looked at me and said, "Do I know you?" Steven Wright
>>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
>>     [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Russell Quinn
>>     *Sent:* Monday, 21 April 2008 10:33 AM
>>     *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>     *Subject:* [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary
>>     links (MarkKelly)
>>
>>     Hi again,
>>                  I am really sorry to be so negative all of the time but
>>     I find
>>     this an appalling situation and I cannot stay silent.
>>      What I have been constantly hearing through the mail
>>     is that we have SD teachers who don't know
>>     what to teach and don't know why they are teaching it.
>>     Rest assured, it is not the teaching staff I hold to account.
>>      Consider all of the wasted time, sleep and worry by teaching
>>     staff who should be devoting their time and energy into how to
>>     teach it, preparing great materials and assessing the students work.
>>     Instead we have people running around in circles trying to work
>>     out what to do.
>>      No wonder people are not keen to write their own SAC's.
>>     Apparently the VCAA is quite happy with the status quo. I look 
>> forward to making a positive contribution soon.
>>      Russell Quinn
>>      Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>>     *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 10:06 PM
>>     *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>     *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
>>
>>     Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
>>     sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>
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>>
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>>     When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>     than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>>
>>
>>     Today's Topics:
>>
>>        1. Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
>>        2. RE: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links  (Meadows, Roslyn M)
>>
>>
>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>     Message: 1
>>     Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:40:09 +1000
>>     From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>>     Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
>>     To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>     <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>     Message-ID: <48088899.8050808 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>>     Maybe the first thing to do is to decide what VCE SD is for.
>>
>>     What is it meant to achieve?
>>
>>     Is it meant to be a preparation for tertiary study?
>>     Is it meant to be a skills-based preparation for work?
>>     Is it meant to be a fun 12 months until uni begins?
>>     Is it meant to give hope to kids who are unqualified for any other 
>> VCE
>>     subject?
>>
>>     I'm sure the VCAA has a good answer to this. It would be interesting 
>> to
>>     hear it. Then, maybe, we can start re-defining SD - and ITA.
>>
>>     That's assuming VCE IT NEEDS to be redefined...
>>
>>     Which is maybe a good place for the review of the VCE IT Study Design

>> to
>>     begin...
>>
>>     And when it does, Paula, I hope it's virtual rather than with 
>> meetings
>>     in the city.  I'd much rather sit at home with a glass of Cab Sav and
>>     take time to ponder the intricacies of an argument, do research, and
>>     fast-forward through the boring people - rather than commute to the 
>> big
>>     smoke and sit with a dozen passionate people all determined to get a
>>     word in edgewise within an hour so no-one's argument can get fully
>>     thought-out, crafted and developed in its entirety.
>>
>>     Oooh! Saint Kilda's winning.  Must go...
>>
>>     Russell Quinn wrote:
>>     > The first thing  would be inclined to do is throw out all of the
>>     > networking -
>>     > which is totally irrelevant to software development (except to a 
>> small and
>>     > select few specialists) and replace it with actual software 
>> development.
>>     >
>>     > I also think the obsession with the business models should be 
>> downplayed,
>>     > and the scenario's broadened to something far more interesting. 
>> After
>>     > all, business
>>     > is just one of the reasons for writing software, and not a very
>>     > interesting one at that.
>>     >
>>     > It appears that students are voting with their feet, and I can see 
>> their
>>     > point.
>>     > The only way to plug the leak is to make the courses software based

>> and
>>     > interesting.
>>     >
>>     > Russell Quinn
>>     >
>>     > Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>>     >
>>     >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     > *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>>     > *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 12:00 PM
>>     > *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>     > *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>>     >
>>     > Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
>>     > sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>     >
>>     > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>     > http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>>     > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>     > sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>>     >
>>     > You can reach the person managing the list at
>>     > sofdev-owner at edulists.com.au
>>     >
>>     > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>     > than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > Today's Topics:
>>     >
>>     >    1. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Steven Bird)
>>     >    2. RE: Industry practice - tertiary links (Selina Dennis)
>>     >    3. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     >
>>     > Message: 1
>>     > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:00:37 +1000
>>     > From: "Steven Bird" <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>>     > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>     > To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>     > <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>     > Message-ID:
>>     > <97e4e62e0804171400q6bf98a9fq3acd059906fe980 at mail.gmail.com>
>>     > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>     >
>>     > On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends 
>> <timmer at melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>>     >> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 
>> 1990 (which
>>     >>  is not necessarily a bad thing)
>>     >
>>     > Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject.  The theory

>> on
>>     > which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
>>     > considers that dated.
>>     >
>>     >> but it seems to me that a couple of
>>     >> questions need  to be answered first:
>>     >>  1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented 
>> Y12 IT course?
>>     >>  2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for 
>> teritary, work, or both?
>>     >
>>     > Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
>>     > preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even 
>> if
>>     > it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>>     >
>>     > For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a 
>> degree
>>     > in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
>>     > grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
>>     > programming skills.  (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready

>> to
>>     > scale up.)
>>     >
>>     > -Steven
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > ------------------------------
>>     >
>>     > Message: 2
>>     > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:09:16 +1000
>>     > From: "Selina Dennis" <selina at dennis.net.au>
>>     > Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>     > To: "'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'"
>>     > <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>     > Message-ID: <003801c8a0d7$aed8dd80$0c8a9880$@net.au>
>>     > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>     >
>>     > I am both a Year 12 Software Development teacher and a Computer 
>> Science
>>     > graduate - I completed my CS degree late in life, circa 2005 - and 
>> as
>>     > someone who has worked in the IT industry since 1996, I must say 
>> that I
>>     > concur with Steven Bird's view that there is a chasm between 
>> secondary
>>     > school teaching of IT and tertiary teaching of IT. For students in 
>> Year 12,
>>     > the key components of software development that they will "get the 
>> most out
>>     > of", is the theory behind algorithms, problem solving, and also the
>>     > development of their basic thinking skills. I've been teaching 
>> PHP/mySQL to
>>     > my students this year and while most have come into the course 
>> having
>>     > completed Year 10 and 11 IT, they still did not have a basic 
>> understanding
>>     > of fundamental programming concepts at the start of the year.
>>     >
>>     > Perhaps this is more of a "theological" discussion on how to teach
>>     > programming to teenagers, but it's also relevant to note that much 
>> of the
>>     > theory that is being taught in Year 12 is rarely used or developed 
>> in either
>>     > tertiary study or in industry. One such example is diagrams - N-S 
>> Diagrams,
>>     > DFDs, etc have long been superseded by UML, both at a university 
>> level and
>>     > in industry - as an aside, I had never heard of NS diagrams until I

>> had to
>>     > teach it in IPM, and I had worked with ISO-9000 compliant 
>> corporations
>>     > developing major software products.
>>     >
>>     > Similarly, the SDLC, as Steven has raised, is most useful for 
>> large-scale
>>     > projects. Students will rarely experience the benefit, nor the 
>> relevance, of
>>     > the SDLC, in a secondary school curriculum. More useful theory 
>> would be a
>>     > more focused look at iterative design, extreme programming (or any 
>> other
>>     > kind of agile software development), etc, and move away from the 
>> excessive
>>     > documentation requirements that the SDLC brings to the table.
>>     >
>>     > As a teacher, I would prefer to bring in key aspects of the SDLC 
>> without
>>     > having to formally teach every part of it. For example, a 
>> concentration on
>>     > testing and debugging of software - this is a twofold benefit, as 
>> it teaches
>>     > students to be aware of how they choose to implement functionality,

>> and also
>>     > develops their analytical and observational skills when they are 
>> debugging
>>     > an error. Bringing in Use Case Diagrams instead of DFDs would be 
>> fantastic,
>>     > also, as it conceptually allows a student to think through what 
>> they are
>>     > providing in their system before they develop it.
>>     >
>>     > In general, however, I have to say I am currently much happier with

>> the core
>>     > content of the Software Development course than I was with the IT:
>>     > Applications course, but I still believe that it is, at its core, 
>> dated and
>>     > at times irrelevant. In a perfect world, we would be teaching our 
>> students
>>     > "good practice" programming while also preparing them for a future 
>> path in
>>     > IT if they so choose - both at the tertiary level and in industry.
>>     >
>>     > </soapbox>
>>     >
>>     > Regards,
>>     >
>>     > Selina Dennis
>>     > Strathmore Secondary College
>>     >
>>     > -----Original Message-----
>>     > From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au 
>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
>>     > On Behalf Of Steven Bird
>>     > Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:01 AM
>>     > To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>     > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>     >
>>     > On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends 
>> <timmer at melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>>     >> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 
>> 1990
>>     > (which
>>     >>  is not necessarily a bad thing)
>>     >
>>     > Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject.  The theory

>> on
>>     > which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
>>     > considers that dated.
>>     >
>>     >> but it seems to me that a couple of
>>     >> questions need  to be answered first:
>>     >>  1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented 
>> Y12 IT
>>     > course?
>>     >>  2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for 
>> teritary,
>>     > work, or both?
>>     >
>>     > Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
>>     > preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even 
>> if
>>     > it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>>     >
>>     > For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a 
>> degree
>>     > in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
>>     > grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
>>     > programming skills.  (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready

>> to
>>     > scale up.)
>>     >
>>     > -Steven
>>     > _______________________________________________
>>     > http://www.edulists.com.au
>>     > IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>     > http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment 
>> Authority
>>     > and
>>     > 
>> ttp://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html  - 
>> VITTA
>>     > Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > ------------------------------
>>     >
>>     > Message: 3
>>     > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:20:04 +1000
>>     > From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>>     > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>     > To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>     > <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>     > Message-ID: <4807CD14.8060002 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>>     > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>     >
>>     > Yes - and we have to position VCE against VET, which is the more
>>     > practical, work-oriented stream.
>>     >
>>     > Frankly, I can't see SD being directly useful in providing students

>> with
>>     > workplace skills.  It's simply not deep enough in programming 
>> skills -
>>     > and it could never be in the time available.  And by the time the 
>> kids
>>     > took the tram from school to their first job, the entire IT 
>> industry
>>     > would have had three technological revolutions in the meantime, so 
>> any
>>     > language they learned would have been superseded.
>>     >
>>     > I see SD as giving students a taste of the mindset of software
>>     > development, to be developed later at uni or TAFE.
>>     >
>>     > 2.2c worth, and falling against the Yen.
>>     >
>>     > Timmer-Arends wrote:
>>     >> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 
>> 1990 (which
>>     >> is not necessarily a bad thing) but it seems to me that a couple 
>> of
>>     >> questions need  to be answered first:
>>     >> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented 
>> Y12 IT
>>     >> course?
>>     >> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for 
>> teritary,
>>     >> work, or both?
>>     >>
>>     >> Regards
>>     >> Robert T-A
>>     >>
>>     >>
>>     >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Bird" 
>> <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>>     >> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>     >> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>     >> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:41 AM
>>     >> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>     >>
>>     >>
>>     >>> [Adrian -- thanks for picking a more appropriate subject line now

>> that
>>     >>> discussion has moved away from data flow diagrams.]
>>     >>>
>>     >>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:28 PM, andrew barry 
>> <jagguy999 at gmail.com>
>>     >>> wrote:
>>     >>>> I prefer to just teach an IT subject which is just programming 
>> and some
>>     >>>> programming design eg psuedo code.
>>     >>>
>>     >>> I agree.  Students should learn how to walk before learning how 
>> to
>>     >>> run, i.e. they should be competent with "programming 
>> in-the-small"
>>     >>> before they spend much time on "programming in-the-large" (incl 
>> SDLC).
>>     >>>
>>     >>>> Including so much theory doesn't get any student excited about 
>> learning
>>     >>>> IT
>>     >>>> at Uni. After all we are trying to promote IT beyond yr12 are we

>> not?
>>     >>>> Are
>>     >>>> we
>>     >>>> not trying to get more people to do it?
>>     >>>
>>     >>> I agree with Adrian that rigour is important, and this cuts 
>> across
>>     >>> analysis, design, implementation, documentation, etc.  The SDLC 
>> is one
>>     >>> source of theory but I question its suitability at this level. 
>> It's
>>     >>> intended for software engineering projects where you have to 
>> manage
>>     >>> whole teams of developers, client relationships, project 
>> deliverables,
>>     >>> etc.  When students aren't already experienced at small-scale
>>     >>> programming the emphasis often falls on a rather heavy document
>>     >>> process, which has to be one of the least exciting aspects of 
>> software
>>     >>> development.
>>     >>>
>>     >>> Another issue I have with the emphasis on SDLC as a major source 
>> of
>>     >>> theoretical content is that it focusses too much on the software
>>     >>> development process.  Of course that's entirely appropriate given

>> the
>>     >>> title of the subject, but there's some other areas of computing 
>> theory
>>     >>> that would be useful and accessible at this level, including
>>     >>> algorithmic problem solving and the limits of computing.  Here's 
>> a
>>     >>> couple of introductory books that cover these topics in a
>>     >>> non-mathematical yet rigorous and intellectually stimulating way:
>>     >>>
>>     >>> Algorithmics: The Spirit of Computing (3rd Ed, David Harel, 
>> Addison
>>     >>> Wesley, 2004)
>>     >>>
>>     >>> Computers Ltd: What They Really Can't Do (David Harel, Oxford
>>     >>> University Press, 2000)
>>     >>>
>>     >>> -Steven Bird
>>     >>> http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/
>>     >>> _______________________________________________
>>     >>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>>     >>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>     >>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>     >>> Authority
>>     >>> and
>>     >>> 
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html  -
>>     >>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > --
>>     > Mark Kelly
>>     > Manager - Information Systems
>>     > McKinnon Secondary College
>>     > McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>>     > Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
>>     > School Phone +613 8520 9000
>>     > School Fax +613 95789253
>>     > kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>     >
>>     > Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>     > IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
>>     > Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>     >
>>     > A conclusion is the place where you got sick of thinking.
>>     > If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > ------------------------------
>>     >
>>     > _______________________________________________
>>     > sofdev mailing list
>>     > sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>     > http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>>     > **************************************
>>     >
>>     > _______________________________________________
>>     > http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au> IT Software
>>     > Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>     > http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>>     > <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html

>>  > -
>>     > Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>>     > http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au> - VITTA Victorian
>>     > Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>     >
>>     >
>>     >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     >
>>     > No virus found in this incoming message.
>>     > Checked by AVG.
>>     > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1375 - Release Date: 
>> 12/04/2008 11:32 AM
>>
>>     --
>>     Mark Kelly
>>     Manager - Information Systems
>>     McKinnon Secondary College
>>     kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>     McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>>     Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>>
>>     Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>     IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
>>     Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>
>>     Only those who swim against the current know the current is there.
>>
>>
>>     ------------------------------
>>
>>     Message: 2
>>     Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:04:52 +1000
>>     From: "Meadows, Roslyn M" <Meadows.Roslyn.M at edumail.vic.gov.au>
>>     Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
>>     To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>     <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>     Message-ID:
>> 
>> <93564D1B69FCEC47BB2D847F7B0888DA0187937C at EDUSM03.education.vic.gov.au>
>>
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>>     ------------------------------
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
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>>
>>     End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
>>     **************************************
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au>IT Software
>>     Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>     http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>>     <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>>      > - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>>     http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au>- VITTA Victorian
>>     Information Technology Teachers Association Inc *Important - *This 
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>> and not necessarily those of the Department of Education and Early 
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au> IT Software 
>> Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html 
>> <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html > - 
>> Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>> http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au> - VITTA Victorian 
>> Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.2/1387 - 
>> Release Date: 19/04/2008 11:31 AM
>
> -- 
> Mark Kelly
> Manager - Information Systems
> McKinnon Secondary College
> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>
> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>
> Only those who swim against the current know the current is there.
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.edulists.com.au
> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority

> and
> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html  - 
> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc 

_______________________________________________
http://www.edulists.com.au
IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority
and
http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html  - VITTA
Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc




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