[Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
(Mark Kelly)
Mark Kelly
kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
Tue Apr 22 08:44:15 EST 2008
Hi Russell
I believe Paula was subtly reminding people in her email that the answer
to your questions is, in fact, in the study design, the assessment
advice book, and the largely-ignored implementation CD.
It's worth settling down on a rainy day with all 3 resources and a large
Cab Sav and having a good look-see... It's quite interesting what you
can find in there.
Russell Quinn wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> excellent indeed to hear this news.
> Hopefully the constant stream of email
> asking" what do we teach, what level to we
> go to" will have been heard.
>
> Russell Quinn
>
> Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
> *Sent:* Mon 21/04/2008 4:58 PM
> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 32
>
> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
> (Mark Kelly)
> 2. RE: Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (MarkKelly)
> (Christophersen, Paula P)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:37:00 +1000
> From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary
> links (Mark Kelly)
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
> Message-ID: <480BFDCC.5060407 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Hi Russell. I don't think the situation is as grim as you fear. I'm
> just taking advantage of an potentially-imminent study design review to
> deconstruct the beast, study its entrails and ask a few questions.
>
> Naturally, VCAA has a strong idea of what VCE SD is for: I'm just
> wondering whether it has been questioned recently.
>
> And since many tertiary people and employers have hopes & expectations
> of VCE courses, it's worth review whether, or how much, different
> stakeholders' desires are being satisfied.
>
> I like taking things apart - and sometimes putting them back together
> again :-)
>
> Cheers
> Mark
>
> Russell Quinn wrote:
>> Hi again,
>> I am really sorry to be so negative all of the time but I find
>> this an appalling situation and I cannot stay silent.
>>
>> What I have been constantly hearing through the mail
>> is that we have SD teachers who don't know
>> what to teach and don't know why they are teaching it.
>> Rest assured, it is not the teaching staff I hold to account.
>>
>> Consider all of the wasted time, sleep and worry by teaching
>> staff who should be devoting their time and energy into how to
>> teach it, preparing great materials and assessing the students work.
>> Instead we have people running around in circles trying to work
>> out what to do.
>>
>> No wonder people are not keen to write their own SAC's.
>> Apparently the VCAA is quite happy with the status quo.
>>
>> I look forward to making a positive contribution soon.
>>
>> Russell Quinn
>>
>> Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>> *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 10:06 PM
>> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
>>
>> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
>> 2. RE: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Meadows, Roslyn M)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:40:09 +1000
>> From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> Message-ID: <48088899.8050808 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Maybe the first thing to do is to decide what VCE SD is for.
>>
>> What is it meant to achieve?
>>
>> Is it meant to be a preparation for tertiary study?
>> Is it meant to be a skills-based preparation for work?
>> Is it meant to be a fun 12 months until uni begins?
>> Is it meant to give hope to kids who are unqualified for any other VCE
>> subject?
>>
>> I'm sure the VCAA has a good answer to this. It would be interesting to
>> hear it. Then, maybe, we can start re-defining SD - and ITA.
>>
>> That's assuming VCE IT NEEDS to be redefined...
>>
>> Which is maybe a good place for the review of the VCE IT Study Design to
>> begin...
>>
>> And when it does, Paula, I hope it's virtual rather than with meetings
>> in the city. I'd much rather sit at home with a glass of Cab Sav and
>> take time to ponder the intricacies of an argument, do research, and
>> fast-forward through the boring people - rather than commute to the big
>> smoke and sit with a dozen passionate people all determined to get a
>> word in edgewise within an hour so no-one's argument can get fully
>> thought-out, crafted and developed in its entirety.
>>
>> Oooh! Saint Kilda's winning. Must go...
>>
>> Russell Quinn wrote:
>>> The first thing would be inclined to do is throw out all of the
>>> networking -
>>> which is totally irrelevant to software development (except to a small and
>>> select few specialists) and replace it with actual software development.
>>>
>>> I also think the obsession with the business models should be downplayed,
>>> and the scenario's broadened to something far more interesting. After
>>> all, business
>>> is just one of the reasons for writing software, and not a very
>>> interesting one at that.
>>>
>>> It appears that students are voting with their feet, and I can see their
>>> point.
>>> The only way to plug the leak is to make the courses software based and
>>> interesting.
>>>
>>> Russell Quinn
>>>
>>> Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>>> *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 12:00 PM
>>> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>>>
>>> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
>>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>>
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>> sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>>>
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>>> sofdev-owner at edulists.com.au
>>>
>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Steven Bird)
>>> 2. RE: Industry practice - tertiary links (Selina Dennis)
>>> 3. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:00:37 +1000
>>> From: "Steven Bird" <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <97e4e62e0804171400q6bf98a9fq3acd059906fe980 at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends <timmer at melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>>>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990 (which
>>>> is not necessarily a bad thing)
>>>
>>> Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject. The theory on
>>> which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
>>> considers that dated.
>>>
>>>> but it seems to me that a couple of
>>>> questions need to be answered first:
>>>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12 IT course?
>>>> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for teritary, work, or both?
>>>
>>> Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
>>> preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even if
>>> it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>>>
>>> For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a degree
>>> in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
>>> grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
>>> programming skills. (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready to
>>> scale up.)
>>>
>>> -Steven
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:09:16 +1000
>>> From: "Selina Dennis" <selina at dennis.net.au>
>>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>> To: "'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'"
>>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>> Message-ID: <003801c8a0d7$aed8dd80$0c8a9880$@net.au>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> I am both a Year 12 Software Development teacher and a Computer Science
>>> graduate - I completed my CS degree late in life, circa 2005 - and as
>>> someone who has worked in the IT industry since 1996, I must say that I
>>> concur with Steven Bird's view that there is a chasm between secondary
>>> school teaching of IT and tertiary teaching of IT. For students in Year 12,
>>> the key components of software development that they will "get the most out
>>> of", is the theory behind algorithms, problem solving, and also the
>>> development of their basic thinking skills. I've been teaching PHP/mySQL to
>>> my students this year and while most have come into the course having
>>> completed Year 10 and 11 IT, they still did not have a basic understanding
>>> of fundamental programming concepts at the start of the year.
>>>
>>> Perhaps this is more of a "theological" discussion on how to teach
>>> programming to teenagers, but it's also relevant to note that much of the
>>> theory that is being taught in Year 12 is rarely used or developed in either
>>> tertiary study or in industry. One such example is diagrams - N-S Diagrams,
>>> DFDs, etc have long been superseded by UML, both at a university level and
>>> in industry - as an aside, I had never heard of NS diagrams until I had to
>>> teach it in IPM, and I had worked with ISO-9000 compliant corporations
>>> developing major software products.
>>>
>>> Similarly, the SDLC, as Steven has raised, is most useful for large-scale
>>> projects. Students will rarely experience the benefit, nor the relevance, of
>>> the SDLC, in a secondary school curriculum. More useful theory would be a
>>> more focused look at iterative design, extreme programming (or any other
>>> kind of agile software development), etc, and move away from the excessive
>>> documentation requirements that the SDLC brings to the table.
>>>
>>> As a teacher, I would prefer to bring in key aspects of the SDLC without
>>> having to formally teach every part of it. For example, a concentration on
>>> testing and debugging of software - this is a twofold benefit, as it teaches
>>> students to be aware of how they choose to implement functionality, and also
>>> develops their analytical and observational skills when they are debugging
>>> an error. Bringing in Use Case Diagrams instead of DFDs would be fantastic,
>>> also, as it conceptually allows a student to think through what they are
>>> providing in their system before they develop it.
>>>
>>> In general, however, I have to say I am currently much happier with the core
>>> content of the Software Development course than I was with the IT:
>>> Applications course, but I still believe that it is, at its core, dated and
>>> at times irrelevant. In a perfect world, we would be teaching our students
>>> "good practice" programming while also preparing them for a future path in
>>> IT if they so choose - both at the tertiary level and in industry.
>>>
>>> </soapbox>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Selina Dennis
>>> Strathmore Secondary College
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
>>> On Behalf Of Steven Bird
>>> Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:01 AM
>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends <timmer at melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>>>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990
>>> (which
>>>> is not necessarily a bad thing)
>>>
>>> Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject. The theory on
>>> which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
>>> considers that dated.
>>>
>>>> but it seems to me that a couple of
>>>> questions need to be answered first:
>>>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12 IT
>>> course?
>>>> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for teritary,
>>> work, or both?
>>>
>>> Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
>>> preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even if
>>> it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>>>
>>> For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a degree
>>> in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
>>> grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
>>> programming skills. (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready to
>>> scale up.)
>>>
>>> -Steven
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority
>>> and
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html - VITTA
>>> Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:20:04 +1000
>>> From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>> Message-ID: <4807CD14.8060002 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>
>>> Yes - and we have to position VCE against VET, which is the more
>>> practical, work-oriented stream.
>>>
>>> Frankly, I can't see SD being directly useful in providing students with
>>> workplace skills. It's simply not deep enough in programming skills -
>>> and it could never be in the time available. And by the time the kids
>>> took the tram from school to their first job, the entire IT industry
>>> would have had three technological revolutions in the meantime, so any
>>> language they learned would have been superseded.
>>>
>>> I see SD as giving students a taste of the mindset of software
>>> development, to be developed later at uni or TAFE.
>>>
>>> 2.2c worth, and falling against the Yen.
>>>
>>> Timmer-Arends wrote:
>>>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990 (which
>>>> is not necessarily a bad thing) but it seems to me that a couple of
>>>> questions need to be answered first:
>>>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12 IT
>>>> course?
>>>> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for teritary,
>>>> work, or both?
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Robert T-A
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Bird" <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:41 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> [Adrian -- thanks for picking a more appropriate subject line now that
>>>>> discussion has moved away from data flow diagrams.]
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:28 PM, andrew barry <jagguy999 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I prefer to just teach an IT subject which is just programming and some
>>>>>> programming design eg psuedo code.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree. Students should learn how to walk before learning how to
>>>>> run, i.e. they should be competent with "programming in-the-small"
>>>>> before they spend much time on "programming in-the-large" (incl SDLC).
>>>>>
>>>>>> Including so much theory doesn't get any student excited about learning
>>>>>> IT
>>>>>> at Uni. After all we are trying to promote IT beyond yr12 are we not?
>>>>>> Are
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> not trying to get more people to do it?
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with Adrian that rigour is important, and this cuts across
>>>>> analysis, design, implementation, documentation, etc. The SDLC is one
>>>>> source of theory but I question its suitability at this level. It's
>>>>> intended for software engineering projects where you have to manage
>>>>> whole teams of developers, client relationships, project deliverables,
>>>>> etc. When students aren't already experienced at small-scale
>>>>> programming the emphasis often falls on a rather heavy document
>>>>> process, which has to be one of the least exciting aspects of software
>>>>> development.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another issue I have with the emphasis on SDLC as a major source of
>>>>> theoretical content is that it focusses too much on the software
>>>>> development process. Of course that's entirely appropriate given the
>>>>> title of the subject, but there's some other areas of computing theory
>>>>> that would be useful and accessible at this level, including
>>>>> algorithmic problem solving and the limits of computing. Here's a
>>>>> couple of introductory books that cover these topics in a
>>>>> non-mathematical yet rigorous and intellectually stimulating way:
>>>>>
>>>>> Algorithmics: The Spirit of Computing (3rd Ed, David Harel, Addison
>>>>> Wesley, 2004)
>>>>>
>>>>> Computers Ltd: What They Really Can't Do (David Harel, Oxford
>>>>> University Press, 2000)
>>>>>
>>>>> -Steven Bird
>>>>> http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>>>> Authority
>>>>> and
>>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>>>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mark Kelly
>>> Manager - Information Systems
>>> McKinnon Secondary College
>>> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
>>> School Phone +613 8520 9000
>>> School Fax +613 95789253
>>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>>
>>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
>>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>>
>>> A conclusion is the place where you got sick of thinking.
>>> If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sofdev mailing list
>>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>>>
>>>
>>> End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>>> **************************************
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au> IT Software
>>> Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>>> <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html > -
>>> Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au> - VITTA Victorian
>>> Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG.
>>> Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1375 - Release Date: 12/04/2008 11:32 AM
>>
>> --
>> Mark Kelly
>> Manager - Information Systems
>> McKinnon Secondary College
>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>>
>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>
>> Only those who swim against the current know the current is there.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:04:52 +1000
>> From: "Meadows, Roslyn M" <Meadows.Roslyn.M at edumail.vic.gov.au>
>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> Message-ID:
>> <93564D1B69FCEC47BB2D847F7B0888DA0187937C at EDUSM03.education.vic.gov.au>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sofdev mailing list
>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>>
>>
>> End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
>> **************************************
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au> IT Software
>> Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>> <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html > -
>> Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>> http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au> - VITTA Victorian
>> Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>
>
> --
> Mark Kelly
> Manager - Information Systems
> McKinnon Secondary College
> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
> School Phone +613 8520 9000
> School Fax +613 95789253
> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>
> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>
> A conclusion is the place where you got sick of thinking.
> If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:55:55 +1000
> From: "Christophersen, Paula P"
> <christophersen.paula.p at edumail.vic.gov.au>
> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary
> links (MarkKelly)
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
> Message-ID:
> <262D8BF8834D4946BA29CC0536021892A33F41 at educm02.education.vic.gov.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear colleagues
>
>
>
> As Mark K has correctly stated, the review of the current VCE study
> design will commence later this year. As always, the study design is
> reviewed and developed by a panel comprising teachers from all sectors,
> academics and industry representatives. All teachers have the
> opportunity to be considered for this panel through an expression of
> interest (forms will be in the VCAA Bulletin later in term 3).
>
>
>
> Once a draft study design is developed it is made publicly available for
> feedback. So, if you are not on the panel, you have every opportunity to
> contribute your thoughts on the draft proposal. This invitation is also
> extended to organisations such as subject associations and peak bodies
> associated with the IT industry. The review panel takes this feedback
> seriously, and it must report to an internal VCAA committee on how this
> feedback has been considered.
>
>
>
> If you have any concerns regarding matters relating to the VCE IT, I
> would urge you to re-read the study design, including the Advice to
> teachers, the Assessment Handbook, the School-assessed coursework
> reports, the Assessors' reports for the examinations and the VCAA CD,
> Implementing VCE IT. Of course you also have this rich listserv and you
> can always contact me.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Paula
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Paula Christophersen
>
> ICT Curriculum Manager
>
> VCAA
>
> 41 St Andrews Place
>
> EAST MELBOURNE 3002
>
> (03) 9651 4378
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
> Sent: Monday, 21 April 2008 12:37 PM
> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
> (MarkKelly)
>
>
>
> Hi Russell. I don't think the situation is as grim as you fear. I'm
>
> just taking advantage of an potentially-imminent study design review to
>
> deconstruct the beast, study its entrails and ask a few questions.
>
>
>
> Naturally, VCAA has a strong idea of what VCE SD is for: I'm just
>
> wondering whether it has been questioned recently.
>
>
>
> And since many tertiary people and employers have hopes & expectations
>
> of VCE courses, it's worth review whether, or how much, different
>
> stakeholders' desires are being satisfied.
>
>
>
> I like taking things apart - and sometimes putting them back together
>
> again :-)
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Russell Quinn wrote:
>
>> Hi again,
>
>> I am really sorry to be so negative all of the time but I
> find
>
>> this an appalling situation and I cannot stay silent.
>
>>
>
>> What I have been constantly hearing through the mail
>
>> is that we have SD teachers who don't know
>
>> what to teach and don't know why they are teaching it.
>
>> Rest assured, it is not the teaching staff I hold to account.
>
>>
>
>> Consider all of the wasted time, sleep and worry by teaching
>
>> staff who should be devoting their time and energy into how to
>
>> teach it, preparing great materials and assessing the students work.
>
>> Instead we have people running around in circles trying to work
>
>> out what to do.
>
>>
>
>> No wonder people are not keen to write their own SAC's.
>
>> Apparently the VCAA is quite happy with the status quo.
>
>>
>
>> I look forward to making a positive contribution soon.
>
>>
>
>> Russell Quinn
>
>>
>
>> Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>
>>
>
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>> *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>
>> *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 10:06 PM
>
>> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>
>> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
>
>>
>
>> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
>
>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>
>>
>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>
>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>
>> sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>
>>
>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>
>> sofdev-owner at edulists.com.au
>
>>
>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>
>> than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Today's Topics:
>
>>
>
>> 1. Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
>
>> 2. RE: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Meadows, Roslyn M)
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>
>
>> Message: 1
>
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:40:09 +1000
>
>> From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
>
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>
>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>
>> Message-ID: <48088899.8050808 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>>
>
>> Maybe the first thing to do is to decide what VCE SD is for.
>
>>
>
>> What is it meant to achieve?
>
>>
>
>> Is it meant to be a preparation for tertiary study?
>
>> Is it meant to be a skills-based preparation for work?
>
>> Is it meant to be a fun 12 months until uni begins?
>
>> Is it meant to give hope to kids who are unqualified for any other VCE
>
>
>> subject?
>
>>
>
>> I'm sure the VCAA has a good answer to this. It would be interesting
> to
>
>> hear it. Then, maybe, we can start re-defining SD - and ITA.
>
>>
>
>> That's assuming VCE IT NEEDS to be redefined...
>
>>
>
>> Which is maybe a good place for the review of the VCE IT Study Design
> to
>
>> begin...
>
>>
>
>> And when it does, Paula, I hope it's virtual rather than with meetings
>
>
>> in the city. I'd much rather sit at home with a glass of Cab Sav and
>
>> take time to ponder the intricacies of an argument, do research, and
>
>> fast-forward through the boring people - rather than commute to the
> big
>
>> smoke and sit with a dozen passionate people all determined to get a
>
>> word in edgewise within an hour so no-one's argument can get fully
>
>> thought-out, crafted and developed in its entirety.
>
>>
>
>> Oooh! Saint Kilda's winning. Must go...
>
>>
>
>> Russell Quinn wrote:
>
>>> The first thing would be inclined to do is throw out all of the
>
>>> networking -
>
>>> which is totally irrelevant to software development (except to a
> small and
>
>>> select few specialists) and replace it with actual software
> development.
>
>>>
>
>>> I also think the obsession with the business models should be
> downplayed,
>
>>> and the scenario's broadened to something far more interesting.
> After
>
>>> all, business
>
>>> is just one of the reasons for writing software, and not a very
>
>>> interesting one at that.
>
>>>
>
>>> It appears that students are voting with their feet, and I can see
> their
>
>>> point.
>
>>> The only way to plug the leak is to make the courses software based
> and
>
>>> interesting.
>
>>>
>
>>> Russell Quinn
>
>>>
>
>>> Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>
>>>
>
>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>> *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>
>>> *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 12:00 PM
>
>>> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>
>>> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>
>>>
>
>>> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
>
>>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>
>>>
>
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>
>>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>
>>> sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>
>>>
>
>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>
>>> sofdev-owner at edulists.com.au
>
>>>
>
>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>
>>> than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> Today's Topics:
>
>>>
>
>>> 1. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Steven Bird)
>
>>> 2. RE: Industry practice - tertiary links (Selina Dennis)
>
>>> 3. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>>
>
>>> Message: 1
>
>>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:00:37 +1000
>
>>> From: "Steven Bird" <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>
>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>
>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>
>>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>
>>> Message-ID:
>
>>> <97e4e62e0804171400q6bf98a9fq3acd059906fe980 at mail.gmail.com>
>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>>>
>
>>> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends <timmer at melbpc.org.au>
> wrote:
>
>>>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990
> (which
>
>>>> is not necessarily a bad thing)
>
>>>
>
>>> Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject. The theory
> on
>
>>> which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
>
>>> considers that dated.
>
>>>
>
>>>> but it seems to me that a couple of
>
>>>> questions need to be answered first:
>
>>>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented
> Y12 IT course?
>
>>>> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for
> teritary, work, or both?
>
>>>
>
>>> Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
>
>>> preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even if
>
>>> it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>
>>>
>
>>> For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a degree
>
>>> in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
>
>>> grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
>
>>> programming skills. (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready
> to
>
>>> scale up.)
>
>>>
>
>>> -Steven
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> ------------------------------
>
>>>
>
>>> Message: 2
>
>>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:09:16 +1000
>
>>> From: "Selina Dennis" <selina at dennis.net.au>
>
>>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>
>>> To: "'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'"
>
>>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>
>>> Message-ID: <003801c8a0d7$aed8dd80$0c8a9880$@net.au>
>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>>>
>
>>> I am both a Year 12 Software Development teacher and a Computer
> Science
>
>>> graduate - I completed my CS degree late in life, circa 2005 - and as
>
>>> someone who has worked in the IT industry since 1996, I must say that
> I
>
>>> concur with Steven Bird's view that there is a chasm between
> secondary
>
>>> school teaching of IT and tertiary teaching of IT. For students in
> Year 12,
>
>>> the key components of software development that they will "get the
> most out
>
>>> of", is the theory behind algorithms, problem solving, and also the
>
>>> development of their basic thinking skills. I've been teaching
> PHP/mySQL to
>
>>> my students this year and while most have come into the course having
>
>>> completed Year 10 and 11 IT, they still did not have a basic
> understanding
>
>>> of fundamental programming concepts at the start of the year.
>
>>>
>
>>> Perhaps this is more of a "theological" discussion on how to teach
>
>>> programming to teenagers, but it's also relevant to note that much of
> the
>
>>> theory that is being taught in Year 12 is rarely used or developed in
> either
>
>>> tertiary study or in industry. One such example is diagrams - N-S
> Diagrams,
>
>>> DFDs, etc have long been superseded by UML, both at a university
> level and
>
>>> in industry - as an aside, I had never heard of NS diagrams until I
> had to
>
>>> teach it in IPM, and I had worked with ISO-9000 compliant
> corporations
>
>>> developing major software products.
>
>>>
>
>>> Similarly, the SDLC, as Steven has raised, is most useful for
> large-scale
>
>>> projects. Students will rarely experience the benefit, nor the
> relevance, of
>
>>> the SDLC, in a secondary school curriculum. More useful theory would
> be a
>
>>> more focused look at iterative design, extreme programming (or any
> other
>
>>> kind of agile software development), etc, and move away from the
> excessive
>
>>> documentation requirements that the SDLC brings to the table.
>
>>>
>
>>> As a teacher, I would prefer to bring in key aspects of the SDLC
> without
>
>>> having to formally teach every part of it. For example, a
> concentration on
>
>>> testing and debugging of software - this is a twofold benefit, as it
> teaches
>
>>> students to be aware of how they choose to implement functionality,
> and also
>
>>> develops their analytical and observational skills when they are
> debugging
>
>>> an error. Bringing in Use Case Diagrams instead of DFDs would be
> fantastic,
>
>>> also, as it conceptually allows a student to think through what they
> are
>
>>> providing in their system before they develop it.
>
>>>
>
>>> In general, however, I have to say I am currently much happier with
> the core
>
>>> content of the Software Development course than I was with the IT:
>
>>> Applications course, but I still believe that it is, at its core,
> dated and
>
>>> at times irrelevant. In a perfect world, we would be teaching our
> students
>
>>> "good practice" programming while also preparing them for a future
> path in
>
>>> IT if they so choose - both at the tertiary level and in industry.
>
>>>
>
>>> </soapbox>
>
>>>
>
>>> Regards,
>
>>>
>
>>> Selina Dennis
>
>>> Strathmore Secondary College
>
>>>
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>
>>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
>
>>> On Behalf Of Steven Bird
>
>>> Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:01 AM
>
>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>
>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>
>>>
>
>>> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends <timmer at melbpc.org.au>
> wrote:
>
>>>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990
>
>>> (which
>
>>>> is not necessarily a bad thing)
>
>>>
>
>>> Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject. The theory
> on
>
>>> which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
>
>>> considers that dated.
>
>>>
>
>>>> but it seems to me that a couple of
>
>>>> questions need to be answered first:
>
>>>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented
> Y12 IT
>
>>> course?
>
>>>> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for
> teritary,
>
>>> work, or both?
>
>>>
>
>>> Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
>
>>> preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even if
>
>>> it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>
>>>
>
>>> For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a degree
>
>>> in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
>
>>> grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
>
>>> programming skills. (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready
> to
>
>>> scale up.)
>
>>>
>
>>> -Steven
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>
>>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>
>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>
>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
> Authority
>
>>> and
>
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
> VITTA
>
>>> Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> ------------------------------
>
>>>
>
>>> Message: 3
>
>>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:20:04 +1000
>
>>> From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>
>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>
>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>
>>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>
>>> Message-ID: <4807CD14.8060002 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>>>
>
>>> Yes - and we have to position VCE against VET, which is the more
>
>>> practical, work-oriented stream.
>
>>>
>
>>> Frankly, I can't see SD being directly useful in providing students
> with
>
>>> workplace skills. It's simply not deep enough in programming skills
> -
>
>>> and it could never be in the time available. And by the time the
> kids
>
>>> took the tram from school to their first job, the entire IT industry
>
>>> would have had three technological revolutions in the meantime, so
> any
>
>>> language they learned would have been superseded.
>
>>>
>
>>> I see SD as giving students a taste of the mindset of software
>
>>> development, to be developed later at uni or TAFE.
>
>>>
>
>>> 2.2c worth, and falling against the Yen.
>
>>>
>
>>> Timmer-Arends wrote:
>
>>>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990
> (which
>
>>>> is not necessarily a bad thing) but it seems to me that a couple of
>
>>>> questions need to be answered first:
>
>>>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12
> IT
>
>>>> course?
>
>>>> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for
> teritary,
>
>>>> work, or both?
>
>>>>
>
>>>> Regards
>
>>>> Robert T-A
>
>>>>
>
>>>>
>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Bird"
> <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>
>>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>
>>>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:41 AM
>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>
>>>>
>
>>>>
>
>>>>> [Adrian -- thanks for picking a more appropriate subject line now
> that
>
>>>>> discussion has moved away from data flow diagrams.]
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:28 PM, andrew barry <jagguy999 at gmail.com>
>
>
>>>>> wrote:
>
>>>>>> I prefer to just teach an IT subject which is just programming and
> some
>
>>>>>> programming design eg psuedo code.
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> I agree. Students should learn how to walk before learning how to
>
>>>>> run, i.e. they should be competent with "programming in-the-small"
>
>>>>> before they spend much time on "programming in-the-large" (incl
> SDLC).
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>>> Including so much theory doesn't get any student excited about
> learning
>
>>>>>> IT
>
>>>>>> at Uni. After all we are trying to promote IT beyond yr12 are we
> not?
>
>>>>>> Are
>
>>>>>> we
>
>>>>>> not trying to get more people to do it?
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> I agree with Adrian that rigour is important, and this cuts across
>
>>>>> analysis, design, implementation, documentation, etc. The SDLC is
> one
>
>>>>> source of theory but I question its suitability at this level.
> It's
>
>>>>> intended for software engineering projects where you have to manage
>
>>>>> whole teams of developers, client relationships, project
> deliverables,
>
>>>>> etc. When students aren't already experienced at small-scale
>
>>>>> programming the emphasis often falls on a rather heavy document
>
>>>>> process, which has to be one of the least exciting aspects of
> software
>
>>>>> development.
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> Another issue I have with the emphasis on SDLC as a major source of
>
>>>>> theoretical content is that it focusses too much on the software
>
>>>>> development process. Of course that's entirely appropriate given
> the
>
>>>>> title of the subject, but there's some other areas of computing
> theory
>
>>>>> that would be useful and accessible at this level, including
>
>>>>> algorithmic problem solving and the limits of computing. Here's a
>
>>>>> couple of introductory books that cover these topics in a
>
>>>>> non-mathematical yet rigorous and intellectually stimulating way:
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> Algorithmics: The Spirit of Computing (3rd Ed, David Harel, Addison
>
>>>>> Wesley, 2004)
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> Computers Ltd: What They Really Can't Do (David Harel, Oxford
>
>>>>> University Press, 2000)
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> -Steven Bird
>
>>>>> http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/
>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>
>>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>
>>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>
>>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>
>>>>> Authority
>
>>>>> and
>
>>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
> -
>
>>>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> --
>
>>> Mark Kelly
>
>>> Manager - Information Systems
>
>>> McKinnon Secondary College
>
>>> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>
>>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
>
>>> School Phone +613 8520 9000
>
>>> School Fax +613 95789253
>
>>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>
>>>
>
>>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>
>>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
>
>>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>
>>>
>
>>> A conclusion is the place where you got sick of thinking.
>
>>> If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> ------------------------------
>
>>>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>
>>> sofdev mailing list
>
>>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>
>>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>
>>> **************************************
>
>>>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>
>>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au> IT Software
>
>>> Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>
>>> <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html >
> -
>
>>> Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au> - VITTA Victorian
>
>>> Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>>
>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>
>>> Checked by AVG.
>
>>> Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1375 - Release Date:
> 12/04/2008 11:32 AM
>
>>
>
>> --
>
>> Mark Kelly
>
>> Manager - Information Systems
>
>> McKinnon Secondary College
>
>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>
>> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>
>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>
>>
>
>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>
>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
>
>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>
>>
>
>> Only those who swim against the current know the current is there.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> ------------------------------
>
>>
>
>> Message: 2
>
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:04:52 +1000
>
>> From: "Meadows, Roslyn M" <Meadows.Roslyn.M at edumail.vic.gov.au>
>
>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
>
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>
>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>
>> Message-ID:
>
>>
> <93564D1B69FCEC47BB2D847F7B0888DA0187937C at EDUSM03.education.vic.gov.au>
>
>>
>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>>
>
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> 2/attachment-0001.jpe
>
>>
>
>> ------------------------------
>
>>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>
>> sofdev mailing list
>
>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>
>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
>
>> **************************************
>
>>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>
>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au> IT Software
>
>> Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>
>> <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html >
> -
>
>> Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>
>> http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au> - VITTA Victorian
>
>> Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Mark Kelly
>
> Manager - Information Systems
>
> McKinnon Secondary College
>
> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>
> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
>
> School Phone +613 8520 9000
>
> School Fax +613 95789253
>
> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>
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--
Mark Kelly
Manager - Information Systems
McKinnon Secondary College
McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
School Phone +613 8520 9000
School Fax +613 95789253
kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
A conclusion is the place where you got sick of thinking.
If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?
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