[Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark
Kelly)
Mark Kelly
kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
Mon Apr 21 12:37:00 EST 2008
Hi Russell. I don't think the situation is as grim as you fear. I'm
just taking advantage of an potentially-imminent study design review to
deconstruct the beast, study its entrails and ask a few questions.
Naturally, VCAA has a strong idea of what VCE SD is for: I'm just
wondering whether it has been questioned recently.
And since many tertiary people and employers have hopes & expectations
of VCE courses, it's worth review whether, or how much, different
stakeholders' desires are being satisfied.
I like taking things apart - and sometimes putting them back together
again :-)
Cheers
Mark
Russell Quinn wrote:
> Hi again,
> I am really sorry to be so negative all of the time but I find
> this an appalling situation and I cannot stay silent.
>
> What I have been constantly hearing through the mail
> is that we have SD teachers who don't know
> what to teach and don't know why they are teaching it.
> Rest assured, it is not the teaching staff I hold to account.
>
> Consider all of the wasted time, sleep and worry by teaching
> staff who should be devoting their time and energy into how to
> teach it, preparing great materials and assessing the students work.
> Instead we have people running around in circles trying to work
> out what to do.
>
> No wonder people are not keen to write their own SAC's.
> Apparently the VCAA is quite happy with the status quo.
>
> I look forward to making a positive contribution soon.
>
> Russell Quinn
>
> Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
> *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 10:06 PM
> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
>
> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> sofdev-owner at edulists.com.au
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
> 2. RE: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Meadows, Roslyn M)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:40:09 +1000
> From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
> Message-ID: <48088899.8050808 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Maybe the first thing to do is to decide what VCE SD is for.
>
> What is it meant to achieve?
>
> Is it meant to be a preparation for tertiary study?
> Is it meant to be a skills-based preparation for work?
> Is it meant to be a fun 12 months until uni begins?
> Is it meant to give hope to kids who are unqualified for any other VCE
> subject?
>
> I'm sure the VCAA has a good answer to this. It would be interesting to
> hear it. Then, maybe, we can start re-defining SD - and ITA.
>
> That's assuming VCE IT NEEDS to be redefined...
>
> Which is maybe a good place for the review of the VCE IT Study Design to
> begin...
>
> And when it does, Paula, I hope it's virtual rather than with meetings
> in the city. I'd much rather sit at home with a glass of Cab Sav and
> take time to ponder the intricacies of an argument, do research, and
> fast-forward through the boring people - rather than commute to the big
> smoke and sit with a dozen passionate people all determined to get a
> word in edgewise within an hour so no-one's argument can get fully
> thought-out, crafted and developed in its entirety.
>
> Oooh! Saint Kilda's winning. Must go...
>
> Russell Quinn wrote:
>> The first thing would be inclined to do is throw out all of the
>> networking -
>> which is totally irrelevant to software development (except to a small and
>> select few specialists) and replace it with actual software development.
>>
>> I also think the obsession with the business models should be downplayed,
>> and the scenario's broadened to something far more interesting. After
>> all, business
>> is just one of the reasons for writing software, and not a very
>> interesting one at that.
>>
>> It appears that students are voting with their feet, and I can see their
>> point.
>> The only way to plug the leak is to make the courses software based and
>> interesting.
>>
>> Russell Quinn
>>
>> Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>> *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 12:00 PM
>> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
>> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>>
>> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> sofdev-owner at edulists.com.au
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Steven Bird)
>> 2. RE: Industry practice - tertiary links (Selina Dennis)
>> 3. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:00:37 +1000
>> From: "Steven Bird" <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> Message-ID:
>> <97e4e62e0804171400q6bf98a9fq3acd059906fe980 at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends <timmer at melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990 (which
>>> is not necessarily a bad thing)
>>
>> Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject. The theory on
>> which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
>> considers that dated.
>>
>>> but it seems to me that a couple of
>>> questions need to be answered first:
>>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12 IT course?
>>> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for teritary, work, or both?
>>
>> Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
>> preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even if
>> it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>>
>> For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a degree
>> in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
>> grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
>> programming skills. (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready to
>> scale up.)
>>
>> -Steven
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:09:16 +1000
>> From: "Selina Dennis" <selina at dennis.net.au>
>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>> To: "'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'"
>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> Message-ID: <003801c8a0d7$aed8dd80$0c8a9880$@net.au>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> I am both a Year 12 Software Development teacher and a Computer Science
>> graduate - I completed my CS degree late in life, circa 2005 - and as
>> someone who has worked in the IT industry since 1996, I must say that I
>> concur with Steven Bird's view that there is a chasm between secondary
>> school teaching of IT and tertiary teaching of IT. For students in Year 12,
>> the key components of software development that they will "get the most out
>> of", is the theory behind algorithms, problem solving, and also the
>> development of their basic thinking skills. I've been teaching PHP/mySQL to
>> my students this year and while most have come into the course having
>> completed Year 10 and 11 IT, they still did not have a basic understanding
>> of fundamental programming concepts at the start of the year.
>>
>> Perhaps this is more of a "theological" discussion on how to teach
>> programming to teenagers, but it's also relevant to note that much of the
>> theory that is being taught in Year 12 is rarely used or developed in either
>> tertiary study or in industry. One such example is diagrams - N-S Diagrams,
>> DFDs, etc have long been superseded by UML, both at a university level and
>> in industry - as an aside, I had never heard of NS diagrams until I had to
>> teach it in IPM, and I had worked with ISO-9000 compliant corporations
>> developing major software products.
>>
>> Similarly, the SDLC, as Steven has raised, is most useful for large-scale
>> projects. Students will rarely experience the benefit, nor the relevance, of
>> the SDLC, in a secondary school curriculum. More useful theory would be a
>> more focused look at iterative design, extreme programming (or any other
>> kind of agile software development), etc, and move away from the excessive
>> documentation requirements that the SDLC brings to the table.
>>
>> As a teacher, I would prefer to bring in key aspects of the SDLC without
>> having to formally teach every part of it. For example, a concentration on
>> testing and debugging of software - this is a twofold benefit, as it teaches
>> students to be aware of how they choose to implement functionality, and also
>> develops their analytical and observational skills when they are debugging
>> an error. Bringing in Use Case Diagrams instead of DFDs would be fantastic,
>> also, as it conceptually allows a student to think through what they are
>> providing in their system before they develop it.
>>
>> In general, however, I have to say I am currently much happier with the core
>> content of the Software Development course than I was with the IT:
>> Applications course, but I still believe that it is, at its core, dated and
>> at times irrelevant. In a perfect world, we would be teaching our students
>> "good practice" programming while also preparing them for a future path in
>> IT if they so choose - both at the tertiary level and in industry.
>>
>> </soapbox>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Selina Dennis
>> Strathmore Secondary College
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
>> On Behalf Of Steven Bird
>> Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:01 AM
>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends <timmer at melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990
>> (which
>>> is not necessarily a bad thing)
>>
>> Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject. The theory on
>> which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
>> considers that dated.
>>
>>> but it seems to me that a couple of
>>> questions need to be answered first:
>>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12 IT
>> course?
>>> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for teritary,
>> work, or both?
>>
>> Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
>> preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even if
>> it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>>
>> For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a degree
>> in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
>> grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
>> programming skills. (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready to
>> scale up.)
>>
>> -Steven
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority
>> and
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html - VITTA
>> Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:20:04 +1000
>> From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> Message-ID: <4807CD14.8060002 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Yes - and we have to position VCE against VET, which is the more
>> practical, work-oriented stream.
>>
>> Frankly, I can't see SD being directly useful in providing students with
>> workplace skills. It's simply not deep enough in programming skills -
>> and it could never be in the time available. And by the time the kids
>> took the tram from school to their first job, the entire IT industry
>> would have had three technological revolutions in the meantime, so any
>> language they learned would have been superseded.
>>
>> I see SD as giving students a taste of the mindset of software
>> development, to be developed later at uni or TAFE.
>>
>> 2.2c worth, and falling against the Yen.
>>
>> Timmer-Arends wrote:
>>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990 (which
>>> is not necessarily a bad thing) but it seems to me that a couple of
>>> questions need to be answered first:
>>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12 IT
>>> course?
>>> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for teritary,
>>> work, or both?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Robert T-A
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Bird" <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:41 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>>
>>>
>>>> [Adrian -- thanks for picking a more appropriate subject line now that
>>>> discussion has moved away from data flow diagrams.]
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:28 PM, andrew barry <jagguy999 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I prefer to just teach an IT subject which is just programming and some
>>>>> programming design eg psuedo code.
>>>>
>>>> I agree. Students should learn how to walk before learning how to
>>>> run, i.e. they should be competent with "programming in-the-small"
>>>> before they spend much time on "programming in-the-large" (incl SDLC).
>>>>
>>>>> Including so much theory doesn't get any student excited about learning
>>>>> IT
>>>>> at Uni. After all we are trying to promote IT beyond yr12 are we not?
>>>>> Are
>>>>> we
>>>>> not trying to get more people to do it?
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Adrian that rigour is important, and this cuts across
>>>> analysis, design, implementation, documentation, etc. The SDLC is one
>>>> source of theory but I question its suitability at this level. It's
>>>> intended for software engineering projects where you have to manage
>>>> whole teams of developers, client relationships, project deliverables,
>>>> etc. When students aren't already experienced at small-scale
>>>> programming the emphasis often falls on a rather heavy document
>>>> process, which has to be one of the least exciting aspects of software
>>>> development.
>>>>
>>>> Another issue I have with the emphasis on SDLC as a major source of
>>>> theoretical content is that it focusses too much on the software
>>>> development process. Of course that's entirely appropriate given the
>>>> title of the subject, but there's some other areas of computing theory
>>>> that would be useful and accessible at this level, including
>>>> algorithmic problem solving and the limits of computing. Here's a
>>>> couple of introductory books that cover these topics in a
>>>> non-mathematical yet rigorous and intellectually stimulating way:
>>>>
>>>> Algorithmics: The Spirit of Computing (3rd Ed, David Harel, Addison
>>>> Wesley, 2004)
>>>>
>>>> Computers Ltd: What They Really Can't Do (David Harel, Oxford
>>>> University Press, 2000)
>>>>
>>>> -Steven Bird
>>>> http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>>> Authority
>>>> and
>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mark Kelly
>> Manager - Information Systems
>> McKinnon Secondary College
>> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
>> School Phone +613 8520 9000
>> School Fax +613 95789253
>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>
>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>
>> A conclusion is the place where you got sick of thinking.
>> If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sofdev mailing list
>> sofdev at edulists.com.au
>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>>
>>
>> End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>> **************************************
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au> IT Software
>> Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>> <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html > -
>> Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>> http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au> - VITTA Victorian
>> Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG.
>> Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1375 - Release Date: 12/04/2008 11:32 AM
>
> --
> Mark Kelly
> Manager - Information Systems
> McKinnon Secondary College
> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>
> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>
> Only those who swim against the current know the current is there.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:04:52 +1000
> From: "Meadows, Roslyn M" <Meadows.Roslyn.M at edumail.vic.gov.au>
> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
> Message-ID:
> <93564D1B69FCEC47BB2D847F7B0888DA0187937C at EDUSM03.education.vic.gov.au>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part --------------
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> Name: not available
> Type: image/jpeg
> Size: 1381 bytes
> Desc: image001.jpg
> Url : http://www.edulists.com.au/pipermail/sofdev/attachments/20080418/0b541aa2/attachment.jpe
> -------------- next part --------------
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> Name: not available
> Type: image/jpeg
> Size: 1316 bytes
> Desc: image002.jpg
> Url : http://www.edulists.com.au/pipermail/sofdev/attachments/20080418/0b541aa2/attachment-0001.jpe
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> sofdev mailing list
> sofdev at edulists.com.au
> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>
>
> End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
> **************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au> IT Software
> Development Mailing List kindly supported by
> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
> <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html > -
> Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
> http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au> - VITTA Victorian
> Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
--
Mark Kelly
Manager - Information Systems
McKinnon Secondary College
McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
School Phone +613 8520 9000
School Fax +613 95789253
kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
A conclusion is the place where you got sick of thinking.
If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?
More information about the sofdev
mailing list