[Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
andrew barry
jagguy999 at gmail.com
Sat Apr 19 22:12:54 EST 2008
I agree with Mark .
In the paper I am seeing companies wanting to have a say in education and IT
seems a main goal. Do we want this?
On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
wrote:
> Maybe the first thing to do is to decide what VCE SD is for.
>
> What is it meant to achieve?
>
> Is it meant to be a preparation for tertiary study?
> Is it meant to be a skills-based preparation for work?
> Is it meant to be a fun 12 months until uni begins?
> Is it meant to give hope to kids who are unqualified for any other VCE
> subject?
>
> I'm sure the VCAA has a good answer to this. It would be interesting to
> hear it. Then, maybe, we can start re-defining SD - and ITA.
>
> That's assuming VCE IT NEEDS to be redefined...
>
> Which is maybe a good place for the review of the VCE IT Study Design to
> begin...
>
> And when it does, Paula, I hope it's virtual rather than with meetings in
> the city. I'd much rather sit at home with a glass of Cab Sav and take time
> to ponder the intricacies of an argument, do research, and fast-forward
> through the boring people - rather than commute to the big smoke and sit
> with a dozen passionate people all determined to get a word in edgewise
> within an hour so no-one's argument can get fully thought-out, crafted and
> developed in its entirety.
>
> Oooh! Saint Kilda's winning. Must go...
>
> Russell Quinn wrote:
>
> > The first thing would be inclined to do is throw out all of the
> > networking -
> > which is totally irrelevant to software development (except to a small
> > and
> > select few specialists) and replace it with actual software development.
> > I also think the obsession with the business models should be
> > downplayed,
> > and the scenario's broadened to something far more interesting. After
> > all, business
> > is just one of the reasons for writing software, and not a very
> > interesting one at that.
> > It appears that students are voting with their feet, and I can see
> > their point.
> > The only way to plug the leak is to make the courses software based and
> > interesting.
> > Russell Quinn
> > Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
> > *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 12:00 PM
> > *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
> > *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
> >
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> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Steven Bird)
> > 2. RE: Industry practice - tertiary links (Selina Dennis)
> > 3. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:00:37 +1000
> > From: "Steven Bird" <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
> > To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
> > <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
> > Message-ID:
> > <97e4e62e0804171400q6bf98a9fq3acd059906fe980 at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends <timmer at melbpc.org.au>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990
> > > (which
> > > is not necessarily a bad thing)
> > >
> >
> > Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject. The theory on
> > which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
> > considers that dated.
> >
> > but it seems to me that a couple of
> > > questions need to be answered first:
> > > 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12
> > > IT course?
> > > 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for teritary,
> > > work, or both?
> > >
> >
> > Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
> > preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even if
> > it involves no formal IT study or employment.
> >
> > For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a degree
> > in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
> > grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
> > programming skills. (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready to
> > scale up.)
> >
> > -Steven
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:09:16 +1000
> > From: "Selina Dennis" <selina at dennis.net.au>
> > Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
> > To: "'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'"
> > <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
> > Message-ID: <003801c8a0d7$aed8dd80$0c8a9880$@net.au>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > I am both a Year 12 Software Development teacher and a Computer Science
> > graduate - I completed my CS degree late in life, circa 2005 - and as
> > someone who has worked in the IT industry since 1996, I must say that I
> > concur with Steven Bird's view that there is a chasm between secondary
> > school teaching of IT and tertiary teaching of IT. For students in Year
> > 12,
> > the key components of software development that they will "get the most
> > out
> > of", is the theory behind algorithms, problem solving, and also the
> > development of their basic thinking skills. I've been teaching PHP/mySQL
> > to
> > my students this year and while most have come into the course having
> > completed Year 10 and 11 IT, they still did not have a basic
> > understanding
> > of fundamental programming concepts at the start of the year.
> >
> > Perhaps this is more of a "theological" discussion on how to teach
> > programming to teenagers, but it's also relevant to note that much of
> > the
> > theory that is being taught in Year 12 is rarely used or developed in
> > either
> > tertiary study or in industry. One such example is diagrams - N-S
> > Diagrams,
> > DFDs, etc have long been superseded by UML, both at a university level
> > and
> > in industry - as an aside, I had never heard of NS diagrams until I had
> > to
> > teach it in IPM, and I had worked with ISO-9000 compliant corporations
> > developing major software products.
> >
> > Similarly, the SDLC, as Steven has raised, is most useful for
> > large-scale
> > projects. Students will rarely experience the benefit, nor the
> > relevance, of
> > the SDLC, in a secondary school curriculum. More useful theory would be
> > a
> > more focused look at iterative design, extreme programming (or any other
> > kind of agile software development), etc, and move away from the
> > excessive
> > documentation requirements that the SDLC brings to the table.
> >
> > As a teacher, I would prefer to bring in key aspects of the SDLC without
> > having to formally teach every part of it. For example, a concentration
> > on
> > testing and debugging of software - this is a twofold benefit, as it
> > teaches
> > students to be aware of how they choose to implement functionality, and
> > also
> > develops their analytical and observational skills when they are
> > debugging
> > an error. Bringing in Use Case Diagrams instead of DFDs would be
> > fantastic,
> > also, as it conceptually allows a student to think through what they are
> > providing in their system before they develop it.
> >
> > In general, however, I have to say I am currently much happier with the
> > core
> > content of the Software Development course than I was with the IT:
> > Applications course, but I still believe that it is, at its core, dated
> > and
> > at times irrelevant. In a perfect world, we would be teaching our
> > students
> > "good practice" programming while also preparing them for a future path
> > in
> > IT if they so choose - both at the tertiary level and in industry.
> >
> > </soapbox>
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Selina Dennis
> > Strathmore Secondary College
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:
> > sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
> > On Behalf Of Steven Bird
> > Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:01 AM
> > To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends <timmer at melbpc.org.au>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990
> > >
> > (which
> >
> > > is not necessarily a bad thing)
> > >
> >
> > Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject. The theory on
> > which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
> > considers that dated.
> >
> > but it seems to me that a couple of
> > > questions need to be answered first:
> > > 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12
> > > IT
> > >
> > course?
> >
> > > 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for teritary,
> > >
> > work, or both?
> >
> > Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
> > preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even if
> > it involves no formal IT study or employment.
> >
> > For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a degree
> > in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
> > grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
> > programming skills. (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready to
> > scale up.)
> >
> > -Steven
> > _______________________________________________
> > http://www.edulists.com.au
> > IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
> > http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
> > Authority
> > and
> > http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
> > VITTA
> > Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:20:04 +1000
> > From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
> > To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
> > <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
> > Message-ID: <4807CD14.8060002 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> >
> > Yes - and we have to position VCE against VET, which is the more
> > practical, work-oriented stream.
> >
> > Frankly, I can't see SD being directly useful in providing students with
> > workplace skills. It's simply not deep enough in programming skills - and
> > it could never be in the time available. And by the time the kids took the
> > tram from school to their first job, the entire IT industry would have had
> > three technological revolutions in the meantime, so any language they
> > learned would have been superseded.
> >
> > I see SD as giving students a taste of the mindset of software
> > development, to be developed later at uni or TAFE.
> >
> > 2.2c worth, and falling against the Yen.
> >
> > Timmer-Arends wrote:
> >
> > > I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990
> > > (which
> > > is not necessarily a bad thing) but it seems to me that a couple of
> > > questions need to be answered first:
> > > 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12
> > > IT course?
> > > 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for teritary,
> > > work, or both?
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Robert T-A
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Bird" <
> > > sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
> > > To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
> > > <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:41 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
> > >
> > >
> > > [Adrian -- thanks for picking a more appropriate subject line now
> > > > that
> > > > discussion has moved away from data flow diagrams.]
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:28 PM, andrew barry <jagguy999 at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I prefer to just teach an IT subject which is just programming and
> > > > > some
> > > > > programming design eg psuedo code.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I agree. Students should learn how to walk before learning how to
> > > > run, i.e. they should be competent with "programming in-the-small"
> > > > before they spend much time on "programming in-the-large" (incl
> > > > SDLC).
> > > >
> > > > Including so much theory doesn't get any student excited about
> > > > > learning
> > > > > IT
> > > > > at Uni. After all we are trying to promote IT beyond yr12 are we
> > > > > not? Are
> > > > > we
> > > > > not trying to get more people to do it?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I agree with Adrian that rigour is important, and this cuts across
> > > > analysis, design, implementation, documentation, etc. The SDLC is
> > > > one
> > > > source of theory but I question its suitability at this level. It's
> > > > intended for software engineering projects where you have to manage
> > > > whole teams of developers, client relationships, project
> > > > deliverables,
> > > > etc. When students aren't already experienced at small-scale
> > > > programming the emphasis often falls on a rather heavy document
> > > > process, which has to be one of the least exciting aspects of
> > > > software
> > > > development.
> > > >
> > > > Another issue I have with the emphasis on SDLC as a major source of
> > > > theoretical content is that it focusses too much on the software
> > > > development process. Of course that's entirely appropriate given
> > > > the
> > > > title of the subject, but there's some other areas of computing
> > > > theory
> > > > that would be useful and accessible at this level, including
> > > > algorithmic problem solving and the limits of computing. Here's a
> > > > couple of introductory books that cover these topics in a
> > > > non-mathematical yet rigorous and intellectually stimulating way:
> > > >
> > > > Algorithmics: The Spirit of Computing (3rd Ed, David Harel, Addison
> > > > Wesley, 2004)
> > > >
> > > > Computers Ltd: What They Really Can't Do (David Harel, Oxford
> > > > University Press, 2000)
> > > >
> > > > -Steven Bird
> > > > http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/<http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/%7Esb/>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > http://www.edulists.com.au
> > > > IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
> > > > http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
> > > > Authority
> > > > and
> > > > http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
> > > > VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Mark Kelly
> > Manager - Information Systems
> > McKinnon Secondary College
> > McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
> > Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
> > School Phone +613 8520 9000
> > School Fax +613 95789253
> > kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> >
> > Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> > IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
> > Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
> >
> > A conclusion is the place where you got sick of thinking.
> > If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > sofdev mailing list
> > sofdev at edulists.com.au
> > http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
> >
> >
> > End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
> > **************************************
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Development Mailing List kindly supported by
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> > http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html > -
> > Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
> > http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au> - VITTA Victorian
> > Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
> >
> >
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>
> --
> Mark Kelly
> Manager - Information Systems
> McKinnon Secondary College
> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>
> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>
> Only those who swim against the current know the current is there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.edulists.com.au
> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority
> and
> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>
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