[Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links

Mark Kelly kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
Sat Apr 19 11:35:41 EST 2008


Cobalt?  Or COBOL?

Meadows, Roslyn M wrote:
> Programming for Web Applications? Contributing to Open Source 
> Applications?  Game Development?
> 
>  
> 
> My son (2^nd year Monash IT) recently had a lecture from the top IT 
> Manager of the ANZ Bank. They were told that ANZ and GE Money still use 
> Cobalt!!  The reason being that it is too costly to change over and that 
> this system still works for them. The latest is banking via iphones and 
> other mobile devices (so the SD Study Design has got that right!) - 
> eventually we will not need cards to pay, just our phone - and that the 
> latest thing on the internet is peer-to peer money lending (social 
> lending, see www.prosper.com <http://www.prosper.com> not sure if there 
> is an aussie version yet) – which the banks see as a real threat to 
> their existence (as it virtually cuts out the middle man – which is 
> essentially what the banks are)
> 
>  
> 
> Looking at mycareer.com.au – php, java, C#, ASP.Net, SQL, Delphi are 
> listed in software programmers and engineers jobs (273 jobs for software 
> developers and engineers in Melbourne!!)– so our software list is pretty 
> good too, and there are many jobs in IT out there (almost 2000 IT & 
> telco positions in Melbourne, average salary $94,000)
> 
>  
> 
> My tuppence halfpenny worth J
> 
>  
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Ros
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> cid:image007.jpg at 01C81D4C.6EFFB170
> 
> 	
> 
> *Roslyn Meadows
> Head of ICT Implementation*
> 
> *Head of Assessment and Reporting
> Bentleigh Secondary College *
> 
> *| 9579 1044 | 0412 614 062 |*
> 
> cid:image008.jpg at 01C81D4C.6EFFB170
> 
> 	
> 
> Please consider the environment before printing this email
> 
> * *
> 
> * *
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> * *
> 
> * *
> 
> *There are three ways of being dead - heart dead, brain dead, and not 
> being able to connect to the internet!*
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au 
> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Russell Quinn
> *Sent:* Friday, 18 April 2008 3:24 PM
> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
> *Subject:* [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
> 
>  
> 
> The first thing  would be inclined to do is throw out all of the 
> networking -
> 
> which is totally irrelevant to software development (except to a small and
> 
> select few specialists) and replace it with actual software development.
> 
>  
> 
> I also think the obsession with the business models should be downplayed,
> 
> and the scenario's broadened to something far more interesting.  After 
> all, business
> 
> is just one of the reasons for writing software, and not a very 
> interesting one at that.
> 
>  
> 
> It appears that students are voting with their feet, and I can see their 
> point.
> 
> The only way to plug the leak is to make the courses software based and
> 
> interesting.
> 
>  
> 
> Russell Quinn
> 
>  
> 
> Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
> 
>  
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
> *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 12:00 PM
> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
> 
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>  
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>  
> 
>    1. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Steven Bird)
> 
>    2. RE: Industry practice - tertiary links (Selina Dennis)
> 
>    3. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>  
> 
> Message: 1
> 
> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:00:37 +1000
> 
> From: "Steven Bird" <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
> 
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
> 
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
> 
>         <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
> 
> Mes!
>  sage-ID:
> 
>       &nbs
> p; <97e4e62e0804171400q6bf98a9fq3acd059906fe980 at mail.gmail.com>
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
>  
> 
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends <timmer at melbpc.org.au> wrote:
> 
>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990 (which
> 
>>  is not necessarily a bad thing)
> 
>  
> 
> Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject.  The theory on
> 
> which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
> 
> considers that dated.
> 
>  
> 
>> but it seems to me that a couple of
> 
>> questions need  to be answered first:
> 
>>  1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12 IT course?
> 
>>&n!
>  bsp; 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for teritary, work, or both?
> 
>  
> 
> Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
> 
> preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even if
> 
> it involves no formal IT study or employment.
> 
>  
> 
> For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a degree
> 
> in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
> 
> grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
> 
> programming skills.  (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready to
> 
> scale up.)
> 
>  
> 
> -Steven
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
>  
> 
> !
> 
> Message: 2
> 
> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:09:16 +
> 1000
> 
> From: "Selina Dennis" <selina at dennis.net.au>
> 
> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
> 
> To: "'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'"
> 
>         <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
> 
> Message-ID: <003801c8a0d7$aed8dd80$0c8a9880$@net.au>
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain;      charset="us-ascii"
> 
>  
> 
> I am both a Year 12 Software Development teacher and a Computer Science
> 
> graduate - I completed my CS degree late in life, circa 2005 - and as
> 
> someone who has worked in the IT industry since 1996, I must say that I
> 
> concur with Steven Bird's view that there is a chasm between secondary
> 
> school teaching of IT and !
>  tertiary teaching of IT. For students in Year 12,
> 
> the key components of software development that they will "get the most out
> 
> of", is the theory behind algorithms, problem solving, and also the
> 
> development of their basic thinking skills. I've been teaching PHP/mySQL to
> 
> my students this year and while most have come into the course having
> 
> completed Year 10 and 11 IT, they still did not have a basic understanding
> 
> of fundamental programming concepts at the start of the year.
> 
>  
> 
> Perhaps this is more of a "theological" discussion on how to teach
> 
> programming to teenagers, but it's also relevant to note that much of the
> 
> theory that is being taught in Year 12 is rarely used or developed in either
> 
> tertiary study or in industry. One !
>  such example is diagrams - N-S Diagrams,
> 
> DFDs, et
> c have long been superseded by UML, both at a university level and
> 
> in industry - as an aside, I had never heard of NS diagrams until I had to
> 
> teach it in IPM, and I had worked with ISO-9000 compliant corporations
> 
> developing major software products.
> 
>  
> 
> Similarly, the SDLC, as Steven has raised, is most useful for large-scale
> 
> projects. Students will rarely experience the benefit, nor the relevance, of
> 
> the SDLC, in a secondary school curriculum. More useful theory would be a
> 
> more focused look at iterative design, extreme programming (or any other
> 
> kind of agile software development), etc, and move away from the excessive
> 
> documentation requirements that the SDLC brings to the table.
> 
>  
> 
> As a teacher, I would prefer to bring i!
>  n key aspects of the SDLC without
> 
> having to formally teach every part of it. For example, a concentration on
> 
> testing and debugging of software - this is a twofold benefit, as it teaches
> 
> students to be aware of how they choose to implement functionality, and also
> 
> develops their analytical and observational skills when they are debugging
> 
> an error. Bringing in Use Case Diagrams instead of DFDs would be fantastic,
> 
> also, as it conceptually allows a student to think through what they are
> 
> providing in their system before they develop it.
> 
>  
> 
> In general, however, I have to say I am currently much happier with the core
> 
> content of the Software Development course than I was with the IT:
> 
> Applications course, but I still believe that it is, at its core, dat!
>  ed and
> 
> at times irrelevant. In a perfect world, w
> e would be teaching our students
> 
> "good practice" programming while also preparing them for a future path in
> 
> IT if they so choose - both at the tertiary level and in industry.
> 
>  
> 
> </soapbox>
> 
>  
> 
> Regards,
> 
>  
> 
> Selina Dennis
> 
> Strathmore Secondary College
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
> 
> On Behalf Of Steven Bird
> 
> Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:01 AM
> 
> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
> 
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
> 
>  
> 
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Ti!
>  mmer-Arends <timmer at melbpc.org.au> wrote:
> 
>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990
> 
> (which
> 
>>  is not necessarily a bad thing)
> 
>  
> 
> Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject.  The theory on
> 
> which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
> 
> considers that dated.
> 
>  
> 
>> but it seems to me that a couple of
> 
>> questions need  to be answered first:
> 
>>  1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12 IT
> 
> course?
> 
>>  2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for teritary,
> 
> work, or both?
> 
>  
> 
> Another conceivab!
>  le answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
> 
> preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even if
> 
> it involves no formal IT study or employment.
> 
>  
> 
> For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a degree
> 
> in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
> 
> grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
> 
> programming skills.  (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready to
> 
> scale up.)
> 
>  
> 
> -Steven
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> http://www.edulists.com.au
> 
> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
> 
> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority
> 
> and
> 
> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infote!
>  ch/softwaredevel3-4.html  - VITTA
> 
> Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
>  
> 
> Message: 3
> 
> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:20:04 +1000
> 
> From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
> 
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
> 
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
> 
>         <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
> 
> Message-ID: <4807CD14.8060002 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
>  
> 
> Yes - and we have to position VCE a!
>  gainst VET, which is the more 
> 
> practical, work-or
> iented stream.
> 
>  
> 
> Frankly, I can't see SD being directly useful in providing students with 
> 
> workplace skills.  It's simply not deep enough in programming skills - 
> 
> and it could never be in the time available.  And by the time the kids 
> 
> took the tram from school to their first job, the entire IT industry 
> 
> would have had three technological revolutions in the meantime, so any 
> 
> language they learned would have been superseded.
> 
>  
> 
> I see SD as giving students a taste of the mindset of software 
> 
> development, to be developed later at uni or TAFE.
> 
>  
> 
> 2.2c worth, and falling against the Yen.
> 
>  
> 
> Timmer-Arends wrote:
> 
>> I have to say that this discu!
>  ssion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990 (which
> 
>> is not necessarily a bad thing) but it seems to me that a couple of 
> 
>> questions need  to be answered first:
> 
>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12 IT 
> 
>> course?
> 
>> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for teritary, 
> 
>> work, or both?
> 
>> 
> 
>> Regards
> 
>> Robert T-A
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Bird" <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
> 
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
> 
>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
> 
>> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:41 AM
> 
> !
>  > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links<
> o:p>
> 
>> 
> 
>> 
> 
>>> [Adrian -- thanks for picking a more appropriate subject line now that
> 
>>> discussion has moved away from data flow diagrams.]
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:28 PM, andrew barry <jagguy999 at gmail.com> 
> 
>>> wrote:
> 
>>>> I prefer to just teach an IT subject which is just programming and some
> 
>>>> programming design eg psuedo code.
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> I agree.  Students should learn how to walk before learning how to
> 
>>> run, i.e. they should be competent with "programming in-the-small"
> 
>>> before they spend much time on "programming in-the-large" (incl SDLC).
> 
>>> 
> 
>>>> Including so much theory doesn't get any student excited about learning
> 
>>>> IT
> 
>>>> at Uni. After all we are trying to promote IT beyond yr12 are we not? 
> 
>>>> Are
> 
>>>> we
> 
>>>> not trying to get more people to do it?
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> I agree with Adrian that rigour is important, and this cuts across
> 
>>> analysis, design, implementation, documentation, etc.  The SDLC is one
> 
>>> source of theory but I question its suitability at this level.  It's
> 
>>> intended for software engineering projects where you have to manage
> 
>>> whole teams of developers, client relationships, project deliverables,
> 
>>> etc.  When students a!
>  ren't already experienced at small-scale
> 
>>>
>  programming the emphasis often falls on a rather heavy document
> 
>>> process, which has to be one of the least exciting aspects of software
> 
>>> development.
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> Another issue I have with the emphasis on SDLC as a major source of
> 
>>> theoretical content is that it focusses too much on the software
> 
>>> development process.  Of course that's entirely appropriate given the
> 
>>> title of the subject, but there's some other areas of computing theory
> 
>>> that would be useful and accessible at this level, including
> 
>>> algorithmic problem solving and the limits of computing.  Here's a
> 
>>> couple of introductory books that cover these topics in a
> 
>>> non-mathematical yet rigorous and !
>  intellectually stimulating way:
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> Algorithmics: The Spirit of Computing (3rd Ed, David Harel, Addison
> 
>>> Wesley, 2004)
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> Computers Ltd: What They Really Can't Do (David Harel, Oxford
> 
>>> University Press, 2000)
> 
>>> 
> 
>>> -Steven Bird
> 
>>> http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/
> 
>>> _______________________________________________
> 
>>> http://www.edulists.com.au
> 
>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
> 
>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment 
> 
>>> Authority
> 
>>> and
> 
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/s!
>  tudies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html  -
> 
>>
> ;> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> -- 
> 
> Mark Kelly
> 
> Manager - Information Systems
> 
> McKinnon Secondary College
> 
> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
> 
> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
> 
> School Phone +613 8520 9000
> 
> School Fax +613 95789253
> 
> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> 
>  
> 
> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> 
> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
> 
> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
> 
>  
> 
> A conclusion is the place where you got sick of thinking.
> 
> If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?
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-- 
Mark Kelly
Manager - Information Systems
McKinnon Secondary College
kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253

Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List

Only those who swim against the current know the current is there.


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