[Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
Mark Kelly
kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
Sat Apr 19 11:35:41 EST 2008
Cobalt? Or COBOL?
Meadows, Roslyn M wrote:
> Programming for Web Applications? Contributing to Open Source
> Applications? Game Development?
>
>
>
> My son (2^nd year Monash IT) recently had a lecture from the top IT
> Manager of the ANZ Bank. They were told that ANZ and GE Money still use
> Cobalt!! The reason being that it is too costly to change over and that
> this system still works for them. The latest is banking via iphones and
> other mobile devices (so the SD Study Design has got that right!) -
> eventually we will not need cards to pay, just our phone - and that the
> latest thing on the internet is peer-to peer money lending (social
> lending, see www.prosper.com <http://www.prosper.com> not sure if there
> is an aussie version yet) – which the banks see as a real threat to
> their existence (as it virtually cuts out the middle man – which is
> essentially what the banks are)
>
>
>
> Looking at mycareer.com.au – php, java, C#, ASP.Net, SQL, Delphi are
> listed in software programmers and engineers jobs (273 jobs for software
> developers and engineers in Melbourne!!)– so our software list is pretty
> good too, and there are many jobs in IT out there (almost 2000 IT &
> telco positions in Melbourne, average salary $94,000)
>
>
>
> My tuppence halfpenny worth J
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Ros
>
>
>
>
>
> cid:image007.jpg at 01C81D4C.6EFFB170
>
>
>
> *Roslyn Meadows
> Head of ICT Implementation*
>
> *Head of Assessment and Reporting
> Bentleigh Secondary College *
>
> *| 9579 1044 | 0412 614 062 |*
>
> cid:image008.jpg at 01C81D4C.6EFFB170
>
>
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this email
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *There are three ways of being dead - heart dead, brain dead, and not
> being able to connect to the internet!*
>
>
>
> *From:* sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au
> [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Russell Quinn
> *Sent:* Friday, 18 April 2008 3:24 PM
> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
> *Subject:* [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
>
>
>
> The first thing would be inclined to do is throw out all of the
> networking -
>
> which is totally irrelevant to software development (except to a small and
>
> select few specialists) and replace it with actual software development.
>
>
>
> I also think the obsession with the business models should be downplayed,
>
> and the scenario's broadened to something far more interesting. After
> all, business
>
> is just one of the reasons for writing software, and not a very
> interesting one at that.
>
>
>
> It appears that students are voting with their feet, and I can see their
> point.
>
> The only way to plug the leak is to make the courses software based and
>
> interesting.
>
>
>
> Russell Quinn
>
>
>
> Mailto: qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn at boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* sofdev-request at edulists.com.au
> *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 12:00 PM
> *To:* sofdev at edulists.com.au
> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
>
>
> 1. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Steven Bird)
>
> 2. RE: Industry practice - tertiary links (Selina Dennis)
>
> 3. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Message: 1
>
> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:00:37 +1000
>
> From: "Steven Bird" <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>
> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>
> Mes!
> sage-ID:
>
> &nbs
> p; <97e4e62e0804171400q6bf98a9fq3acd059906fe980 at mail.gmail.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends <timmer at melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>
>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990 (which
>
>> is not necessarily a bad thing)
>
>
>
> Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject. The theory on
>
> which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
>
> considers that dated.
>
>
>
>> but it seems to me that a couple of
>
>> questions need to be answered first:
>
>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12 IT course?
>
>>&n!
> bsp; 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for teritary, work, or both?
>
>
>
> Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
>
> preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even if
>
> it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>
>
>
> For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a degree
>
> in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
>
> grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
>
> programming skills. (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready to
>
> scale up.)
>
>
>
> -Steven
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> !
>
> Message: 2
>
> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:09:16 +
> 1000
>
> From: "Selina Dennis" <selina at dennis.net.au>
>
> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>
> To: "'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'"
>
> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>
> Message-ID: <003801c8a0d7$aed8dd80$0c8a9880$@net.au>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
> I am both a Year 12 Software Development teacher and a Computer Science
>
> graduate - I completed my CS degree late in life, circa 2005 - and as
>
> someone who has worked in the IT industry since 1996, I must say that I
>
> concur with Steven Bird's view that there is a chasm between secondary
>
> school teaching of IT and !
> tertiary teaching of IT. For students in Year 12,
>
> the key components of software development that they will "get the most out
>
> of", is the theory behind algorithms, problem solving, and also the
>
> development of their basic thinking skills. I've been teaching PHP/mySQL to
>
> my students this year and while most have come into the course having
>
> completed Year 10 and 11 IT, they still did not have a basic understanding
>
> of fundamental programming concepts at the start of the year.
>
>
>
> Perhaps this is more of a "theological" discussion on how to teach
>
> programming to teenagers, but it's also relevant to note that much of the
>
> theory that is being taught in Year 12 is rarely used or developed in either
>
> tertiary study or in industry. One !
> such example is diagrams - N-S Diagrams,
>
> DFDs, et
> c have long been superseded by UML, both at a university level and
>
> in industry - as an aside, I had never heard of NS diagrams until I had to
>
> teach it in IPM, and I had worked with ISO-9000 compliant corporations
>
> developing major software products.
>
>
>
> Similarly, the SDLC, as Steven has raised, is most useful for large-scale
>
> projects. Students will rarely experience the benefit, nor the relevance, of
>
> the SDLC, in a secondary school curriculum. More useful theory would be a
>
> more focused look at iterative design, extreme programming (or any other
>
> kind of agile software development), etc, and move away from the excessive
>
> documentation requirements that the SDLC brings to the table.
>
>
>
> As a teacher, I would prefer to bring i!
> n key aspects of the SDLC without
>
> having to formally teach every part of it. For example, a concentration on
>
> testing and debugging of software - this is a twofold benefit, as it teaches
>
> students to be aware of how they choose to implement functionality, and also
>
> develops their analytical and observational skills when they are debugging
>
> an error. Bringing in Use Case Diagrams instead of DFDs would be fantastic,
>
> also, as it conceptually allows a student to think through what they are
>
> providing in their system before they develop it.
>
>
>
> In general, however, I have to say I am currently much happier with the core
>
> content of the Software Development course than I was with the IT:
>
> Applications course, but I still believe that it is, at its core, dat!
> ed and
>
> at times irrelevant. In a perfect world, w
> e would be teaching our students
>
> "good practice" programming while also preparing them for a future path in
>
> IT if they so choose - both at the tertiary level and in industry.
>
>
>
> </soapbox>
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Selina Dennis
>
> Strathmore Secondary College
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:sofdev-bounces at edulists.com.au]
>
> On Behalf Of Steven Bird
>
> Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:01 AM
>
> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Ti!
> mmer-Arends <timmer at melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>
>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990
>
> (which
>
>> is not necessarily a bad thing)
>
>
>
> Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject. The theory on
>
> which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
>
> considers that dated.
>
>
>
>> but it seems to me that a couple of
>
>> questions need to be answered first:
>
>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12 IT
>
> course?
>
>> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for teritary,
>
> work, or both?
>
>
>
> Another conceivab!
> le answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
>
> preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even if
>
> it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>
>
>
> For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a degree
>
> in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
>
> grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
>
> programming skills. (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready to
>
> scale up.)
>
>
>
> -Steven
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> http://www.edulists.com.au
>
> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>
> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority
>
> and
>
> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infote!
> ch/softwaredevel3-4.html - VITTA
>
> Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Message: 3
>
> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:20:04 +1000
>
> From: Mark Kelly <kel at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>
> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>
> Message-ID: <4807CD14.8060002 at mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>
>
> Yes - and we have to position VCE a!
> gainst VET, which is the more
>
> practical, work-or
> iented stream.
>
>
>
> Frankly, I can't see SD being directly useful in providing students with
>
> workplace skills. It's simply not deep enough in programming skills -
>
> and it could never be in the time available. And by the time the kids
>
> took the tram from school to their first job, the entire IT industry
>
> would have had three technological revolutions in the meantime, so any
>
> language they learned would have been superseded.
>
>
>
> I see SD as giving students a taste of the mindset of software
>
> development, to be developed later at uni or TAFE.
>
>
>
> 2.2c worth, and falling against the Yen.
>
>
>
> Timmer-Arends wrote:
>
>> I have to say that this discu!
> ssion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990 (which
>
>> is not necessarily a bad thing) but it seems to me that a couple of
>
>> questions need to be answered first:
>
>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12 IT
>
>> course?
>
>> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for teritary,
>
>> work, or both?
>
>>
>
>> Regards
>
>> Robert T-A
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Bird" <sb at csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>
>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:41 AM
>
> !
> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links<
> o:p>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>> [Adrian -- thanks for picking a more appropriate subject line now that
>
>>> discussion has moved away from data flow diagrams.]
>
>>>
>
>>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:28 PM, andrew barry <jagguy999 at gmail.com>
>
>>> wrote:
>
>>>> I prefer to just teach an IT subject which is just programming and some
>
>>>> programming design eg psuedo code.
>
>>>
>
>>> I agree. Students should learn how to walk before learning how to
>
>>> run, i.e. they should be competent with "programming in-the-small"
>
>>> before they spend much time on "programming in-the-large" (incl SDLC).
>
>>>
>
>>>> Including so much theory doesn't get any student excited about learning
>
>>>> IT
>
>>>> at Uni. After all we are trying to promote IT beyond yr12 are we not?
>
>>>> Are
>
>>>> we
>
>>>> not trying to get more people to do it?
>
>>>
>
>>> I agree with Adrian that rigour is important, and this cuts across
>
>>> analysis, design, implementation, documentation, etc. The SDLC is one
>
>>> source of theory but I question its suitability at this level. It's
>
>>> intended for software engineering projects where you have to manage
>
>>> whole teams of developers, client relationships, project deliverables,
>
>>> etc. When students a!
> ren't already experienced at small-scale
>
>>>
> programming the emphasis often falls on a rather heavy document
>
>>> process, which has to be one of the least exciting aspects of software
>
>>> development.
>
>>>
>
>>> Another issue I have with the emphasis on SDLC as a major source of
>
>>> theoretical content is that it focusses too much on the software
>
>>> development process. Of course that's entirely appropriate given the
>
>>> title of the subject, but there's some other areas of computing theory
>
>>> that would be useful and accessible at this level, including
>
>>> algorithmic problem solving and the limits of computing. Here's a
>
>>> couple of introductory books that cover these topics in a
>
>>> non-mathematical yet rigorous and !
> intellectually stimulating way:
>
>>>
>
>>> Algorithmics: The Spirit of Computing (3rd Ed, David Harel, Addison
>
>>> Wesley, 2004)
>
>>>
>
>>> Computers Ltd: What They Really Can't Do (David Harel, Oxford
>
>>> University Press, 2000)
>
>>>
>
>>> -Steven Bird
>
>>> http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>
>>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>
>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>
>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>
>>> Authority
>
>>> and
>
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/s!
> tudies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>
>>
> ;> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Mark Kelly
>
> Manager - Information Systems
>
> McKinnon Secondary College
>
> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>
> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
>
> School Phone +613 8520 9000
>
> School Fax +613 95789253
>
> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>
>
>
> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>
> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
>
> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>
>
>
> A conclusion is the place where you got sick of thinking.
>
> If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?
>
>
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>
>
>
>
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> End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
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--
Mark Kelly
Manager - Information Systems
McKinnon Secondary College
kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
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