[Year 12 SofDev] Exam discussion - Edited
Kevork Krozian
kevork at edulists.com.au
Sun Nov 18 22:37:59 EST 2007
Hi Kevin,
In that case let's meet at the racecourse over the next few days - minus
the horses :))
Take Care
Kevork Krozian
Edulists Creator and Administrator
www.edulists.com.au
kevork at edulists.com.au
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Feely" <feely.kevin.k at edumail.vic.gov.au>
To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
<sofdev at edulists.com.au>
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Exam discussion - Edited
> Hi Kevork,
> I think we both like to be precise and exacting in this field. To be not
> just logically but absolutely technically correct.
> It is interesting that coming from exactly the same theory we can adopt 2
> different points of view.
> There is no point in editing your response to show my answer - we would be
> here for hours
> It might be "fun" ,and perhaps the only satisfying way to achieve an
> outcome, to discuss it in person.
> But even after reading this i still hold the view drivers are the entity
> OR put them as part of the system then i will permit customers.
> How the commercial orders are handled was not discussed and would be
> another entity i would think
> hahahahahaha
> Kev
>
>
> Kevork Krozian wrote:
>> Hi Kevin,
>>
>> It is humbly and respectfully also that I say we are in agreement I am
>> sure.
>> Let me explain. Oh no there he goes again ..... I hear you sigh !
>>
>> ( I have to confess I am writing from home and the exam paper is not in
>> front of me so forgive any oversights )
>>
>> When constrained with only 1 remaining external entity on the context
>> diagram and there is a case for both retail and wholesale customers to
>> purchase products from the bakery, then drivers alone could not be deemed
>> to be the link between ALL orders and the system.
>>
>> Also, if the drivers were shown to do some processing such as when
>> collecting the order form and validating all data entry as then yes,
>> absolutely, there would have to be a connection between drivers and the
>> system and being INSIDE the system would not do as they have a role in a
>> sub process called "validate order". However, I didn't see such a role
>> for the drivers from my reading and when faced with one final external
>> entity to include I went for the more general order source being
>> "customer".
>>
>> Also, let me correct the "physical" process meaning. Buying flour,
>> ingredients etc is a physical process but the DFD would concern itself
>> with the "logical" aspect of these transactions. That is, " order
>> ingredients" would be the process, data flow into the process would be
>> "order details" and data flow out would be "invoice details" of the flour
>> and/or ingredients orders.
>>
>> Finally , there can't be external entity to extenal entity data flows
>> such as driver to customer unless there is a process or a file in the
>> middle of the two EEs. Therefore, the process of "place order"
>> would/could be taken by driver from customer, and then sent on to the
>> system as "order details" and so on. But , with no room in the Context
>> diagram for both customer and driver we have a problem in representing
>> this version of events. All external entities and data flows from them to
>> and from the system have to be identified at the Context diagram stage.
>>
>> I use the same book as you for DFDs Kevin, and I tell my students there
>> is more than one correct answer as long as it can be justified from the
>> story given.
>>
>> In all humility and respect
>>
>> Kevork Krozian
>> Edulists Creator and Administrator
>> www.edulists.com.au
>> kevork at edulists.com.au
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Feely"
>> <feely.kevin.k at edumail.vic.gov.au>
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>> <sofdev at edulists.com.au>
>> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 1:12 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Exam discussion - Edited
>>
>>
>>> Hi Kevork,
>>> i wish to humbly and with the deepest respect hold a different point of
>>> view
>>> i agree a DFD must strictly adhere to the principle of concerning itself
>>> with DATA and not any physical transactions, eg the bread, flour etc
>>> In this case study the drivers pass the orders into the system and
>>> receive the invoices.
>>> The transaction between the drivers and customers is another transaction
>>> entirely -and so is concerned with a different "system". IE that system
>>> would concern itself with errors, efficiency, etc between customers and
>>> drivers.
>>> If you wish to have a customer in this system as an entity i would only
>>> mark you correct if you stated that the drivers were part of the system,
>>> that is inside the bubble that is the flip flop bakery "system". If you
>>> have assumed they are then i could agree with a customer as an entity.
>>> but i think (that is me myself i) upon looking at this would have
>>> "sebastian" as the system and look at the DATA coming to and from him.
>>> kev
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kevork Krozian wrote:
>>>> Hi Kevin,
>>>>
>>>> I would expect ( IMHO ) that the missing entity has to be customers.
>>>> The drivers' role is really one of a physical one. The fact they
>>>> collect data and deliver it, deliver invoices, and deliver products is
>>>> a
>>>> physical consideration and not a logical one. How the data comes in or
>>>> is sent out is a physical consideration good for a system flowchart but
>>>> not a context diagram or DFD.
>>>> To extend the argument, the orders data could be collected via a
>>>> portable device connecting to a web server or even online by customers
>>>> by logging on to the same web site for orders. They could also print
>>>> off
>>>> receipts when they order.
>>>>
>>>> Hope that helps .
>>>> See you all on Monday .... or Tuesday .... or Wednesday at the famous
>>>> race course for the conference.....!
>>>>
>>>> Take Care
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kevork Krozian
>>>> IT Manager , Forest Hill College
>>>> k.krozian at fhc.vic.edu.au
>>>> http://www.fhc.vic.edu.au
>>>> Mobile: 0419 356 034
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> Kevin Feely <feely.kevin.k at edumail.vic.gov.au> 16/11/2007 9:51 am
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>> I have added in my response to Adrian's kick off - see below
>>>> regards
>>>> kev
>>>>
>>>> Adrian Janson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> A couple of comments:
>>>>>
>>>>> Section C, Q1.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know that there are *reasons* why the Bakers have been included
>>>>>
>>>> as
>>>>> an entity (which I don*t agree with * BTW). However, in talking
>>>>>
>>>> to my
>>>>> students, this has created some confusion regarding what the missing
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> entity should be. Many of my students felt that *Customers* would
>>>>>
>>>> have
>>>>> been the correct answer under other circumstances, however, as
>>>>> *Drivers* were also described in the case study as providing data
>>>>>
>>>> to
>>>>> the system (in a similar way to the Bakers), they felt that
>>>>>
>>>> *Drivers*
>>>>> was correct. What do others think about this?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Iam happy with Bakers as an entity - it can be justified, if I had to
>>>> mark a student who had put them in as part of the system Iam sure they
>>>>
>>>> could argue that successfully.
>>>> I would have put drivers as the missing entity. they interact with the
>>>>
>>>> system. Customers interact with the drivers so for customers to be
>>>> correct you would have to indicate that the drivers were inside the
>>>> "system" - unfortunately there is no space in the answer to show what
>>>> you regard as part of the system
>>>> BUT IMHO since the bakers were an entity it is not logical that then
>>>> the drivers would be. By putting bakers as an entity you can draw the
>>>> conclusion that sebastian is "the system"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Q3b.
>>>>>
>>>>> Using the 2D array was a good inclusion which I applaud, however, the
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> question is incorrect * and has the indexes the wrong way around!
>>>>> Kayla has decided to test 1 bread product and 3 ingredients * but
>>>>>
>>>> in
>>>>> the test data the array indexes are (1,1), (2,1) and (3,1) *
>>>>>
>>>> instead
>>>>> of (1,1), (1,2) and (1,3).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Does it not just depend on how you define your rows and columns? Yes
>>>> yours is more logical, but i can work with the way it is on the exam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Adrian
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> cheers kev
>>>> a teacher
>>>>
>>>>> **Adrian Janson, **
>>>>>
>>>>> **VITTA President***
>>>>> **Director of ICT, **
>>>>> *Melbourne High School,
>>>>>
>>>>> Forrest Hill, South Yarra 3141 Australia.
>>>>> Phone: 03 9826 0711 International: +61 3 9826 0711
>>>>> Fax: 03 9826 8767 International: +61 3 9826 8767
>>>>> E-mail: janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au
>>>>> <mailto:janson.adrian.a at edumail.vic.gov.au>
>>>>> Website: http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au
>>>>>
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