[Year 12 IT Apps] itapps Digest, Vol 117, Issue 80

Tue Nov 25 22:14:04 EST 2014

There is enough critical mass for a national education list called Oz-Teachers. It is one of the oldest running teacher mailing lists in the world and I can attest to having first enrolled in the mid 1990's. Since then it has jumped from server to server but it is the same cool gang of teachers. It is a great place to ask questions of a national audience. You can subscribe at https://groups.google.com/d/forum/ozteachers and once you have joined, just send an email to ozteachers at googlegroups.com

I think there is probably no reason to migrate this list whilst Kevork is keen to continue supporting Edulists. If anybody is interested in the community building that happened to drive this, I have a M.Ed research report that I conducted around a decade ago on the posts to the IPM and IS lists. Some of it was republished in a national journal.

—
Roland GESTHUIZEN
http://about.me/rgesthuizen

> On 25 Nov 2014, at 9:55 am, Leanne Wright <leannejwright at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Have been following this debate with interest and would like to make a few points. I understand the analogies but the concrete justification seems to be that Google+ would provide "a thriving communal environment" which is what we already have on the list. I would very much like to hear what it is about Google+  that will allow us to communicate better/more efficiently than we are now. I worry about automatically embracing something because it is new, and assuming that it will by definition be better. To use a contemporary example, I have on a couple of occasions 'updated' an app in my iPad only to realise too late that it has actually removed a feature that I already had, and is not in fact an improvement - so I think we need to consider not just whether something is newer but also whether it does the job better than what we already have. Cheers - Leanne Wright 
>  
> From: poke.michael.c at edumail.vic.gov.au <mailto:poke.michael.c at edumail.vic.gov.au>
> To: itapps at edulists.com.au <mailto:itapps at edulists.com.au>
> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 09:14:40 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] itapps Digest, Vol 117, Issue 80
> 
> Hi Mark, 
> Thanks for your eloquent and well considered reply. I acknowledge your wisdom and experience. Thanks too for graciously acknowledging my pure motives. As much as it sounds to the contrary, I am not wanting to break up or split the existing community. If anything, and to use my own analogy, I want to give the existing community the opportunity to "play outside" rather than just be content to sit inside in front of the old black and white telly. Outside there are playgrounds, and other kids and bikes and roads and parks and tree houses. We can all still play together. Everyone's invited to come outside to play. And that's not to say that we can't come inside at the end of each day to the comfort of the well worn couch and familiar glow of the tube. 
> Incidentally Google+ is a thriving communal environment with so much to offer. I really like the community established here on the emails.  It has its own benefits. I just want to try do my bit to help those teaching IT to the next generation to stay relevant. As a teacher of 12 years experience, having recently moved to a young college with a number of younger IT teachers, I'm only now starting to feel myself slipping out of touch with certain aspects of the very subject area I teach. So I am not looking down on those who've been here a while either. 
> By the way, Mark. I am a huge fan of your work. I've utilised your website for a number of years now. I'm always pointing my students to your website...  Some students think I have a man-crush on you (the things kids say!!). Rest assured, though it's not the case.  :) 
> Enough rambling. 
> Regards, 
> Michael Poke 
> Manor Lakes P-12 College 
> On 24 Nov 2014 16:26, "itapps-request at edulists.com.au <mailto:itapps-request at edulists.com.au>" <itapps-request at edulists.com.au <mailto:itapps-request at edulists.com.au>> wrote:
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> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: NEW Google+ Community for ITA Teachers (Mark)
>    2. Re: NEW Google+ Community for ITA Teachers (John Schwartz)
>    3. Re: NEW Google+ Community for ITA Teachers (WEIR Andrew)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 15:35:59 +1100
> From: Mark <mark at vceit.com <mailto:mark at vceit.com>>
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] NEW Google+ Community for ITA Teachers
> To: "Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List"
>         <itapps at edulists.com.au <mailto:itapps at edulists.com.au>>
> Message-ID:
>         <CACu=8Z1sVkR1tpoKbFttw0UWaFo=LFBTiPA05_YG11=_oe5pbQ at mail.gmail.com <mailto:CACu=8Z1sVkR1tpoKbFttw0UWaFo=LFBTiPA05_YG11=_oe5pbQ at mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Hi Michael. I understand your logic perfectly, and I have also - in other
> online arenas - created *fantastically* sensible and *logical* and
> *brilliantly* functional new forums for discussion... which *never*
> succeeded.
> 
> A community is not its technology. It's the people, and convincing a group
> of contented people to make a major shift is always a big ask - even if the
> rewards are manifold and clear.
> 
> I think even Kevork would acknowledge the technical constraints of the
> Edulists platform, but we all would acknowledge the authority, comfort,
> reliability, familiarity and service that his lists have deservedly
> accumulated over many years of faithful service.
> 
> The spouse might be getting a bit wrinkled, tubby in the middle, and hard
> to get out of the car at times, but you still love the dear thing and enjoy
> playing bingo together on Fridays. You don't dump said spouse by the
> roadside when a shiny new forum rolls up and invites you to get in. Even if
> it's *really* sexy.
> 
> (Sorry Kevork, That analogy got a bit lost... Your Edulists are certainly
> *not* tubby.)
> 
> No technology is perfect, but it will be just as hard to get Edulist people
> to move platforms as it is to dislodge a snug and happy cat off your lap.
> History shows that without a manifestly and unarguably superior argument,
> proposals to split *any* forum tend to stagnate and fail.
> Why else do Yahoo Groups and the QWERTY keyboard still exist?
> 
> As a former long-time admin at alt.config - which tried to regulate the
> creation of new alt.* Usenet groups - I can attest to the old wisdom: if
> you want to split, you need the permission of the community... or
> sufficiently distinguish your new group from the old one to justify its
> existence. Mere duplication of the existing group is not enough - most
> regulars are perfectly happy where they are.
> Like most divorces, successful splits usually follow protracted arguments
> and complaints about the status quo. And even then, the complainers choose
> to persist for a while in their misery.
> 'Cos change is scary.
> 
> Again, Michael, I fully understand your motivation, and welcome your
> initiative. Let's see how it goes.
> Build the new community. Prove its benefits to the herd.
> Of course if you could bring Kevork with you, the whole issue would be
> settled by tomorrow... we faithful hounds follow our master.
> 
> Woof !
> 
> Regards
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> On 24 November 2014 at 12:16, Poke, Michael C <
> poke.michael.c at edumail.vic.gov.au <mailto:poke.michael.c at edumail.vic.gov.au>> wrote:
> 
> >  Hi all,
> > While I enjoy this mailing list, I strongly believe that as IT teachers we
> > could be better served by taking our conversations to a more modern and
> > user friendly medium. After all, isn?t that what we teach our students to
> > do?  For this reason, I?ve created a Google+ Community specifically for us
> > ITA teachers. If you are unaware, Google+ is an amazing place for finding
> > and connecting to vibrant, relevant communities about your interests and
> > pursuits. Where Google+ fails as a social networking site, it succeeds in
> > creating energetic, well utilised ?Communities?.
> >
> >  *You can find your new ITA Teachers? Community at: *
> > https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/104249627663280730813 <https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/104249627663280730813>
> >
> >  I look forward to connecting with you there.
> >
> >  Cheers,
> > Michael Poke
> > Manor Lakes P-12 College
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> 
> Mark Kelly
> mark AT vceit DOT com
> http://vceit.com <http://vceit.com/>
> 
> *I enjoy non-sequiturs because... cows.*
> 
> I, Mark Kelly, am entirely responsible for the rambling verbiage I spew
> forth.
> I'm not sure whom I have offended with this post. Cats, cows, canines,
> Kevork?
> If offended, please whinge to me at the email address above.
> Please leave poor Kevork alone.  It is not his fault.
> -------------- next part --------------
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 16:02:28 +1100
> From: John Schwartz <schwartz at melbpc.org.au <mailto:schwartz at melbpc.org.au>>
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] NEW Google+ Community for ITA Teachers
> To: "'Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List'"
>         <itapps at edulists.com.au <mailto:itapps at edulists.com.au>>
> Message-ID: <BLU436-SMTP15780DEF7928F3C07705E4D93720 at phx.gbl <mailto:BLU436-SMTP15780DEF7928F3C07705E4D93720 at phx.gbl>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Michael
> 
>  
> 
> I am willing to give it a try but am concerned about the store of great stuff in the archives of the current list and that the group not become split into two groups. I?m afraid it has to be all or nothing to be truly useful. Kevork?s list has set a very high standard which will be difficult to match.
> 
>  
> 
> John Schwartz
> 
> Semi-retired
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: itapps-bounces at edulists.com.au <mailto:itapps-bounces at edulists.com.au> [mailto:itapps-bounces at edulists.com.au <mailto:itapps-bounces at edulists.com.au>] On Behalf Of Mark
> Sent: Monday, 24 November 2014 3:36 PM
> To: Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] NEW Google+ Community for ITA Teachers
> 
>  
> 
> Hi Michael. I understand your logic perfectly, and I have also - in other online arenas - created fantastically sensible and logical and brilliantly functional new forums for discussion... which never succeeded.
> 
>  
> 
> A community is not its technology. It's the people, and convincing a group of contented people to make a major shift is always a big ask - even if the rewards are manifold and clear.
> 
>  
> 
> I think even Kevork would acknowledge the technical constraints of the Edulists platform, but we all would acknowledge the authority, comfort, reliability, familiarity and service that his lists have deservedly accumulated over many years of faithful service.
> 
>  
> 
> The spouse might be getting a bit wrinkled, tubby in the middle, and hard to get out of the car at times, but you still love the dear thing and enjoy playing bingo together on Fridays. You don't dump said spouse by the roadside when a shiny new forum rolls up and invites you to get in. Even if it's really sexy.
> 
>  
> 
> (Sorry Kevork, That analogy got a bit lost... Your Edulists are certainly not tubby.)
> 
>  
> 
> No technology is perfect, but it will be just as hard to get Edulist people to move platforms as it is to dislodge a snug and happy cat off your lap.
> 
> History shows that without a manifestly and unarguably superior argument, proposals to split any forum tend to stagnate and fail. 
> 
> Why else do Yahoo Groups and the QWERTY keyboard still exist? 
> 
>  
> 
> As a former long-time admin at alt.config - which tried to regulate the creation of new alt.* Usenet groups - I can attest to the old wisdom: if you want to split, you need the permission of the community... or sufficiently distinguish your new group from the old one to justify its existence. Mere duplication of the existing group is not enough - most regulars are perfectly happy where they are. 
> 
> Like most divorces, successful splits usually follow protracted arguments and complaints about the status quo. And even then, the complainers choose to persist for a while in their misery.
> 
> 'Cos change is scary.
> 
>  
> 
> Again, Michael, I fully understand your motivation, and welcome your initiative. Let's see how it goes. 
> 
> Build the new community. Prove its benefits to the herd.
> 
> Of course if you could bring Kevork with you, the whole issue would be settled by tomorrow... we faithful hounds follow our master.
> 
>  
> 
> Woof !
> 
>  
> 
> Regards
> 
> Mark
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> On 24 November 2014 at 12:16, Poke, Michael C <poke.michael.c at edumail.vic.gov.au <mailto:poke.michael.c at edumail.vic.gov.au>> wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> While I enjoy this mailing list, I strongly believe that as IT teachers we could be better served by taking our conversations to a more modern and user friendly medium. After all, isn?t that what we teach our students to do?  For this reason, I?ve created a Google+ Community specifically for us ITA teachers. If you are unaware, Google+ is an amazing place for finding and connecting to vibrant, relevant communities about your interests and pursuits. Where Google+ fails as a social networking site, it succeeds in creating energetic, well utilised ?Communities?.  
> 
>  
> 
> You can find your new ITA Teachers? Community at: https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/104249627663280730813 <https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/104249627663280730813>
> 
>  
> 
> I look forward to connecting with you there.
> 
>  
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Michael Poke
> 
> Manor Lakes P-12 College
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> -- 
> 
>  
> 
> Mark Kelly
> 
> mark AT vceit DOT com
> 
> http://vceit.com <http://vceit.com/>
> 
>  
> 
> I enjoy non-sequiturs because... cows.
> 
>  
> 
> I, Mark Kelly, am entirely responsible for the rambling verbiage I spew forth.
> 
> I'm not sure whom I have offended with this post. Cats, cows, canines, Kevork?
> 
> If offended, please whinge to me at the email address above. 
> 
> Please leave poor Kevork alone.  It is not his fault.
> 
> -------------- next part --------------
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 05:25:37 +0000
> From: WEIR Andrew <andrew.weir at thomascarr.vic.edu.au <mailto:andrew.weir at thomascarr.vic.edu.au>>
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] NEW Google+ Community for ITA Teachers
> To: "Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List"
>         <itapps at edulists.com.au <mailto:itapps at edulists.com.au>>
> Message-ID:
>         <3747C86055DEEB4BA278E51C12179516AFC0BFB5 at NewEX.administration.local <mailto:3747C86055DEEB4BA278E51C12179516AFC0BFB5 at NewEX.administration.local>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Sorry all this is not a vote either way but just a thought that we are probably all having.
> I think in the end we need to keep this discussion for the students as a relevant example for u301.
> 
> Mark raises relevant points that also align with the study design and questions of suitability.
> I use a number of Forums and they range from whirlpool and the 1000?s of users to a forum of 100 on cooking BBQ.
> On the same note I have many other social media and Social networking tools like G+, Myspace, Yammer that work for the audience I work with.
> 
> Happy to look either way and will add this new one to my resource pool or should I say resource Ocean.
> 
> 
> [Description: Description: new tcc logo]
> 
> Mr Andrew Weir
> Head Of Learning - eLearning
> 
> 
> 
> From: itapps-bounces at edulists.com.au <mailto:itapps-bounces at edulists.com.au> [mailto:itapps-bounces at edulists.com.au <mailto:itapps-bounces at edulists.com.au>] On Behalf Of John Schwartz
> Sent: Monday, 24 November 2014 4:10 PM
> To: 'Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List'
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] NEW Google+ Community for ITA Teachers
> 
> Michael
> 
> I am willing to give it a try but am concerned about the store of great stuff in the archives of the current list and that the group not become split into two groups. I?m afraid it has to be all or nothing to be truly useful. Kevork?s list has set a very high standard which will be difficult to match.
> 
> John Schwartz
> Semi-retired
> 
> 
> From: itapps-bounces at edulists.com.au <mailto:itapps-bounces at edulists.com.au><mailto:itapps-bounces at edulists.com.au <mailto:itapps-bounces at edulists.com.au>> [mailto:itapps-bounces at edulists.com.au <mailto:itapps-bounces at edulists.com.au>] On Behalf Of Mark
> Sent: Monday, 24 November 2014 3:36 PM
> To: Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] NEW Google+ Community for ITA Teachers
> 
> Hi Michael. I understand your logic perfectly, and I have also - in other online arenas - created fantastically sensible and logical and brilliantly functional new forums for discussion... which never succeeded.
> 
> A community is not its technology. It's the people, and convincing a group of contented people to make a major shift is always a big ask - even if the rewards are manifold and clear.
> 
> I think even Kevork would acknowledge the technical constraints of the Edulists platform, but we all would acknowledge the authority, comfort, reliability, familiarity and service that his lists have deservedly accumulated over many years of faithful service.
> 
> The spouse might be getting a bit wrinkled, tubby in the middle, and hard to get out of the car at times, but you still love the dear thing and enjoy playing bingo together on Fridays. You don't dump said spouse by the roadside when a shiny new forum rolls up and invites you to get in. Even if it's really sexy.
> 
> (Sorry Kevork, That analogy got a bit lost... Your Edulists are certainly not tubby.)
> 
> No technology is perfect, but it will be just as hard to get Edulist people to move platforms as it is to dislodge a snug and happy cat off your lap.
> History shows that without a manifestly and unarguably superior argument, proposals to split any forum tend to stagnate and fail.
> Why else do Yahoo Groups and the QWERTY keyboard still exist?
> 
> As a former long-time admin at alt.config - which tried to regulate the creation of new alt.* Usenet groups - I can attest to the old wisdom: if you want to split, you need the permission of the community... or sufficiently distinguish your new group from the old one to justify its existence. Mere duplication of the existing group is not enough - most regulars are perfectly happy where they are.
> Like most divorces, successful splits usually follow protracted arguments and complaints about the status quo. And even then, the complainers choose to persist for a while in their misery.
> 'Cos change is scary.
> 
> Again, Michael, I fully understand your motivation, and welcome your initiative. Let's see how it goes.
> Build the new community. Prove its benefits to the herd.
> Of course if you could bring Kevork with you, the whole issue would be settled by tomorrow... we faithful hounds follow our master.
> 
> Woof !
> 
> Regards
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> On 24 November 2014 at 12:16, Poke, Michael C <poke.michael.c at edumail.vic.gov.au <mailto:poke.michael.c at edumail.vic.gov.au><mailto:poke.michael.c at edumail.vic.gov.au <mailto:poke.michael.c at edumail.vic.gov.au>>> wrote:
> Hi all,
> While I enjoy this mailing list, I strongly believe that as IT teachers we could be better served by taking our conversations to a more modern and user friendly medium. After all, isn?t that what we teach our students to do?  For this reason, I?ve created a Google+ Community specifically for us ITA teachers. If you are unaware, Google+ is an amazing place for finding and connecting to vibrant, relevant communities about your interests and pursuits. Where Google+ fails as a social networking site, it succeeds in creating energetic, well utilised ?Communities?.
> 
> You can find your new ITA Teachers? Community at: https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/104249627663280730813 <https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/104249627663280730813>
> 
> I look forward to connecting with you there.
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael Poke
> Manor Lakes P-12 College
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Mark Kelly
> mark AT vceit DOT com
> http://vceit.com <http://vceit.com/>
> 
> I enjoy non-sequiturs because... cows.
> 
> I, Mark Kelly, am entirely responsible for the rambling verbiage I spew forth.
> I'm not sure whom I have offended with this post. Cats, cows, canines, Kevork?
> If offended, please whinge to me at the email address above.
> Please leave poor Kevork alone.  It is not his fault.
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> 
> End of itapps Digest, Vol 117, Issue 80
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