[Year 12 IT Apps] comment about Informatics

Pearse, Steven S pearse.steven.s at edumail.vic.gov.au
Wed May 14 10:56:24 EST 2014 

In response to Roland about keeping the course "relevant to the real world" I would like to bring everyone's attention to:

Is there a space for:

CSS and web design?
PHP or some web based equivalent? 
Phone Apps? 
Security?
Spyware and virus protection?
How to load an operating system?
Computer Hardware?

Although I know that I might get slammed by some VET teachers and quite rightly so, but  I do believe that a student that finishes year 12 IT and can't even explain why his "computer is slow" or can't download and install some decent/free spyware applications and learn how to use them is criminal.  Some of my students towards the end of last year were asking about buying a computer and couldn't understand what the hell the guy in the computer shop was talking about! How can this be when they are completing a top level IT course? The removal of the year 11 IT hardware section from the previous to current SD was very disappointing, instead they have brought back PERT and Gantt charts for the new one...  People may say - students who want to learn about hardware can choose VET IT, but unfortunately for some students and schools that just isn't an option. Now if a student was to go home and help fix their slow parents computers - how real world would that be!  How many of our students can troubleshoot their own internet connection before calling tech support? Maybe VCAA think that our teachers can't...
How many IT teachers can do this? 

 A simple exam question could be
Your internet has stopped working after you go home from work, provide a procedure for determining the problem. A problem that would happen to most department staff members.

More real world things:  CSS - why aren't we putting a few questions on exams about CSS??? It is pivotal if you are making a website nowadays. I assume that students can choose to use websites in their SAT? 

I do agree somewhat about letting the students and teachers choose their own applications, and for teachers selling the subject it means that you can use Photoshop, Adobe Premiere(if your school can afford it), and other more interesting ways to display information. Whether teachers will utilize this is very much up for discussion.   

I had a quick look at the NSW course. It looks so much more interesting(not only to teach) and if I was a student again that lived in Wodonga, I would be trying to cross the border to do IT in NSW. 

This proposed SD seems to sit with the vision of "lets empower our students by showing them how to be independent learners". Give me a break... well... I agree... sort of.. I think that problem solving skills are just as if not more important than data analysis skills.  

 Are we going to start teaching and testing database properly in exams? By actually asking exam questions about associative tables and databases that have more than 3 tables?  When was the last time we had a question about a many to many relationship? Take question 9 from 2012 and add a car table to the database....

There has been a lot of activity on this list about 1NF - etc. Why haven't the VCAA published the rules we are to follow? Why don't the exam questions have something on DB that is meaningful? Are DB that difficult for us to teach and for students to understand? If so - should we scrap them completely and just use excel? Maybe it can be put into SD??


Steve Pearse
(NWSC P-12)


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   1. Re: itapps Digest, Vol 111, Issue 13 (Roland Gesthuizen)


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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 09:14:37 +1000
From: Roland Gesthuizen <rgesthuizen at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] itapps Digest, Vol 111, Issue 13
To: eLearning mailing list <itapps at edulists.com.au>
Message-ID: <5073A7E9-D1F0-4C87-B22A-43D191E93ABA at gmail.com>
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Nobody likes falling enrolments. I don't think we need cheap magnets to pick up students, we need real-world relevance. My concerns about changes mooted by some are that they water down the rigour and turn ITA into a offering that has more in common with a VET course than a VCE subject. 

When we consider how we describe our subject as information management or problem solving you can spot the irony. I do think that we can do more to better prepare students to better plan and manage their projects instead of ticking off application skills and grinding through questions. The balance looks better now. 

Regards Roland

Roland GESTHUIZEN
http://about.me/rgesthuizen

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed it is the only thing that ever has." --Margaret Mead

On 13 May 2014, at 10:25 am, Elliott, Matthew M <elliott.matthew.m at edumail.vic.gov.au> wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> Some good feedback from Maggie and Andrew that has opened my eyes to the possibilities of the study somewhat. 
> 
> I still feel that more direction and clarity would be beneficial for the students that have been picking this subject at my school but I can see what you are getting at. Everyone has different cohorts, I do have a couple of students that could handle the type of tasks you describe (the technology is not always the issue, the organisation is) but others would be swimming in it.
> 
> I love testing this sort of stuff out in Unit 1 and 2 but I am concerned that the stresses of Unit 3 and 4 (where the students have other subjects to be concerned about) make the front-loaded timed tasks more achievable. The good thing about projects is that students can explore and go as far as they want to with ideas. That could become a problem without very clear parameters in a time poor Year 12 environment. Even the website task can be frustrating as students fuss about with banners and tricks rather than focusing on the design brief. Still it's our job to get them past that I guess!
> 
> Just my thoughts, as always.
> 
> Matt Elliott
> e-Learning Development Coordinator
> Red Cliffs Secondary College
> 0402 677 426
> elearnatreddy.edublogs.org
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
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> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. comment about Informatics (Margaret Iaquinto)
>   2. Re: itapps Digest, Vol 111, Issue 10 (Mark)
>   3. Re: comment about Informatics (Mark)
>   4. Re: comment about Informatics (Andrew Shortell)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 07:31:51 +1000
> From: Margaret Iaquinto <iaquinto at ozemail.com.au>
> Subject: [Year 12 IT Apps] comment about Informatics
> To: IT Apps <itapps at edulists.com.au>
> Message-ID: <53713DC7.4070907 at ozemail.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> OK, Mark, here's another opinion. I'm not sure why you think the new Informatics subject will require us to teach database for most of the year. And you say that students loathe database. My students see the value of database and the power of queries with respect to issues such as data mining and privacy rights. Energising.
> 
> You have written that 3 of the 4 Outcomes will be on database. Well, the first Outcome is required to use database. But not the other. The next part is a SAT which is much, much different from Outcomes.
> 
> It's exciting because students can do research and find a hypothesis and then work out, with the data collected,  whether it is wrong or right. 
> To present all the findings, a wide range of software tools can be used. 
> I would certainly be teaching spreadsheets to crunch numbers. My students would be learning how to deal with quantitative data AND qualitative data. Some students will be using software I do not know how to use but they have learned from their other subjects. This is much different from anything we have had in the past.
> 
> And I know what you tend to do when folks present an opinion which is different from yours: you slam it vigorously in this public forum. There are times when I enjoy reading your bombast because it cloaks the truth especially when it comes to dissecting final examinations. But to be hung out and dried is no fun. Debate, however, is beneficial. Perhaps this is why folks are mute.  And so I expect you to comment on this post and reduce it to worthlessness with low-level analogies such as unwrapping condoms. And you will poke further fun because I have chosen the wrong verb or misused a semicolon.
> 
> Back to the SAT. Not only will I be teaching spreadsheets but perhaps 
> also Photoshop when my students gather primary evidence to support or 
> deny their hypotheses. Most likely I will also be teaching HTML5 and
> CSS3 to write forms and to present findings. Some teachers may choose many data visualisation tools to examine the data and to present the information.
> 
> *No long lists of restricted tools and functions. At last!!! Now that 
> is exciting. *
> 
> Maggie Iaquinto
> Teacher, Yeshivah College
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
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> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 09:04:07 +1000
> From: Mark <mark at vceit.com>
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] itapps Digest, Vol 111, Issue 10
> To: "Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List"
> 	<itapps at edulists.com.au>
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> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> On 12 May 2014 18:25, Elliott, Matthew M < elliott.matthew.m at edumail.vic.gov.au> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I am confused by the chisel and condoms line but I'll let it through 
>> to the keeper this time.
>> 
>> 
> Sorry to confuse you, Matthew. It was a throwback to the line about
> 
> "- You will be teaching *Woodwork*. Or two *Year 9 Health* classes instead."
> 
> :-)
> 
> --
> 
> Mark Kelly
> mark AT vceit DOT com
> http://vceit.com
> 
> *Everything that used to be a sin is now a disease - Bill Maher *
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> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 09:23:05 +1000
> From: Mark <mark at vceit.com>
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] comment about Informatics
> To: "Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List"
> 	<itapps at edulists.com.au>
> Message-ID:
> 	<CACu=8Z2jpY+jmkRvogG=td6JejdRH421WDsr-063MMmmQvzEiQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Hi Maggie.
> 
> I don't want to mislead people.
> 
> No, the SAT does not mandate databases, but the real choice is going to have to be them or spreadsheets.
> I didn't think spreadsheets would have the depth to accomplish the sort of data manipulation required for the SAT, but if teachers get into meatier spreadsheet tools beyond VLOOKUP (e.g. pivot tables and array functions) then I agree that databases would not be necessary.
> 
> I am heartened that your students would be cheered by the new course. I can only comment from the experiences I had with my ITA cohorts - and they likely would have been troubled by the complexity of the SAT. I think the SAT will require quite a different lead-up than we are used to.
> 
> Apologies if I have misled people.
> 
> 
> 
> On 13 May 2014 07:31, Margaret Iaquinto <iaquinto at ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> 
>> OK, Mark, here's another opinion. I'm not sure why you think the new 
>> Informatics subject will require us to teach database for most of the year.
>> And you say that students loathe database. My students see the value 
>> of database and the power of queries with respect to issues such as 
>> data mining and privacy rights. Energising.
>> 
>> You have written that 3 of the 4 Outcomes will be on database. Well, 
>> the first Outcome is required to use database. But not the other. The 
>> next part is a SAT which is much, much different from Outcomes.
>> 
>> It's exciting because students can do research and find a hypothesis 
>> and then work out, with the data collected,  whether it is wrong or 
>> right. To present all the findings, a wide range of software tools 
>> can be used. I would certainly be teaching spreadsheets to crunch numbers.
>> My students would be learning how to deal with quantitative data AND qualitative data.
>> Some students will be using software I do not know how to use but 
>> they have learned from their other subjects. This is much different 
>> from anything we have had in the past.
>> 
>> And I know what you tend to do when folks present an opinion which is 
>> different from yours: you slam it vigorously in this public forum.
>> There are times when I enjoy reading your bombast because it cloaks 
>> the truth especially when it comes to dissecting final examinations.
>> But to be hung out and dried is no fun. Debate, however, is 
>> beneficial. Perhaps this is why folks are mute.  And so I expect you 
>> to comment on this post and reduce it to worthlessness with low-level analogies such as  unwrapping condoms.
>> And you will poke further fun because I have chosen the wrong verb or 
>> misused a semicolon.
>> 
>> Back to the SAT. Not only will I be teaching spreadsheets but perhaps 
>> also Photoshop when my students gather primary evidence to support or 
>> deny their hypotheses. Most likely I will also be teaching HTML5 and
>> CSS3 to write forms and to present findings. Some teachers may choose 
>> many data visualisation tools to examine the data and to present the information.
>> 
>> *No long lists of restricted tools and functions. At last!!! Now that 
>> is exciting. *
>> 
>> Maggie Iaquinto
>> Teacher, Yeshivah College
>> 
>> --
> 
> Mark Kelly
> mark AT vceit DOT com
> http://vceit.com
> 
> *Everything that used to be a sin is now a disease - Bill Maher *
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 13 May 2014 10:05:15 +1000
> From: Andrew Shortell <shortell at get2me.net>
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] comment about Informatics
> To: "Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List"
> 	<itapps at edulists.com.au>
> Message-ID: <EA6C6866-30EC-4C7C-B76E-2050FACDBD70 at get2me.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> Hi Mark
> 
> It would also be good if you reminded people who are responding to put in their response that they should be agitating for a subject that just teaches ordinary office skills for ordinary office jobs.
> 
> The sort of subject that you and I might call Business computing or business office skills ( a bit like the old shorthand courses and typing courses of yesteryear) and would be run as  VET subject because it is only about developing some competency in doing things like word processing and spreadsheets and low end web pages. No intellectual challenges and no interest in encouraging further study in computing, just something to give them some basic skills as per your other post.
> 
> For the next few years we will still need some people who can do this before we finish outsourcing all those low end monotonous tedious mind numbingly repetitive tautological doubling up jobs to the people who are willing to work hard and challenge them selves in some of the third world developing countries. 
> As the career teachers keep telling our students, they will have a number of careers in their lives and the most important thing that they can do to help themselves is to learn how to learn new skills. Our job surely is to help them to develop intellectually so that they can improve themselves.
> 
> Off my soap box and back to the exciting NAPLAN
> 
> and then off to teach seniors how to think about computing. Luckily I don't have to teach office skills.
> 
> Andrew
> 
> Andrew Shortell
> Educator
> CRC Melton
> 
> 
> shortell at get2me.net (This List)
> @acsbear8 (twitter)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 13/05/2014, at 9:23 AM, Mark <mark at vceit.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Maggie. 
>> 
>> I don't want to mislead people. 
>> 
>> No, the SAT does not mandate databases, but the real choice is going to have to be them or spreadsheets. 
>> I didn't think spreadsheets would have the depth to accomplish the sort of data manipulation required for the SAT, but if teachers get into meatier spreadsheet tools beyond VLOOKUP (e.g. pivot tables and array functions) then I agree that databases would not be necessary.
>> 
>> I am heartened that your students would be cheered by the new course. I can only comment from the experiences I had with my ITA cohorts - and they likely would have been troubled by the complexity of the SAT. I think the SAT will require quite a different lead-up than we are used to.
>> 
>> Apologies if I have misled people.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 13 May 2014 07:31, Margaret Iaquinto <iaquinto at ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>> OK, Mark, here's another opinion. I'm not sure why you think the new Informatics subject will require us to teach database for most of the year. And you say that students loathe database. My students see the value of database and the power of queries with respect to issues such as data mining and privacy rights. Energising.
>> 
>> You have written that 3 of the 4 Outcomes will be on database. Well, the first Outcome is required to use database. But not the other. The next part is a SAT which is much, much different from Outcomes. 
>> 
>> It's exciting because students can do research and find a hypothesis and then work out, with the data collected,  whether it is wrong or right. To present all the findings, a wide range of software tools can be used. I would certainly be teaching spreadsheets to crunch numbers. My students would be learning how to deal with quantitative data AND qualitative data. Some students will be using software I do not know how to use but they have learned from their other subjects. This is much different from anything we have had in the past. 
>> 
>> And I know what you tend to do when folks present an opinion which is different from yours: you slam it vigorously in this public forum. There are times when I enjoy reading your bombast because it cloaks the truth especially when it comes to dissecting final examinations. But to be hung out and dried is no fun. Debate, however, is beneficial. Perhaps this is why folks are mute.  And so I expect you to comment on this post and reduce it to worthlessness with low-level analogies such as  unwrapping condoms. And you will poke further fun because I have chosen the wrong verb or misused a semicolon.
>> 
>> Back to the SAT. Not only will I be teaching spreadsheets but perhaps also Photoshop when my students gather primary evidence to support or deny their hypotheses. Most likely I will also be teaching HTML5 and CSS3 to write forms and to present findings. Some teachers may choose many data visualisation tools to examine the data and to present the information. 
>> 
>> No long lists of restricted tools and functions. At last!!! Now that is exciting. 
>> 
>> Maggie Iaquinto
>> Teacher, Yeshivah College
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Mark Kelly
>> mark AT vceit DOT com
>> http://vceit.com
>> 
>> Everything that used to be a sin is now a disease - Bill Maher
>> 
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>> - Swinburne University
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