[Year 12 IT Apps] itapps Digest, Vol 111, Issue 11
Vera Cook
vcook at mscw.vic.edu.au
Tue May 13 13:41:30 EST 2014
I agree, I have found that my students struggle with some parts of normalisation and especially find it difficult to fill in information into major database tasks if its not given to them they believe it is not there for example trying to use names as primary keys.
Thanks Vera
From: itapps-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:itapps-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Benn POLLOCK
Sent: Tuesday, 13 May 2014 12:36 PM
To: itapps at edulists.com.au
Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] itapps Digest, Vol 111, Issue 11
I to am not to crash hot on the proposed changes to ITA. The increase of the database component just seems like it will drive more kids away from the subject. I've had a steady stream of 15-18 students for the past 3 years in ITA. I can see the class being close to not running once students become aware of the proposed changes to be made to the subject. I agree 100% with your comments Mark. ITA (or IPM when I completed it in school) was chosen by kids who liked/enjoyed using and playing around with computers and that can be seen in my current Years 10 and 11 classes. The more hardcore students would choose SD or find another subject that catered for their thirst for challenging subject content. The students that choose IT these days are kids who like I.T because they play games on their computer at home.. Or because they think "Ahh I.T... That can't be too hard.. I'll do it". Like other teachers who posted on here before, I'm finding that my students are still struggling at the concept of normalisation (3NF in particular). I believe that an increase in the use of databases in "Informatics" (ewwwww) will drive students away from picking up the subject, or see them drop out of the subject mid-year because it's just too damn confusing for them.
On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 6:32 PM, <itapps-request at edulists.com.au<mailto:itapps-request at edulists.com.au>> wrote:
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1. Re: itapps Digest, Vol 111, Issue 10 (Elliott, Matthew M)
2. Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Fwd: The draft study design is on the
table! (Hawkins, Sean P)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 08:25:23 +0000
From: "Elliott, Matthew M" <elliott.matthew.m at edumail.vic.gov.au<mailto:elliott.matthew.m at edumail.vic.gov.au>>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] itapps Digest, Vol 111, Issue 10
To: "itapps at edulists.com.au<mailto:itapps at edulists.com.au>" <itapps at edulists.com.au<mailto:itapps at edulists.com.au>>
Message-ID:
<C70C68752AB18946AA81BADD921A4BAC407FA07B at EDUMBX05.education.vic.gov.au<mailto:C70C68752AB18946AA81BADD921A4BAC407FA07B at EDUMBX05.education.vic.gov.au>>
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Mark,
I agree with everything you said.
I am confused by the chisel and condoms line but I'll let it through to the keeper this time.
I have completed the survey with similar feedback but less creative prose.
Thanks for all the resources you share. I used the Normalisation PowerPoint and it worked a treat.
Matt
________________________________________
From: itapps-bounces at edulists.com.au<mailto:itapps-bounces at edulists.com.au> [itapps-bounces at edulists.com.au<mailto:itapps-bounces at edulists.com.au>] on behalf of itapps-request at edulists.com.au<mailto:itapps-request at edulists.com.au> [itapps-request at edulists.com.au<mailto:itapps-request at edulists.com.au>]
Sent: Monday, 12 May 2014 5:48 PM
To: itapps at edulists.com.au<mailto:itapps at edulists.com.au>
Subject: itapps Digest, Vol 111, Issue 10
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1. Fwd: The draft study design is on the table! (Mark)
2. Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Fwd: The draft study design is on the
table! (Mark)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 16:20:39 +1000
From: Mark <mark at vceit.com<mailto:mark at vceit.com>>
Subject: [Year 12 IT Apps] Fwd: The draft study design is on the
table!
To: "Year 11 Information Technology Teachers' Mailing List"
<yr11it at edulists.com.au<mailto:yr11it at edulists.com.au>>, "Year 12 Software Development Teachers'
Mailing List" <sofdev at edulists.com.au<mailto:sofdev at edulists.com.au>>, "Year 12 IT Applications
Teachers' Mailing List" <itapps at edulists.com.au<mailto:itapps at edulists.com.au>>
Message-ID:
<CACu=8Z0km=AS=VYA5MamGowZBsENbV_JcAg9iEu1PUqr6Xvr5w at mail.gmail.com<mailto:VYA5MamGowZBsENbV_JcAg9iEu1PUqr6Xvr5w at mail.gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Psst. Hey, you. Yes, you. The IT teacher.
But mainly *you* - the *ITA* teacher.
Remember that *feedback on the draft IT study design* stops on *17 May*.
See below for quick links.
Five days to go.
If you teach *ITA* and you love the idea of teaching *databases* for most
of the year in *Informatics*, you need do *nothing*.
But here's a hypothesis...
- If you do nothing you *won't* end up teaching databases for most of the
year. Yay! What?
- This is because when students hear that 'Informatics' == 'Databases',
*none* of them will enrol for it.
- You will be teaching *Woodwork*. Or two *Year 9 Health* classes instead.
Of course, that's just a hypothesis. But sharpen your chisels and unwrap
your condoms - just in case.
We know that *IT Applications* enrolments have been trending down for the
past 5 years.
And I'd suggest this largely because databases have been mandated for the
past 5 years in ITA.
And the new *Informatics* course wants to compound the injury by increasing
the database component.
Dammit, people. We've always had an *understanding:*
- *Software Development* has always been for the unashamed IT lover who
would watch "The Big Bang Theory" and laugh at the quantum physics jokes.I
know I do.
- *ITA* (formerly IPM - Information Processing and Management) was for -
let's be honest - the students who liked using computers but couldn't get
into Media Studies. It was a fun, easy subject with low skill expectations
on arrival, and a useful skill set on graduation. It was marked down as a
VCE study, but everyone knew that and accepted that. It was *understood*.
The draft study design seems to want to make ITA an ultrageeknerd study,
chockablock with *pure database science...*the sort of study that would not
be "marked down" and would stand proudly against a "real science" like
physics or chemistry.
But is that what *Informatics* is supposed to be? A rigorous,
intellectually-demanding, highly academic investigation of esoteric theory
that tertiary graduates require for a career in a narrow corner of the IT
industry? If so, it destroys the attraction of a subject for general ICT
skill development.
VCE Maths has all sorts of streams for students who (1) want to get through
year 12 and (2) want to become a maths/science professional.
Why can't VCE IT do the same, as it has always done?
Let's retain a unit 3/4 IT subject for those who couldn't give a flying
fuschia for fancy further specialist studies. How many students would
choose VCE Biology units 3 and 4 if three of the four outcomes were on
*cellular
slime mould*, and the other one was on *everything else*?
These lists have been a whistling desert breeze, a lonely rolling
tumbleweed of discussion on the crucial issue of this draft IT study design.
- Are people passionately in favour of increased database content in ITA
and are silent in anticipation of its arrival? (Yay! More databases!)
- Are people writing passionate feedback in defence or defiance of the
draft to the VCAA survey <http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CRDVJ25>, and are
silent here?
- Are people just passively waiting to be fed whatever VCAA pushes into
their cages, and quietly grumble "I don't like that much" for the next 5
years?
Your only chance is *now*.
And you have only *five* days.
If you have an opinion *express it here on the Edulist forums* as well as
on the VCAA survey site <http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CRDVJ25>.
You might *inspire others* to think and respond.
But I don't have to worry.
- *I* have the beach, red wine, and a thousand fine (and bad) old movies to
amuse me during periods 3 and 4 on a Tuesday.
*- You *will have year 12 *Informatics* with yet *another* database outcome
coming up, and the kids still don't really understand how 2NF differs from
3NF even after your eleven prior attempts to explain it, even with your
hand puppets.
So, if you teach VCE IT...
Read the draft -
http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/Documents/vce/infotech/ComputingSD-consultation-draft.pdf
Read the Summary of changes -
http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/Documents/vce/infotech/VCE_InfoTech_summary_changes.doc
*But for Dog's sake, whether you agree with me or not, go here and say
something -* http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CRDVJ25
Otherwise, you know what the next 5 years will be like for you:
*Countersinks*. *Chlamydia*...
--
Mark Kelly (amateur troublemaker)
mark AT vceit DOT com
http://vceit.com
*Everything new draft study design is a chance to make the VCE world a
better place. - *Mark Kelly
--
Mark Kelly
mark AT vceit DOT com
http://vceit.com
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 17:41:15 +1000
From: Mark <mark at vceit.com<mailto:mark at vceit.com>>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] [Year 12 SofDev] Fwd: The draft study
design is on the table!
To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
<sofdev at edulists.com.au<mailto:sofdev at edulists.com.au>>, "Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing
List" <itapps at edulists.com.au<mailto:itapps at edulists.com.au>>, "Year 11 Information Technology
Teachers' Mailing List" <yr11it at edulists.com.au<mailto:yr11it at edulists.com.au>>
Message-ID:
<CACu=8Z0bLDmUdDEEagsAydbo6enmnrMcnBLCd439mw5yVJDa3A at mail.gmail.com<mailto:8Z0bLDmUdDEEagsAydbo6enmnrMcnBLCd439mw5yVJDa3A at mail.gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Thanks, Stephen, but please elaborate. Thanks for - what?
All we have had so far is evanescent tumbleweeds on this issue... passing
breezes of insubstantial comment that barely raise a millibar of
atmospheric pressure in these turbulent times.
VCAA has proposed *seismic* changes to the philosophy and practice of VCE
IT and these lists (which are probably the main non-VCAA fora of opinion)
have so far largely sat mutely.
We sit like kittens stoically waving our paws in the air at tea time after
we've been told that we will be fed only gherkins from now on.
They (from VCAA) say "Oooh, OK then. No comment from the teaching
community. Fine. Fine. Dat's OK. We must be right, then. Let's publish the
draft then..."
VCAA will rubber-stamp the draft since noone has complained or commented.
They will publish it and *you* will have an OFFICIAL *2016-2020* IT STUDY
DESIGN...
And then the tornado of the new study design hits and the teachers go
"But... but..." when it's too late.
- And you know EXACTLY what the tornado is like. You can *see it coming. *You
have been *told* by the friendly tornado that it is coming.
- It even tells you where and *when* it will land.
- You know that everything will be *canon*. *Immutable*. *Unarguable*. For
*years*.
- But people will still sit in their deckchairs watching it approach, and
say "Well, let's see what happens... hell, just because we're sitting
comfortably in deckchairs in a quiet street in Pamploma on July 14, what
can go wrong?"
This is the only metaphorical tornado that *can* be fought because it
honestly tells you in draft form what it intends to do to you, your school,
your classes, your career... This is the tornado that you *can* and *need
to* tackle.
*You have five days.*
Well, *four* now. It took me quite a few hours and glasses of Cab Merlot to
draft this. I'll charge VCAA separately.
Mark
On 12 May 2014 16:29, Stephen Rosicka <Stephen.Rosicka at galen.vic.edu.au<mailto:Stephen.Rosicka at galen.vic.edu.au>>wrote:
> Mark,
>
> Thanks?
>
> Stephen
>
> From: Mark <mark at vceit.com<mailto:mark at vceit.com>>
> Reply-To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List <
> sofdev at edulists.com.au<mailto:sofdev at edulists.com.au>>
> Date: Monday, May 12, 2014 at 4:20 PM
> To: Year 11 Information Technology Teachers' Mailing List <
> yr11it at edulists.com.au<mailto:yr11it at edulists.com.au>>, Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing
> List <sofdev at edulists.com.au<mailto:sofdev at edulists.com.au>>, Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing
> List <itapps at edulists.com.au<mailto:itapps at edulists.com.au>>
> Subject: [Year 12 SofDev] Fwd: The draft study design is on the table!
>
> Psst. Hey, you. Yes, you. The IT teacher.
> But mainly *you* - the *ITA* teacher.
>
> Remember that *feedback on the draft IT study design* stops on *17 May*.
> See below for quick links.
> Five days to go.
>
> If you teach *ITA* and you love the idea of teaching *databases* for
> most of the year in *Informatics*, you need do *nothing*.
>
> But here's a hypothesis...
>
> - If you do nothing you *won't* end up teaching databases for most of
> the year. Yay! What?
> - This is because when students hear that 'Informatics' == 'Databases',
> *none* of them will enrol for it.
> - You will be teaching *Woodwork*. Or two *Year 9 Health* classes instead.
>
> Of course, that's just a hypothesis. But sharpen your chisels and unwrap
> your condoms - just in case.
>
> We know that *IT Applications* enrolments have been trending down for
> the past 5 years.
> And I'd suggest this largely because databases have been mandated for the
> past 5 years in ITA.
> And the new *Informatics* course wants to compound the injury by
> increasing the database component.
>
> Dammit, people. We've always had an *understanding:*
> - *Software Development* has always been for the unashamed IT lover who
> would watch "The Big Bang Theory" and laugh at the quantum physics jokes.I
> know I do.
> - *ITA* (formerly IPM - Information Processing and Management) was for -
> let's be honest - the students who liked using computers but couldn't get
> into Media Studies. It was a fun, easy subject with low skill expectations
> on arrival, and a useful skill set on graduation. It was marked down as a
> VCE study, but everyone knew that and accepted that. It was *understood*.
>
> The draft study design seems to want to make ITA an ultrageeknerd study,
> chockablock with *pure database science...*the sort of study that would
> not be "marked down" and would stand proudly against a "real science" like
> physics or chemistry.
>
> But is that what *Informatics* is supposed to be? A rigorous,
> intellectually-demanding, highly academic investigation of esoteric theory
> that tertiary graduates require for a career in a narrow corner of the IT
> industry? If so, it destroys the attraction of a subject for general ICT
> skill development.
>
> VCE Maths has all sorts of streams for students who (1) want to get
> through year 12 and (2) want to become a maths/science professional.
> Why can't VCE IT do the same, as it has always done?
>
> Let's retain a unit 3/4 IT subject for those who couldn't give a flying
> fuschia for fancy further specialist studies. How many students would
> choose VCE Biology units 3 and 4 if three of the four outcomes were on *cellular
> slime mould*, and the other one was on *everything else*?
>
> These lists have been a whistling desert breeze, a lonely rolling
> tumbleweed of discussion on the crucial issue of this draft IT study design.
>
> - Are people passionately in favour of increased database content in ITA
> and are silent in anticipation of its arrival? (Yay! More databases!)
> - Are people writing passionate feedback in defence or defiance of the
> draft to the VCAA survey <http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CRDVJ25>, and are
> silent here?
> - Are people just passively waiting to be fed whatever VCAA pushes into
> their cages, and quietly grumble "I don't like that much" for the next 5
> years?
>
> Your only chance is *now*.
> And you have only *five* days.
>
> If you have an opinion *express it here on the Edulist forums* as well
> as on the VCAA survey site <http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CRDVJ25>.
> You might *inspire others* to think and respond.
>
> But I don't have to worry.
> - *I* have the beach, red wine, and a thousand fine (and bad) old movies
> to amuse me during periods 3 and 4 on a Tuesday.
> *- You *will have year 12 *Informatics* with yet *another* database
> outcome coming up, and the kids still don't really understand how 2NF
> differs from 3NF even after your eleven prior attempts to explain it, even
> with your hand puppets.
>
> So, if you teach VCE IT...
>
> Read the draft -
> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/Documents/vce/infotech/ComputingSD-consultation-draft.pdf
>
> Read the Summary of changes -
> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/Documents/vce/infotech/VCE_InfoTech_summary_changes.doc
>
> *But for Dog's sake, whether you agree with me or not, go here and say
> something -* http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CRDVJ25
>
> Otherwise, you know what the next 5 years will be like for you:
> *Countersinks*. *Chlamydia*...
>
> --
> Mark Kelly (amateur troublemaker)
> mark AT vceit DOT com
> http://vceit.com
>
> *Everything new draft study design is a chance to make the VCE world a
> better place. - *Mark Kelly
>
> --
>
> Mark Kelly
> mark AT vceit DOT com
> http://vceit.com
>
>
Mark Kelly
mark AT vceit DOT com
http://vceit.com
*Everything that used to be a sin is now a disease - Bill Maher *
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 08:32:29 +0000
From: "Hawkins, Sean P" <hawkins.sean.p at edumail.vic.gov.au<mailto:hawkins.sean.p at edumail.vic.gov.au>>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] [Year 12 SofDev] Fwd: The draft study
design is on the table!
To: "Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List"
<itapps at edulists.com.au<mailto:itapps at edulists.com.au>>
Message-ID: <13F6FD01-E351-4204-BFF3-375CB232727C at edumail.vic.gov.au<mailto:13F6FD01-E351-4204-BFF3-375CB232727C at edumail.vic.gov.au>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
Mark,
As a relatively new teacher, thanks for pointing this out. I showed my year 12 class the study design. They said that if "informatics" was the class they were currently taking, they'd have dropped out.
I feel like this was turning IT into a statistics or business management class. That's a shame if this happens, as there's a lot of students who want to do IT, but might not have the ability for SD.
I understand databases are important, but it could kill the subject for many students.
Just my 2 cents.
Sean Hawkins
Senior IT Teacher
Staughton College
On 12 May 2014, at 17:54, "Mark" <mark at vceit.com<mailto:mark at vceit.com><mailto:mark at vceit.com<mailto:mark at vceit.com>>> wrote:
Thanks, Stephen, but please elaborate. Thanks for - what?
All we have had so far is evanescent tumbleweeds on this issue... passing breezes of insubstantial comment that barely raise a millibar of atmospheric pressure in these turbulent times.
VCAA has proposed seismic changes to the philosophy and practice of VCE IT and these lists (which are probably the main non-VCAA fora of opinion) have so far largely sat mutely.
We sit like kittens stoically waving our paws in the air at tea time after we've been told that we will be fed only gherkins from now on.
They (from VCAA) say "Oooh, OK then. No comment from the teaching community. Fine. Fine. Dat's OK. We must be right, then. Let's publish the draft then..."
VCAA will rubber-stamp the draft since noone has complained or commented. They will publish it and you will have an OFFICIAL 2016-2020 IT STUDY DESIGN...
And then the tornado of the new study design hits and the teachers go "But... but..." when it's too late.
- And you know EXACTLY what the tornado is like. You can see it coming. You have been told by the friendly tornado that it is coming.
- It even tells you where and when it will land.
- You know that everything will be canon. Immutable. Unarguable. For years.
- But people will still sit in their deckchairs watching it approach, and say "Well, let's see what happens... hell, just because we're sitting comfortably in deckchairs in a quiet street in Pamploma on July 14, what can go wrong?"
This is the only metaphorical tornado that can be fought because it honestly tells you in draft form what it intends to do to you, your school, your classes, your career... This is the tornado that you can and need to tackle.
You have five days.
Well, four now. It took me quite a few hours and glasses of Cab Merlot to draft this. I'll charge VCAA separately.
Mark
On 12 May 2014 16:29, Stephen Rosicka <Stephen.Rosicka at galen.vic.edu.au<mailto:Stephen.Rosicka at galen.vic.edu.au><mailto:Stephen.Rosicka at galen.vic.edu.au<mailto:Stephen.Rosicka at galen.vic.edu.au>>> wrote:
Mark,
Thanks?
Stephen
From: Mark <mark at vceit.com<mailto:mark at vceit.com><mailto:mark at vceit.com<mailto:mark at vceit.com>>>
Reply-To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List <sofdev at edulists.com.au<mailto:sofdev at edulists.com.au><mailto:sofdev at edulists.com.au<mailto:sofdev at edulists.com.au>>>
Date: Monday, May 12, 2014 at 4:20 PM
To: Year 11 Information Technology Teachers' Mailing List <yr11it at edulists.com.au<mailto:yr11it at edulists.com.au><mailto:yr11it at edulists.com.au<mailto:yr11it at edulists.com.au>>>, Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List <sofdev at edulists.com.au<mailto:sofdev at edulists.com.au><mailto:sofdev at edulists.com.au<mailto:sofdev at edulists.com.au>>>, Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List <itapps at edulists.com.au<mailto:itapps at edulists.com.au><mailto:itapps at edulists.com.au<mailto:itapps at edulists.com.au>>>
Subject: [Year 12 SofDev] Fwd: The draft study design is on the table!
Psst. Hey, you. Yes, you. The IT teacher.
But mainly you - the ITA teacher.
Remember that feedback on the draft IT study design stops on 17 May. See below for quick links.
Five days to go.
If you teach ITA and you love the idea of teaching databases for most of the year in Informatics, you need do nothing.
But here's a hypothesis...
- If you do nothing you won't end up teaching databases for most of the year. Yay! What?
- This is because when students hear that 'Informatics' == 'Databases', none of them will enrol for it.
- You will be teaching Woodwork. Or two Year 9 Health classes instead.
Of course, that's just a hypothesis. But sharpen your chisels and unwrap your condoms - just in case.
We know that IT Applications enrolments have been trending down for the past 5 years.
And I'd suggest this largely because databases have been mandated for the past 5 years in ITA.
And the new Informatics course wants to compound the injury by increasing the database component.
Dammit, people. We've always had an understanding:
- Software Development has always been for the unashamed IT lover who would watch "The Big Bang Theory" and laugh at the quantum physics jokes.I know I do.
- ITA (formerly IPM - Information Processing and Management) was for - let's be honest - the students who liked using computers but couldn't get into Media Studies. It was a fun, easy subject with low skill expectations on arrival, and a useful skill set on graduation. It was marked down as a VCE study, but everyone knew that and accepted that. It was understood.
The draft study design seems to want to make ITA an ultrageeknerd study, chockablock with pure database science...the sort of study that would not be "marked down" and would stand proudly against a "real science" like physics or chemistry.
But is that what Informatics is supposed to be? A rigorous, intellectually-demanding, highly academic investigation of esoteric theory that tertiary graduates require for a career in a narrow corner of the IT industry? If so, it destroys the attraction of a subject for general ICT skill development.
VCE Maths has all sorts of streams for students who (1) want to get through year 12 and (2) want to become a maths/science professional.
Why can't VCE IT do the same, as it has always done?
Let's retain a unit 3/4 IT subject for those who couldn't give a flying fuschia for fancy further specialist studies. How many students would choose VCE Biology units 3 and 4 if three of the four outcomes were on cellular slime mould, and the other one was on everything else?
These lists have been a whistling desert breeze, a lonely rolling tumbleweed of discussion on the crucial issue of this draft IT study design.
- Are people passionately in favour of increased database content in ITA and are silent in anticipation of its arrival? (Yay! More databases!)
- Are people writing passionate feedback in defence or defiance of the draft to the VCAA survey<http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CRDVJ25>, and are silent here?
- Are people just passively waiting to be fed whatever VCAA pushes into their cages, and quietly grumble "I don't like that much" for the next 5 years?
Your only chance is now.
And you have only five days.
If you have an opinion express it here on the Edulist forums as well as on the VCAA survey site<http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CRDVJ25>.
You might inspire others to think and respond.
But I don't have to worry.
- I have the beach, red wine, and a thousand fine (and bad) old movies to amuse me during periods 3 and 4 on a Tuesday.
- You will have year 12 Informatics with yet another database outcome coming up, and the kids still don't really understand how 2NF differs from 3NF even after your eleven prior attempts to explain it, even with your hand puppets.
So, if you teach VCE IT...
Read the draft - http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/Documents/vce/infotech/ComputingSD-consultation-draft.pdf
Read the Summary of changes - http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/Documents/vce/infotech/VCE_InfoTech_summary_changes.doc
But for Dog's sake, whether you agree with me or not, go here and say something - http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/CRDVJ25
Otherwise, you know what the next 5 years will be like for you: Countersinks. Chlamydia...
--
Mark Kelly (amateur troublemaker)
mark AT vceit DOT com
http://vceit.com
Everything new draft study design is a chance to make the VCE world a better place. - Mark Kelly
--
Mark Kelly
mark AT vceit DOT com
http://vceit.com
Mark Kelly
mark AT vceit DOT com
http://vceit.com
Everything that used to be a sin is now a disease - Bill Maher
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