[Year 12 IT Apps] What Future IT?
Kent Beveridge
kbeveridge at stbc.vic.edu.au
Wed Sep 26 18:01:37 EST 2007
Hey Bill, you make some very valid points. Additionally, now that I doing this extra maths study, I can actually understand what you mean(bonus for me) in terms of the apps mentioned.
Can I also add that as part of my document presented to my principal to be considered for design ideas for applying to the new computing facilities to be built next year, I suggested adding robotics eg CAD design linked to a multi-axis robot or 'simply' perhaps a milling machine or similar that could be programmed. My thought was to give the kids the opportunity to SEE in action what their programs were doing. I remember getting excited when I designed first in CAD (using CADDSMAN, then later, AUTOCAD). I understand that this is only one potential use but its a start to regenerate an interest and can be extended.
Personally, I got no feedback from the boss so have no idea if it even got to first base. Methinks they just chose the boring old route of a couple of projectors, a fancy electronic whiteboard and some brand new boxes...BORING +++. Its this type of thinking thats killing off the subject I reckon!
Give the kids something they can see happening (physical) rather than just program an interface(GUI) to do stuff!
Sorry, my industry days are surfacing again!
hmmm...links to packaging industry, building, cranes, operations management, aircraft design....got carried away again with REAL applications of computers (real world)
...oh yeah, spreadsheets, wordprocessing, database, webdesign.zzzzz..snore,snore...(BOS world!)
Sometimes wonder why they bother to ask for input from teachers when most of it is ignored anyway. I think our techie here is just getting new boxes etc as above and thinking that if they can paint the cat another color they can call it a Tiger. HA! Give it real claws and make it growl and scare little children(and adults too!) - then call it a Tiger!!
KB.
Kent Beveridge,
I.T. co-ordinator
St. Brigids Catholic Sec. College
Horsham
email.. kbeveridge at stbc.vic.edu.au
|<3|\|7 b3\/3r1D93 ? ;-)
Wishes and Eggs, one you make and one you break! A bit like promises.....
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________________________________
From: itapps-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Bill Kerr
Sent: Wed 9/26/2007 5:13 PM
To: Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] What Future IT?
hi kevork,
appreciate the effort you have gone to with your comprehensive list and analysis
I went through your list and think it can be abbreviated to three main things:
1. tertiary admission (IT deemed to be less important than other subjects)
2. employment issues (gone to india, false perception or boring jobs)
3. trivial or boring or irrelevant or integrated from either student or school perspective either due to school policies (not compulsory, integration) or lack of teacher skill
I've taken out the "fun" item because at the moment that's just being suggested as a possible solution to the problem I think (ie. introduce game maker to senior school), it's not there yet in Victoria - don't think it will solve the problems anyway based on my own experience in one school in SA
Teachers don't have much control over items (1) and (2). We might argue with the Uni stakeholders but they have more say. We might argue that there really are good jobs out there but for some reason its not getting through. By focusing on (1) and (2) there might be some impact on the rate of decline but it's not going to stop the decline. Vocational pathways will continue to be offered in senior school irregardless. It's important but I see it as a side issue to the more important educational issues
Item 3 is a can of worms partly because as a society we haven't yet worked out what computers are really good for. It's an all purpose machine that can emulate lots of other machines but what are they really good for?
eg. the printing press was invented in 1450 but it took a generation before new forms of printing became popular - the older generation had to die out. eg. the first scientific illustrations didn't appear in books until 1484
http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2007/06/what-did-printing-press-change-and-how.html
I would argue that there are unique and powerful educational purposes for computers - eg. dynamically representing the exponential spread of an epidemic, teaching calculus through vectors
I seem to be coming to a position that stand-alone IT might have limited impact in education. But nevertheless, the computer still is a vitally important, amazing and powerful machine that all learners ought to be invited to explore more deeply - for its powerful functionality, not just game playing, web surfing or the latest application
It's more like this
- the printing press led to the book which led to literature which led to English literature
- the computer allows for the dynamic representation of systems which leads to what new subjects (?) or what extensions of existing subjects such as physics etc.?
I think mark guzdial is on the right path here: start with a rich concept from the wider world of science or economics, for example, and then use computers, including programming, to enrich the study of that domain
http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2007/08/mark-guzdial-on-computing-education.html
I see this sort of approach as more productive and more hopeful in the longer term
cheers,
--
Bill Kerr
http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/
On 9/25/07, Kevork Krozian < kevork at edulists.com.au> wrote:
Hi Folks,
It is rather surreal following this thread. Let me explain why.
1. Multimedia Victoria through the office of the State Minister of
Multimedia has just spent $500,000 in a 12 stop travelling roadshow around
Victoria trying to increase IT enrolments to fill the skill shortage out in
industry.
2. Box Hill Institute repeatedly falls short when requested to supply IT
graduates to Google, Telstra and others. For that reason they have held
career information sessions to attract more students. The information
sessions have been presented by industry employers.If anyone wants their
names and email addresses I can find them and pass them on.
It seems we are not sure what the causes are to our problem of declining
student numbers. The theories fall along the following categories:
1. It is not rigorous enough. It is scaled down and therefore does not
appeal to those who want a good ENTER score.
2. It has been continuously eroded to the point tertiary courses prefer
students to NOT have completed a diluted IT course with programming taught
using outdated programming paradigms with monolithic 3G programmming more in
keeping with the late 80s and 90s. The IT courses have been tailored to suit
the teachers available to teach them rather than the demands of industry.
3. IT in secondary schools is entirely disjointed from Year 13 at tertiay
level unlike the much better links that existed with the old Computer
Science at senior secondary level in the late 80s and unlike the better
links that exist between Physics and Chemistry between Yr 12 and 13 as
claimed in an earlier email by a tertiary level IT lecturer.
4. It is too much/not enough FUN.
5. It is too theoretical/business management based with never ending
systems analysis
6. It is/isn't practical enough.
7. It is not being selected because there have been declining numbers of
jobs since the tech wreck of 2000. That was 8 years ago.
8. All the jobs have gone to India so there is no point chasing an IT
career.
9. IT is not a prerequisite for a job since you don't even need it to do IT
at Uni or TAFE. So why take it if you don't need it ? You can take it later
if you decide to follow an IT career.
10. The teacher doesn't know anything/enough about IT and how to fix
computers or how to set up a network so the students think they know more
than the teacher so they can't possible learn from him/her.
11. Students feel they know it all because they can download music, burn
DVDs, edit home movies, update their geocities or myspace personal web area,
use ipods, etc etc. What good would it do to take IT at senior level when
they know it all ?
12. IT is not compulsory at junior level so students do not see a link
between what they have done with ICT across the curriculum and a specialist
senior IT class.
No doubt you can add to this list. What is curious is that during the
careers seminars at Box Hill , industry people lined up a number of myths
such as job numbers have declined and systematically "busted" each one of
them in so far as the industry trends and employment availability. To be
fair, their brief was more on encouraging students to select IT at tertiary
and TAFE levels rather than any dicussion about IT at senior secondary
level.
To also be fair an enormous amount of work has gone in at the local level
to make IT related courses more accessible to secondary students. Many
schools have tried to make IT at secondary level more "work ready" in its
delivery. For example, many schools teach :
1. the VET Multimedia Certificate III
2. the VET IT Certificate III
3. Aries
4. Cisco CCNA and even the first semester of Cisco CCNP.
Despite this huge effort with up to 5 senior IT and IT related classes at
my school ( IT apps, IT Software Dev., VET multimedia Cert III, VET IT Cert
III, Cisco CCNA ) , I have had less than 12 students at Year 11 level ,
enrolled across these subjects for next year.
Whilst there are some valid reasons why students have turned off IT ( listed
above ), I still feel that we have missed something obvious in the evolution
of our subject so that it has become less attractive. Part of it has been
the hijacking of ICT across the curriculum to relegate IT to a doormat (
service ) for other subject areas.The idea of ICT across the curriculum has
as much merit as English or Maths across the curriculum.
I am not sure where the answer(s) lies but maybe we need to survey the
customers more closely to establish what their reasons are in order to fine
tune our efforts.
Yours in despair
Kevork Krozian
Edulists Creator and Administrator
www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
kevork at edulists.com.au
----- Original Message -----
From: "Russell Edwards" <edwards.russell.t at edumail.vic.gov.au>
To: "Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List"
<itapps at edulists.com.au>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] What Future IT?
>
> On 24/09/2007, at 7:00 PM, Cameron Bell wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately the current assessment and VTAC admissions scheme means
>> that students tend to take a strategic approach to subject selection.
>> The ENTER score is the goal. While a few students have a clear pathway
>> mapped out and will chose subjects based on interest, many aim to
>> maximise the ENTER score, then see what courses they qualify for (often
>> making monumental errors of judgement as evidenced by the drop-out rate
>> in first year uni). Why would a student take VCE IT if they felt they
>> could get a better score by taking say, history. There is nothing about
>> having VCE IT as a pre- requisite for ICT courses at the Uni's - they
>> want English and Maths Methods. (Does that say anything about the VCE
>> courses or is it that they want to make it as easy as possible to
>> qualify?) Students could well end up in well paying careers in IT
>> without taking it in Yr 11 or 12.
>
> Well, that has been true for a long time. When I did my VCE in 1992/3, we
> certainly had maximising our tertiary entrance score as the primary goal.
> Like all my computer geek friends, I actively avoided choosing VCE IT
> because it was boring!! I then went on to do an hons degree in comp sci,
> another degree after that, and work for several years in science with
> strong software development component. To a 16-year-old who's been coding
> for half his or her life, spending a year looking at application software
> and business management jargon looks like a big and boring step
> backwards.
>
> My impression is that the VCE IT subjects (apart from Software Dev? I
> have no experience of that) are not designed with the IT enthusiast
> (=future IT professional) in mind. Instead they are designed to give a
> grounding in IT to people who will end up working in other areas. This
> is the type of grounding that will help people work in environments that
> use ICT (i.e. just about everywhere, these days). It's not nearly deep
> enough to provide any significant level of preparation for an ICT career,
> and in fact I'd go so far as to say that anyone who didn't find it boring
> due to its simplicity is very likely, if they enroll in a uni IT course,
> to end up in the drop-out group you mention unless they are willing to
> work very hard at it.
>
> hehe, I remember making a similar point last week on the yr7-10it list.
> Must be navel-gazing season!!
>
> So we may as well forget about "needing it" as a reason for choosing VCE
> IT. If we don't want it to go, it has to be made more interesting and/or
> easier.
>
> Of course, the other option that should always be dispassionately
> considered, even though it's obviously uncomfortable for IT teachers, is
> that possibly it's fading as a VCE-level subject for good reason.
>
> Russell
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