[Year 12 Its] Primary vs Secondary Data Sources

Fri May 20 18:58:59 EST 2005

Hi Robert,

  You are absolutely right in that we are spending a rather disproportionate 
( did anyone say ridiculous ? ) amount of time on trivialities.
 The only point I was trying to make was , like it or not the examiners 
asked the question last year and rightly so in the light of the Study Design 
as it stands making anything in it fair game.
So, what to do if this question appears again this year and next year ? What 
do the students write ? What is our collective response when a more astute 
student puts the question from last year's paper under our nose on Monday ? 
Is it , don't worry about it as it isn't as important as knowing where to 
locate good data sources ?
Or, is the suggestion to lobby the VCAA to prevent these types of questions 
appearing again ?

Best Wishes

Kevork Krozian
Mailing List Creator and Administrator
kevork at edulists.com.au
www.edulists.com.au
Tel: 0419 356 034
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Timmer-Arends" <timmer at melbpc.org.au>
To: "Year 12 Information Technology Systems Teachers' Mailing List" 
<is at edulists.com.au>
Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Year 12 Its] Primary vs Secondary Data Sources

> Hello Kevork and Paul
>
> I understand the need for students knowing these things in light of the
> exam, but I'm interested in the larger issue of whether the exam should 
> ask
> these kind of questions in the first place. It seems to me that a
> consequence of the short answer format is that definitional questions end 
> up
> being included - and they have their place, but, when it comes to
> hairsplitting, why is being able to identify documentation as being one or
> the other important? Another interpretation of the study design is to say
> that the writers wrote 'primary and secondary data sources' for the sake 
> of
> completeness rather than for the sake of having the students being able to
> identify documentation as being primary or secondary.
>
> What has interested me in this thread is that this kind of issue has come 
> up
> a number of times in both IS and IPM for different pairs of words and it
> seems to me that every time it has, it has been in the light of assessment
> and allocating a mark to something a student has written. What concerns me
> is that I wonder whether assessment of this kind is forcing us to spend 
> time
> on trivialities at the expense of coming to grips with more important 
> ideas.
>
> Regards
> Robert T-A
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevork Krozian" <Kroset at novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au>
> To: <is at edulists.com.au>
> Sent: Friday, May 20, 2005 11:08 AM
> Subject: RE: [Year 12 Its] Primary vs Secondary Data Sources
>
>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>>    Thanks for stating the obvious.
>> The discussion is not about splitting hairs.
>> I am the first person to dismiss arbitrary tags around data source
> definitions and get to the important data to modify a system or design a 
> new
> one.
>>
>> The post that started this thread referred to SAC32.
>> SAC 32 , Key knowledge dot point 4 states:
>> .  primary and secondary data sources and data acquisition methods to
> conduct the analysis, including direct observation, surveys, interviews,
> system and program documentation, logs;
>>
>>  2004 IT Systems Exam Question 2 states:
>> Question 2   Identify each of the following data sources as primary or
> secondary.
>>
>> i. The technical documentation of a software program
>>
>> ii. The error log of an information system
>>
>>   I would have thought these are examinable ( based on the above ) and as
> a minimum we , as teachers would agree what each means and could justify 
> it
> based on agreed definitions for the sake of the students. Nothing more,
> nothing less.
>> If it is too hard to agree and we now wish to rewrite the Study Design in
> terms of what it "should" look like, then .... there is nothing more to 
> say.
>>
>> Best Wishes
>> Kevork
>>
>> >>> bicknell.paul.p at edumail.vic.gov.au 05/20/05 09:38am >>>
>> We need to be clear on the definitions because it is part of the
> curriculum of IS and in the exam
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: is-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Robert Timmer-Arends
>> Sent: Thu 5/19/2005 7:46 PM
>> To: Year 12 Information Technology Systems Teachers' Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 Its] Primary vs Secondary Data Sources
>>
>>
>>
>> Taking up Mike's point from before, I wonder if we are starting to get 
>> too
>> hung up on definitions. What is more important: that a student can define
>> the difference between primary and secondary data; or that the student 
>> can
>> identify the most useful sources of data for a given situation?
>>
>> Regards
>> Robert T-A
>> Brighton SC
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bicknell, Paul P" <bicknell.paul.p at edumail.vic.gov.au>
>> To: "Year 12 Information Technology Systems Teachers' Mailing List"
>> <is at edulists.com.au>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 2:13 PM
>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 Its] Primary vs Secondary Data Sources
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> >
>> > From: is-bounces at edulists.com.au on behalf of Kevork Krozian
>> > Sent: Thu 5/19/2005 12:25 PM
>> > To: is at edulists.com.au
>> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 Its] Primary vs Secondary Data Sources
>> > In the context of the following
>> >
>> > < Many texts make the distinction between primary and secondary as not
> the
>> amount of "interpretation" or "reworking" of <the data as the criterion
> for
>> it transforming to secondary data, but the level of separation from the
>> Information System in <question. Eg. Building Information Systems
>> Fitzpatrcik et al p 107 -- " .. primary data directly from the people and
>> documents <associated with the information system and its problems.
>> Secondary data is collected from people and documents one step <removed
> and
>> not directly linked to the information system and its problems".
>> >
>> > I think the "information system and its problems" is in the context of 
>> > a
>> project of investigation, for example the marketing department may carry
> out
>> a customer satisfaction survey and this would be considered secondary
>> because it was carried out by a group not directly involver withe the
>> information system maintenance.
>> > And a computer log is primary because the human role in collection is
> not
>> direct and not interpreted and it is collected directly from the
> information
>> system that is being investigated
>> >
>> > Primary data:
>> > Data that has been collected by yourself (or project team)
>> >
>> >  Secondary data:
>> > data that has been collected by others, who maybe employed by the same
>> company but the data collection methods have not been directly under
> control
>> of yourself or the project team.
>> >
>> >
>> > The amount of processing is not important but rather who controlled the
>> collection, for example a survey by me or people managed by me is primary
>> but a identical survey by other than me or managed by me is secondary. Me
>> being head of the project or team. The interpretation methods and extent
> of
>> data transformation may be identical but the deciding factor is who did
> it.
>> If you and you team did not carry out the survey the results 
>> automatically
>> become less reliable and deemed a secondary source of data.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>> IT Systems Mailing List kindly supported by
>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment 
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> and
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>> Teachers
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>>
>> Important -
>> This email and any attachments may be confidential. If received in error,
> please contact us and delete all copies. Before opening or using 
> attachments
> check them for viruses and defects. Regardless of any loss, damage or
> consequence, whether caused by the negligence of the sender or not,
> resulting directly or indirectly from the use of any attached files our
> liability is limited to resupplying any affected attachments. Any
> representations or opinions expressed are those of the individual sender,
> and not necessarily those of the Department of Education & Training.
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>> IT Systems Mailing List kindly supported by
>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment 
>> Authority
> and
>> http://www.vitta.org.au  - VITTA Victorian Information Technology 
>> Teachers
> Association Inc
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>> IT Systems Mailing List kindly supported by
>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment 
>> Authority
> and
>> http://www.vitta.org.au  - VITTA Victorian Information Technology 
>> Teachers
> Association Inc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.edulists.com.au
> IT Systems Mailing List kindly supported by
> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority 
> and
> http://www.vitta.org.au  - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers 
> Association Inc
> 