[English] expected qualities
rdf4 at bigpond.com
rdf4 at bigpond.com
Sun Jul 15 19:38:43 EST 2012
Hello Jan
The guessing game continues.... The basis of any print text will always be the language. Any other element must be secondary, even third in line or fourth etc... the suggestion that a text has any other basis is limiting; and corralling student thinking.
Thanks for your contribution.
From: Jan May
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 6:58 PM
To: VCE English Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
This is a fascinating discussion to follow. Here's my take.
I like to think of the 'basis of a text' as consisting of elements such as these:
a.. the words or language choices of the writer/director/poet/playwright
b.. context
c.. structure
d.. setting
e.. plot, action, events
f.. characters
All of these elements - and others - contribute to our appreciation of the text. We consider these and then come back and see the text in new ways. Part of the joy of teaching the texts is how students (and the teacher) read and understand the text in different ways. You might also pick up the links between my understanding of 'the basis of the text' and the type of essay questions we end up setting for our students.
Good luck for Term 3 to all
Cheers
Jan
'Jan May English and Literature Teacher
'163 South Road, Brighton East, Victoria 3187 Australia | phone [+61 3] 9909 9339 | fax [+61 3] 9592 3439
'Jan.May at stleonards.vic.edu.au | 'www.stleonards.vic.edu.au
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From: english-bounces at edulists.com.au [english-bounces at edulists.com.au] on behalf of rdf4 at bigpond.com [rdf4 at bigpond.com]
Sent: Sunday, 15 July 2012 6:23 PM
To: VCE English Teachers' Mailing List
Cc: VCE English Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
Hi Julie and thanks,
You begin by suggesting that the phrase ‘the basis of the text’ is a small part of the descriptor that I am being ‘distracted by’. Then you go on to say that this phrase represents ideas of fundamental importance to the text!
You continue with the assertion that the descriptor points to individual interpretation and reading. If there is such a thing as ‘the basis of a text’ (which I am contesting) then I can’t see how it could in any way be referring to individuality or originality in terms of interpretation. I mean if you asked most people what they thought the basis of Macbeth is they’d probably give you the plot outline. Once again I remain baffled by this phrase.
Thanks for that little challenge at the end of your email... I am considering it.
BTW Mary Mason, you have my permission to use my contributions to this thread for your web site.
Cheers
Russell
From: Julie
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2012 7:05 PM
To: VCE English Teachers' Mailing List
Cc: VCE English Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
Hello again,
I still think, as language experts, we need to focus on the purpose of the writing in question, in this case the descriptors, rather than be distracted by a small part of it. The descriptors are designed to 'separate' responses and help determine and rate the quality of each one. (Descriptors: http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vce/studies/english/2008eng-crit-descriptors.pdf )
The difference in degree of the element, 'from the basis of the text' is quite clear. As the quality of the piece declines, the corresponding descriptor uses different language to reflect how the student has responded to the ideas in the text. It deteriorates to 'using some elements of the
text' and other indicators such as 'supported appropriately by elements of the text' (6) and 'referring to appropriate elements of the text (5)
The student who has built a response from the 'basis of the text' employs ideas of fundamental importance to the text, perhaps as a starting point or point of departure. This descriptor points to individual interpretation and reading. Essays beneath that, for example a 5, only refer to 'elements of the text'. Typically, this level of essay might refer to a theme or two without moving beyond that because the student does not understand the essence or basis of the text.
What words, other than 'from the basis of the text', could be used to make the necessary distinction?
The distinction is necessary!
(I thought I sent this message yesterday but it didn't see to make it to the thread...Apologies if I've accidentally spammed anyone on the list. My email did a few strange things yesterday!)
Regards,
Julie Squires
On 14/07/2012, at 9:39 AM, "Mary Mason" <mary.mason at bigpond.com> wrote:
I have been fascinated by this thread about assessment and would like to put it on a site for first year teachers which I am developing with the Ministry and a suggestion to them all to subscribe to the Edulist. Can those who have contributed please let me know through my email mary.mason at bigpond.com whether you would agree with this and thank you Russell for generating such a thoughtful discussion.
Thanks
Mary
From: english-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:english-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Prue Gill
Sent: Friday, 13 July 2012 12:49 PM
To: 'VCE English Teachers' Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
And one other thing to remember – assessment of written work in English involves matters of judgement. There are not neat answers to Russell’s questions – the questions are important because they lead to discussion, and we make our judgement based on all those discussions we have had about what distinguishes one piece of writing from another. Those judgements are up for challenge, and it is in those challenges that I’ve had some of my best professional development. We should not be frightened by the lack of certainty, but thankful because we are reminded that there are still surprises for us to be had when we read student writing. I like reading discussions like this.
Prue
From: english-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:english-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Reynolds, Gail G
Sent: Friday, 13 July 2012 10:50 AM
To: VCE English Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
To weigh into this discussion again, Russell, as I tried to indicate in my previous email, those are guidelines for the assessors, not dot points to be ticked off. The words you are worrying about are markers only of high level responses (if you like an answer to the question what differentiates a high scoring response?) Remember purpose and audience, these are assessor guidelines and intended for that purpose they are not criteria as such but descriptors intended to characterise.
Secondly you are not understanding the meaning of the point, because you have emphasised part of the statement only. The reason that this point does not appear in the lower descriptors is that this characteristic only belongs to a 9 or 10 script, ie the best and the best of the best.
The 'strategy' is NOT NECESSARILY about 'supplying an argument' (although in some cases it could be) There are any number of ways the 'appropriate strategy' can be achieved The minute a list is created, then other strategies, not envisioned by the maker/s of the list, are excluded but the descriptors are intended to be open so that students who have high level skills to employ unusual but effective and highly engaging ways of exploring the text and the question are not penalised but can be rewarded. The 'strategy' reflects the student's high level ability to engage with the issues of the text and topic , the way the issues are raised by the author, the way meaning is created for the audience... in short it is about insightful ways of thinking
Gail
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From: english-bounces at edulists.com.au [english-bounces at edulists.com.au] on behalf of rdf4 at bigpond.com [rdf4 at bigpond.com]
Sent: Friday, 13 July 2012 9:16 AM
To: 'VCE English Teachers' Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
I’m sorry you seem to think I’m playing around here Mary. I explained earlier why I think this is an important issue. The term the basis of the text is increasingly looking like a set of weasel words to me and in the pursuit of clarity I intend to continue to ask what it means. Your sentence, The basis of the text can give rise to multiple meanings of it. Might be more simply and clearly be written as ‘the text can give rise to multiple readings’. I still have no idea what is meant by the basis of the text. ‘Basis’ implies a foundation, as I said before its one thing. What is the foundation of Macbeth? perhaps it is the text itself. Now this is circular and clearly unhelpful. I suggest again that the phrase as it stands in the descriptor is redundant, as it is in your sentence.
Secondly, if a strategy is supplying an argument, then why doesn’t the descriptor mention the word argument in its stead. One would expect the ability to supply an argument to be a feature of middle ranking papers as well as the 9-10 grade where it singularly appears. Further to this, I would be looking for an ‘effective’ argument, not being sure what an appropriate one is...
But thanks for your input so far.... I understand if feel you can’t continue and prefer to simply disagree.
Russell
From: Mary Mason
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 11:32 PM
To: 'VCE English Teachers' Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
I think you are now playing with words. The basis of the text can give rise to multiple meanings of it. I can argue about Macbeth from a feminist perspective; I can argue that he is beguiled by the witches and his wife; I can argue that he has created a weaker
Scotland; and so on. In each case I am using the text as the basis but I am giving it an angle, or following a particular perspective. In terms of strategy, as a marker, you look for an argument and how appropriately students have argued. I think students do make choices about what strategy to adopt and when there is congruence with what they are arguing, it is magic. Russell, perhaps we just disagree.
Mary
From: english-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:english-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of rdf4 at bigpond.com
Sent: Thursday, 12 July 2012 10:06 PM
To: 'VCE English Teachers' Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
Hi Mary; and thanks for the response...
I think what you’ve written actually highlights one of the aspects of the issue: you write that you’re guessing twice and presuming once in your interpretation of this, I would argue, poorly written descriptor.
If I understand you correctly you’re suggesting that the idea of multiple readings constitute the basis of the text. As I understand it a basis is one thing, so I’m not sure if this is possible.
You go on to argue that ‘appropriateness’ suggests choices, but the descriptor specifically mention an appropriate strategy, not that students would put up one strategy, and then another, then demonstrate that they’ve chosen one. Anyway, what I want know is what is such an appropriate strategy and, by definition, what is an inappropriate one. Two responses so for have tried to argue that relevance her might be the discriminating element here. Gail suggested that students can wonder off topic. Her example was the Years of Wonders one where students might talk in general terms about the plague in London and forget the setting of the text being Eyam. This hardly seems like an issue to do with a highly graded paper. The American novel containing flashbacks seems like students need to deal with a fairly clear structural element within the text: time shifts. I haven’t read it myself so I cant comment on the complexity of it... but the issue is, again, not one of complexity, but of the two elements an appropriate strategy in dealing with the topic and what is the basis of the text. As far as I can see no clear explanation has been arrived at.
Thanks
Russell
From: Mary Mason
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2012 1:36 PM
To: 'VCE English Teachers' Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
Hi - I am not an assessor now but given that there are multiple readings of texts I guess that what this descriptor is saying is that any reading must be grounded in the text and recognising that such readings will be different. Presumably the ways in which students interrogate the text should show the complexity of their response and the choices they deliberately make to express their reading. Appropriateness suggests they make choices. For example on Sunday School this week, a teacher talked about the importance of students not just pursuing the flashbacks of the main character of the novel to America but the lived in present of his dialogue with the American. Those students who merely explore the flashbacks without relating it to present time would not have such a complex reading and may just be repeating a received reading instead of using all of their knowledge about the text to tackle the question dynamically. I guess if I were marking – and I have marked in the past – I would be looking for not only the capacity of the student to have developed a complex reading of the text which is supported by that text, but I would be looking at the fluency through which he or she could express that meaning cogently, and succinctly using appropriate metalanguage which is at the same time evocative of the language of the novel. The very best answers use language so well. I have also marked literature as well and in both cases originality and complexity of reading matched by excellent fluency are the hallmarks of top answers. Why is the basis of the text not in other levels? Well it should be but it is only in those high answers that the response is controlled and the student is making choices about appropriate strategies.
Cheers
Mary
From: english-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:english-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of rdf4 at bigpond.com
Sent: Thursday, 12 July 2012 1:20 PM
To: VCE English Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
Wondering if there’s any other assessors on this thread who care to comment on the descriptor in question... Personally, and professionally I might add, I find this an interesting issue. If these descriptors hold any weight at all in the assessment process then don’t we have an obligation to understand them; or if they are poorly written then at least identify their shortcomings and deal with it...?
The key questions once again are: What is the basis of the text? For instance, what is the basis of, say, Cat’s Eye? And what is meant by an appropriate strategy for dealing with it (ie the topic) and why is there no need for a strategy (appropriate or otherwise) below the 9-10 range?
Thanks
Russell
From: rdf4 at bigpond.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 8:14 PM
To: VCE English Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
Hi Gail
Thanks for contributing to this thread.
Just to be clear, it’s dot point 2 in the 8-10 range I’m referring to. I suppose good, clear writing is what I’m concerned about here. Firstly, if someone could explain to me what the basis of the text is, why it is considered so important then maybe we could then discuss profitable ways of teaching to it. For instance, what is the basis of the text Cat’s Eye by Margaret Atwood? Secondly, what is meant by an appropriate strategy and why aren't students below the 9-10 range considered to need one, appropriate or otherwise?
I don’t have any anxieties about the discrepancy rates or lack thereof, just thinking that we need to know exactly what is going on in the language and syntax of this descriptor. Gail’s point about students thinking they are meeting the [wider] implications surely become an issue when no such implications are referred to in the examination criteria.
Russell
From: Reynolds, Gail G
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2012 4:57 PM
To: VCE English Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
Hi Russell,
I think the point of the phrase is that the weaker students will often go off into tangents separating their exploration of the iissues from the text itself; so for example a Year of Wonders response might wander off into a discussion of the plague in general terms, say, how many were killed in London, which is irrelevant to the text which is set (apparently) in Eyam an isolated small village well away from London. The student themselves may think they are meeting the wider implications criteria, but they are not addressing the text. The phrase which worries you is a reminder to the Assessors that these discussions need to be in a context which has a substantial link to the content of the text. (Remember that these criteria are not the ones given on the exam paper but intended for the assessors -- a process I think is somewhat duplicitous ... but that is another issue altogether)
You should also consider that the assessors make 'on balance' decisions in a process which is holistic marking, ie markers don't tick off criteria as such, but use them as a guide for their marking. An experienced assessor will use these criteria to differentiate scripts, but two responses may receive the same marks although the degree to which they meet each of the stated criteria may show greater strength in one area over another when compared one to the other. It sounds complex, but English has a very low discrepancy rate (assessors disagreeing)
Gail
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From: english-bounces at edulists.com.au [english-bounces at edulists.com.au] on behalf of rdf4 at bigpond.com [rdf4 at bigpond.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 10 July 2012 11:13 AM
To: VCE English Teachers' Mailing List
Cc: english at edulists.com.au
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
Hello Julie and thanks for your response...
I don’t have an issue with the key words you identify... though I have a nagging feeling that the phrase “ from the basis of the text” is redundant. I mean the exam topic itself invariably refers to the text. Unless it’s referring to something else, I don’t understand why it’s there. Also your point about “understanding the text in the wider world”... isn't this a C&P feature rather than a R&R one? My understanding of an R&R response is that it deals with the world of the text, not real world elements...
I also wonder what is meant by “an appropriate strategy for dealing with it” ... ie the topic; and why marks below 8 don’t need a strategy, appropriate or otherwise. >From your point of view what would such an appropriate strategy be? Perhaps others also have thoughts on this?
Thanks again,
Russell
From: Julie
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 8:50 PM
To: VCE English Teachers' Mailing List
Cc: mailto:english at edulists.com.au
Subject: Re: [English] expected qualities
Hi Russell,
The key words in this description, for me, are: 'implications', 'exploring' and 'complexity'. The thinking associated with these words is quite sophisticated. While we hope that all students respond 'from the basis of the text' it is usually clear that the best responses take the ideas so much further. The basic response 'describes' the ideas in the topic while the best response moves way beyond this and understands the text in the wider world.
It is hard to explain but when you see the difference in student responses the difference is more obvious.
Regards,
Julie Squires
On 09/07/2012, at 12:42 PM, <rdf4 at bigpond.com> wrote:
Hi
I’m looking at the 2011 Expected Qualities (Reading and Responding) for exam markers and wonder what people understand by the term... “Demonstrates an understanding of the implications of the topic...exploring its complexity from the basis of the text.” I note that this expected quality is only referred to in the 8-10 mark range. One would like to think that most students would use the text as the basis for their response; or am I missing the point...?
http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vce/studies/english/2008eng-crit-descriptors.pdf
Russell
From: Lorraine Paul
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 7:58 PM
To: english at edulists.com.au
Subject: Re: [English] VCE English Teachers and Coordinators
Thanks Mary. I teach in an independent school. It's nice when you have forums like this. All the best!
Lorraine
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From: mary.mason at bigpond.com
To: english at edulists.com.au
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 09:21:46 +1000
Subject: Re: [English] VCE English Teachers and Coordinators
Lorraine - I’m sorry. You need to have an edumail address to access the site. You can be a crt teacher or an employee in a state school.
Mary
From: english-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:english-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Lorraine Paul
Sent: Saturday, 7 July 2012 11:15 PM
To: english at edulists.com.au
Subject: Re: [English] VCE English Teachers and Coordinators
Hello Mary,
Is this open only to State School Teachers ?
Lorraine
!
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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 12:58:49 +1000
From: mcclenaghan.douglas.j at edumail.vic.gov.au
To: english at edulists.com.au
Subject: Re: [English] VCE English Teachers and Coordinators
Hello Mary
Yes, I am certainly interested in this. Sign me up.
Yours
Douglas McClenaghan
>>> Mary Mason<mary.mason at bigpond.com> 7/06/2012 11:13 AM >>>
Dear VCE teachers
I am working with a group for the Department of Education on designing course materials for Years 11 and 12 VCE English for State School Teachers. We are also working on a site on! the Ultranet for teachers new to VCE English. This site will provide excellent materials for teachers; provide opportunities for them to ask questions of experienced VCE teachers; participate in a forum with other teachers; and opportunities to access virtual discussions/lectures on aspects of the course. We are also hopeful that there could be a forum on it for collaborative research for VIT projects. We would like to have about 30 teachers from state schools ,who are presently teaching VCE, who would be willing to trial and help us to build the site so it will be helpful for teachers. Participation will count towards professional development time and will, I think, be most interesting. If you are a CRT teacher you are welcome to join as well. I know it is diffi! cult sometimes for you to pick up professional development hours. Please contact me directly on my email: mary.mason at bigpond.com if you are able to participate. The trial will be in Term 3 and will involve you loggi! ng into the site, participating in some of the forums, and feeding back to us your comments.
Best wishes
Mary Mason
Consultant to the Ultranet
Important - This email and any attachments may be confidential. If received in error, please contact! us and delete all copies. Before opening or using attachments check t hem for viruses and defects. Regardless of any loss, damage or consequence, whether caused by the negligence of the sender or not, resulting directly or indirectly from the use of any attached files our liability is limited to resupplying any affected attachments. Any representations or opinions expressed are those of the individual sender, and not necessarily those of the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development.
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VCE English Teachers' Mailing List kindly supported by
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Important - This email and any attachments may be confidential. If received in error, please contact us and delete all copies. Before opening or using attachments check them for viruses and defects. Regardless of any loss, damage or consequence, whether caused by the negligence of the sender or not, resulting directly or indirectly from the use of any attached files our liability is limited to resupplying any affected attachments. Any representations or opinions expressed are those of the individual sender, and not necessarily those of the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development.
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