[Informatics] Database choices for U3AoS1

Tue Jan 19 11:04:57 AEDT 2016

Hi all,

I find it quite interesting that database interaction via  a website is encouraged in informatics. I certainly think it’s a useful skill, however the programming requirements can be quite challenging for students, and the setup/security aspects add a complexity requirement for teachers/network admins.

From reading the Study Design for U3O1 part a (i.e. the 90% task) the students need to:

-          Analyse a design brief

-          Design and develop a database (RDBMS) “solution”

From reading the Study Design there is a very helpful definition of the word “solution” in the Glossary (which is of course examinable):
Solutions can be interactive or non-interactive, online (internet connected) or not, multimodal or not.

Thus from my perspective there is nothing in U3O1 part a that mandates an online internet connected solution.

One could quite clearly satisfy the outcome requirements by using a similar task to the old U3O1 using MS Access ensuring the solution had a user interface (form/report) and back end (query/tables) which provided a meaningful answer to the issues expressed in the design brief.

My thinking is for Informatics U3O1 this year most of us will go with Access with a view to pushing as much of this area of the course into Computing U2O3 at the end of the year, while taking some time during 2016 to develop additional web-based content for use in Informatics U3O1 2017. Programming in Computing U2O1 will probably be directed more towards Python and PHP to enable this to more easily occur too.

By using some different tools, we can keep the database work of Computing and Informatics separate and interesting for students.

By the way Brett, great ideas in the previous mail.
Lucas

From: informatics-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:informatics-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Groves, Brett G
Sent: Monday, 18 January 2016 3:04 PM
To: Year 12 VCE Informatics Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Informatics] Database choices for U3AoS1

Can I order eleventy seven copies of KellyBase please sounds great – does in do 432nd  normal forms?

If anyone does in fact want to put MS Access online it’s fairly easy – most school runs a share point and if the DB is built in Access as a web database then it’s a snap to upload it.

Alternatively and heaps more fun is to build a really simple LAMP server, you can do it on you usb with a number of free applications or on your own laptop no installation no coding, no config required. You can create a table using PHPMyAdmin or cheat and download BullZip Access to MySQL convertor and push a table you have created in Access into MySQL directly. You’ll need to download the data connector software from Oracle and install it so Access can talk to MySQL and use the linked table manage in Access to point to the table in MySQL as a remote table. Now any changes in either will be reflected in the other and you can use it as you would a normal source table in Access.

The slightly tricky bit is to create a form to enter data online. There are a number of interpreters which will do this for you, many free, I’ve had student use the freeware version of SQL Maestro’s PHP Generator which was very simple to master. Alternatively you could teach some PHP and gets students to code it – it’s easier than it sounds and voila you have an online RDMS without needing much in the way of web programming expertise.

Alternatively you could just pretend it’s online since I don’t believe it’s actually stipulated it has to function online from my reading but where’s the fun in that?

Kind Regards,
Brett Groves
Melba College

From: informatics-bounces at edulists.com.au<mailto:informatics-bounces at edulists.com.au> [mailto:informatics-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Mark
Sent: Tuesday, 12 January 2016 11:12 AM
To: Year 12 VCE Informatics Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Informatics] Database choices for U3AoS1

Hi all.

I don't wish to tell people how to suck eggs, but a few people have asked me to recommend a RDBMS for them to teach for U3O1.

I am finding it interesting that people are still thinking about the software to use for U3O1 when there are only about 3 weeks to go before classes begin (assuming you're doing U3O1 as your first outcome). I've found the mastering a new RDBMS is a major investment of time and effort, a task not be lightly undertaken in a hurry..

Telling people what RDBMS to use is like telling them what sort of dog they should buy. It depends a lot on your local circumstances, computing platforms and servers, finances, technical support competence, dog-handing/database skills and so on. I usually tell people, "Use the database you already know the best."  You wouldn't want to be trying to teach kids to fully exploit a database that you yourself are only just getting used to.

And though I used Filemaker for all database tasks when I taught - simply because I already knew it inside-out - if I had to choose a database for 2016, I wouldn't use Filemaker. It's expensive: education pricing for 25 seats is $1,824 per year or $5,450 outright. And as others have mentioned, Filemaker is a bit eccentric in places, such as defining calculations as fields, and allowing repeating fields. It's like the Bjork of the database world.

MS Access is not quite as easy to learn as Filemaker, but it is ubiquitous and there is a lot of support for it.
MySQL - free and used everywhere - would be very attractive. I'd be tempted to investigate that.

Regards
Mark

P.S. Just reminding you all about Kellybase - my DBMS written in 'Scratch' and available for less than $300,000 per seat, due to be released sometime in 2019.
Order now.
If I get a few sales, I might even make it relational, and add support for new field data types like integer, floating point, string and Boolean!

On 11 January 2016 at 20:38, Laurie Savage <08327998 at pvgc.vic.edu.au<mailto:08327998 at pvgc.vic.edu.au>> wrote:
Download XAMPP it is fairly straight forwrd. Al my kid are using it. You might need to to fiddle with the port settings once you are back on the school network bu IO can show you how if you are at the session on 19/1

Laurie Savage

On 11 Jan 2016, at 6:21 PM, Sandra Mobbs <s.mobbs at cccc.vic.edu.au<mailto:s.mobbs at cccc.vic.edu.au>> wrote:

I tried learning PHP  last year with a view to u
sing PHP and SQL for the database component. Nutting out how to do it over the Internet,  I downloaded WAMPP server to run the PHP but it required administrator rights everytime I wanted to run a program.  I ended up continuing with Access as neither the students nor I have administrator rights.

I would love to know how others are set up to use SQL so I can see what I can organise to have another go.

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On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 7:20 PM -0800, "Vella, James" <jvella at mackillop.vic.edu.au<mailto:jvella at mackillop.vic.edu.au>> wrote:
Hi Richard

My gut feeling would be to ditch FileMaker and go with either an SQL or Access backend for your database. My reading of U3O1 is that a solution is required to be produced (ie. Backend and UI). While the learning curve may seem big this year, you could always introduce SQL or Access as part of U2O3 this year and not have such a steep one next year.

My guess would be that Access is used more than FileMaker (given the widespread availability of Office products) and follows a similar syntax to SQL when you get past the wizard-based stuff.

For the U3O1 SAC, as I said, my reading is that a solution is required to be developed using a RDBMS – that comes directly from the Outcome statement.

Hope that clears it up for you.

James.

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From: informatics-bounces at edulists.com.au<mailto:informatics-bounces at edulists.com.au> [mailto:informatics-bounces at edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Fox, Richard R
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 12:56 PM
To: informatics at edulists.com.au<mailto:informatics at edulists.com.au>
Subject: [Informatics] Database choices for U3AoS1

Hi, Happy New Year everyone!

I'd like to thank everyone for the excellent contributions made by members of the list, it's a great community.

I'm interested to see what choices people are making for the database to be used in U3O1. Last year I used FileMaker Pro, which I have some previous experience in from many years back, but I have been working extensively in mySQL since then for my own projects.

It seems the choices are:
1) FileMaker Pro - easy to get started, good for form design, but confusing when trying to separate database design (tables, fields, types, validation) from UI which is done through layouts. Using portals as an abstraction for relationships is also confusing. I found students could get up to speed quickly with layout design but explaining queries was really hard because it is all UI-driven, and finds are stored rather than scripted. Also, it is very relaxed with data validation, so it will happily let you do calculations with price values for example that have been stored as a Text data type. Also, I don't think it is really used much in the real world these days?

2) SQL - I think this is really a better way to teach how a database is structured, so that one can see it is just a data store and then one sets up relationships between tables. It also enforces data types properly. I found even whilst teaching FileMaker last year it was still easier to explain queries using SQL statements. But is it too steep a learning curve?

3) Microsoft Access -  I have not used this before, and really don't want to invest time to learn it when I have other choices. From my understanding it is not widely used anymore, much like FileMaker?

Of these, I'm still leaning towards using mySQL because (a) it lets one concentrate on correct RDBMS design, without UI complications or abstractions, (b) it is easier to check SQL scripts for correct operation (c) it is far more relevant these days being the common foundation of web apps using PHP and mySQL back ends, (d) it is free and cross-platform.

Where I'm still not clear is whether the study design says they have to build a full application using a database (so, it has a UI), or whether they only have to demonstrate correct table and relationship design. If they are expected to make an end-user application then they would need to use PHP in web pages to interact with the database, which would increase the complexity of the task. But correct design, use of queries and validation can be demonstrated through interaction with the SQL interpreter. The other design requirements of the outcome could still be met by layout diagrams, test plans, etc.

Looking forwards to some insights from others.

Thanks,
Richard
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