[Informatics] Secondary data

Wed Dec 7 16:46:42 AEDT 2016

Thanks, Litsa. That's what I was thinking.

I never thought the definition of primary and secondary data was quite this
fraught.
It seems pretty clear to me.

You guys need to make it crystal-clear to your kiddies. You decide.

Regards,
Mark

On 7 December 2016 at 15:47, Litsa Tzelepis <htzelepis at msj.vic.edu.au>
wrote:

> hello everyone xx
>
> i found this:
>
> https://www.reference.com/business-finance/difference-
> between-primary-secondary-data-a8ab630428ba46b#
>
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 3:33 PM, Roland Gesthuizen <rgesthuizen at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hmm, a valid point mark but I think we are missing what we want our
>> students to actually do.
>>
>> If I use the primary data collected by somebody else, say a CSV of raw
>> weather data collected by the BOM without any manipulation  .. does this
>> become secondary because it changed hands? Did I need to sit on the Viking
>> Mars Lander weather station to measure the local climate, collect the raw
>> data stream with my own radar dish, visit JPL to view the data file or
>> download the identical copy here?
>>
>> To date, I have not heard from anybody that students must be the original
>> collectors, curators and generators of all the research data. Whilst some
>> chose to do this, marching north to knock on doors whilst clutching
>> clipboards, it's a huge challenge to mandate this for all and I think it
>> defeats the intention of the activity.
>>
>> My guess is that students need to source and use *'original research
>> data'* .. untainted by the manipulating touches of any filtering,
>> sorting or even a light breath of formatting. By my understanding, I want
>> to see the students do all of this.
>>
>> By illustration, whilst I did not collect the weather information that
>> was recorded in the 1800's, I can access the original research data
>> directly from high quality digital scans of the original ship logs,
>> digitise this and conduct an analysis on the original research data. Beyond
>> climbing into a Blue Tardis, this is as primary and real as it gets.
>>
>> PS: The latter is a real citizen science, crowd sourced project by the
>> way, https://www.oldweather.org .. I am currently at sail in the Indian
>> ocean on a steamer to Africa .. i'll bring back some bananas back to
>> distract Mark.
>>
>> Regards Roland
>>
>> On 7 December 2016 at 14:21, Mark <mark at vceit.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Heath
>>>
>>> I can't accept that 'secondary' is a synonym for 'processed' and that
>>> 'primary' simply means 'unprocessed' or 'raw'.
>>>
>>> If that were true, we could just refer to 'data' (unprocessed) and
>>> 'information' (processed) and not need the concepts of  'primary' and
>>> 'secondary' at all.
>>>
>>> Let's go Googling and see what The Real World is saying ...
>>>
>>> *The first hit on Google
>>> <https://www.reference.com/education/primary-secondary-data-5e4a8333252bf73b>
>>> for 'primary data' says:*
>>> "Primary data is original research that is obtained through first-hand
>>> investigation, while secondary data is research that is widely available
>>> and obtained from another party. Primary data includes information
>>> collected from interviews, experiments, surveys, questionnaires, focus
>>> groups and measurements."
>>>
>>> *The second says:*
>>> "Data observed or collected directly from first-hand experience.
>>> Published data and the data collected in the past or other parties is
>>> called secondary data."  Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.
>>> com/definition/primary-data.html
>>>
>>> *The third says:*
>>> "Primary data is information that you collect specifically for the
>>> purpose of your research project. An advantage of primary data is that it
>>> is specifically tailored to your research needs. A disadvantage is that it
>>> is expensive to obtain... The source of your primary data is the population
>>> sample from which you collect the data. "
>>>
>>> *The fourth says:*
>>> "Primary data is original research that is obtained through first-hand
>>> investigation, while secondary data is research that is widely available
>>> and obtained from another party. Primary data includes information
>>> collected from interviews, experiments, surveys, questionnaires, focus
>>> groups and measurements. Secondary data can be found in publications,
>>> journals and newspapers."
>>>
>>> A trend is developing, I believe. For our purposes, I can only logically
>>> conclude that:
>>>
>>> A *primary* data source is surveys, questionnaires, observation *conducted
>>> by the investigator*.
>>> A *secondary* data source is any external provider of data or
>>> information that *have not been generated by the investigator*.
>>>
>>> And yes, I *am* arguing in my spare time.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7 December 2016 at 11:10, Matheson, Heath A <
>>> Matheson.Heath.A at edumail.vic.gov.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I had a chat with Paula and some other gurus about this the other day.
>>>>
>>>> Mark you are right expect the SAT always uses the term “primary data *sources”
>>>> * which to me is confusing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We came to the conclusion that primary data sources are where you find
>>>> raw, unprocessed data, like BOM hourly rainfall or temperature
>>>> observations. You don’t have to get a rain gauge out to have a primary data
>>>> source. Of course they can be where you measure it yourself as well. (I
>>>> would call that primary data collection)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Secondary data sources are where you find processed data, like
>>>> averages, or opinions or YouTube clips on your topic.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Heath
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* informatics-bounces at edulists.com.au [mailto:
>>>> informatics-bounces at edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Mark
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 6 December 2016 10:17 PM
>>>> *To:* Year 12 VCE Informatics Teachers' Mailing List
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Informatics] Secondary data
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Michael.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> OK. Re-reading your original post (seven months later) makes me realise
>>>> that I missed your point entirely.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Secondary* data is created by people other than the researcher
>>>> (regardless of its format - e.g. websites, infographics, other research.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Primary* data is original : designed, gathered, coded and interpreted
>>>> by the researcher for a specific, tailored purpose.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Data or information gathered from *other* people's efforts is
>>>> secondary - even if it *is* raw data. You, the user, may have no idea
>>>> what sorts of loaded or leading questions were asked to gather that raw
>>>> data, how the sample respondents were selectively chosen, or how the data
>>>> were validated, fudged, or cherry-picked to prove a point. Data collected
>>>> by someone else may be 'raw' but it does not mean it is authentic, genuine,
>>>> accurate, complete, unbiased, or trustworthy.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also - for example - do you count someone else's calculated * average*
>>>> as "raw data" or "information"?
>>>>
>>>> Any processing - even a simple 'average' - processes raw data into
>>>> summary information - and we all know there are *three* different
>>>> types of statistical average that can significantly and deliberately skew
>>>> raw data into information that is convenient for the researcher.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In short...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> - If *you, the researcher* did not do the interviews or write and
>>>> conduct the surveys, you are using *secondary* data.
>>>>
>>>> - To collect *primary data*, one has to use one's own original
>>>> surveys, questionnaires, observation, sensors, etc.**
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My 1.8 cents' worth (end-of-year sale! I have lots more unsold advice
>>>> going cheaply! Enquire now! Beat the new year price rises!)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'd be happy to hear of differing interpretations of key knowledge.
>>>>
>>>> Classes have basically finished.
>>>>
>>>> You and I have time for a five minute argument
>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y>*.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mark
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> * This link is dedicated to a good friend of mine on this list who
>>>> confesses that she does not understand Monty Python.
>>>> I ask you all to wish the poor lass well in her recovery. I fear that
>>>> she may not even know the bandwidth of African or even European Swallows.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ** This is where it gets a bit murky. One might well argue that you
>>>> can use secondary data to generate new and original primary data for a new
>>>> purpose. For example, summarising 100 years of death notices in newspapers
>>>> to track average life expectancies over time. The old newspapers were
>>>> secondary sources, but when used their information is used to derive new
>>>> and original data for a new purpose, they would be considered primary
>>>> sources.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> OK. It's not as black and white as most students hope it will be.
>>>>
>>>> Let's just tell them that primary data = home-grown survey,
>>>> questionnaire, observation.
>>>> Secondary data is data from everywhere else.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Room 12A is free.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 20 May 2016 at 09:27, Poke, Michael C <poke.michael.c at edumail.vic.go
>>>> v.au> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> Forgive me if this has already been discussed, but just wanting to
>>>> check, can secondary data include information from websites such as
>>>> infographics, findings from other research, quotable quotes, or does it
>>>> have to be entirely made up of raw,
>>>>
>>>> unprocessed data?  Sorry for posting what seems like a amateurish
>>>> question.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Michael Poke*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Senior Years ICT Teacher
>>>>
>>>>  Senior Years Digital Learning Leader
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Manor Lakes P-12 College*
>>>>
>>>>  *2-50 Minindee Road*
>>>>
>>>>  *Wyndham Vale Victoria 3024*
>>>>
>>>>  *poke.michael.c at edumail.vic.gov.au
>>>> <poke.michael.c at edumail.vic.gov.au>*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *P.(03)97414202 <(03)%209741%204202>  F.(03)97411420
>>>> <(03)%209741%201420>*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Google+: **bit.ly/PokeGoogle* <http://bit.ly/PokeGoogle>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *YouTube:* *bit.ly/MichaelPokeYouTube*
>>>> <http://bit.ly/MichaelPokeYouTube>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Twitter: **@michaelpoke* <http://bit.ly/MichaelPokeTwitter>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> mark at vceit.com
>>>>
>>>> http://vceit.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>
>>> Mark Kelly
>>>
>>> mark at vceit.com
>>> http://vceit.com
>>>
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>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> *Roland Gesthuizen*
>> http://about.me/rgesthuizen
>>
>> "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can
>> change the world; indeed it is the only thing that ever has." --Margaret
>> Mead
>>
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>> VCE Informatics Mailing List kindly supported by
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>> Teachers Association Inc <br>
>> http://www.swinburne.edu.au/ict/schools - Swinburne University
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Litsa Tzelepis
> Mount St. Joseph Girls' College
> 133 Maidstone Street, Altona, VIC. 3018
> htzelepis at msj.vic.edu.au
> P:8398 2000 | F:9398 3498
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-- 

Mark Kelly

mark at vceit.com
http://vceit.com

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