Hi Kevork,<br><br>well I've tried for 2-3 days to resist responding but in the end I haven't been successful :-)<br><br>the tipping point is that rob used the word "purist" too in the thread he started<br>
<br>[quote from rob in other thread] -<br>I feel a bit like I've found a combination of ICT and philosophical thinking that seems, in any given school, to be a minority (the "lets just use the stuff" approach / use some app with low entry and high graphics or communication payoff - seems to dominate. That whole tension is one I'd like to investigate - I'm not unsympathetic to that approach for lots of kids - gamemaker is a good hybrid between the two (purist vs ICT user)
<br>[/quote]<br><br>that is one thing that intrigued me about your reply: that you used the word "purist" to describe what I described as an educational approach to the use of computers<br><br>One aim is to try to get at your thinking behind this use of language and the other language we use wrt computers in schools (?)
<br><br>Initially the thinking behind teachers introducing game maker (to focus on that for a sec) was far from purist<br><br>key words here would be - engagement, motivational<br><br>advocates of game maker have been criticised for their lack of purity, for their capitulation to vulgar populism eg. see Kent's comments in this thread
<br><br>go back a few years and the educational flavour of the decade was logo<br><br>key words here would be - epistemology or more accurately "genetic epistemology" (from Piaget) and papert invented a new one, "constructionism" (mmm ... not recognised by my spell checker, it has become a rare beast)
<br><br>these are difficult words but do have some sort of real basis in educational thinking - it's not really fair to describe this approach as purist<br><br>some have argued and produced research studies that logo didn't work (eg. Roy Pea) in achieving its stated goals - but that's a big discussion really
<br><br>My point is about the language we use in describing computer use in schools - what I think is that this tends to reflect metaphors of the computer we have internalised<br><br>I see this as -<br>obstacles to introducing a child centered developmental approach to the use of computers in schools
<br><br>Maybe it's "idealist" in some way because the prevailing ethos is very much "some other way" - labels might include vocational, administrative, data management thinking, hardware / networking focus, VELS etc.
<br><br>I like rob's approach of exploring the tension b/w existing approaches but don't like the way rob has described the poles of the tension (purist vs ICT user)<br><br>I'd prefer something like -<br>educational versus vocational
<br>or<br>epistemological versus instrumentalist <br><br>"explore the tension" - good phrase rob<br><br>Kevork, I liked this reality check from you -<br>"<font face="Arial" size="2">if we are looking at what is the best programming language for
children to learn in Period 1, and in Period 2 we are teaching students VET IT
and what they need to go out and work in industry next year and the period after
that we are teaching Cisco students how to set up a network in the "real" world
through a simulated or school based problem then you will forgive my oversight
if I stray into what is needed in industry as part of what they are doing. Maybe
I am suffering VET fatigue.</font>"<br><br>and there have been other such recent comments, eg<br>"I don't have time to learn a new programming language"<br><br>cheers,<br>- Bill<br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">
On 9/17/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Kevork Krozian</b> <<a href="mailto:kevork@edulists.com.au">kevork@edulists.com.au</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Hi Bill,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"> I take your point about the purist approach
rather than let the market dictate what is good for me.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Having said that, it wasn't my intention to knock
down python or scratch - just to show their level of pervasiveness. I know, most
used doesn't mean the best.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I taught Python to my year 11s this year and PHP
with MySQL to my year 12s. Some of my 11s actually managed to get Python to work
with the MySQL backend as well. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">At one point in my professional life I REALLY
wanted to make sure my students understood the way a half adder and a full adder
worked with the truth tables, before they wrote a line of code. Yes, they had to
understand how XOR gates worked or else they didn't deserve the luxury of using
software to carry out arithmetic operations.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Nowadays, I tell them that they are unlikely to
ever worry about how that works in their professional life. Perhaps off on a
tangent, but if we are looking at what is the best programming language for
children to learn in Period 1, and in Period 2 we are teaching students VET IT
and what they need to go out and work in industry next year and the period after
that we are teaching Cisco students how to set up a network in the "real" world
through a simulated or school based problem then you will forgive my oversight
if I stray into what is needed in industry as part of what they are doing. Maybe
I am suffering VET fatigue.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">In year 11, where students may be taking
programming for the first time ever, the assessment requires that students look
at IT Pathways of their chosen language and problem scenario as it exists in the
market place. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I do long for the good old days where I could teach
machine language, then assembly, then Pascal, then a 4GL and insist on the
correct use of data types, structures and avoidance of type mismatches and probe
with a purely inquiry based approach to what is the most educationally suitable
language for students.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Sadly, it is a luxury I simply don't have
anymore.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I have put on my safety helmet in anticipation of
the upcoming assault on my betrayal of my educational calling........
:))))</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Take Care</font></div>
<div>Kevork Krozian<br>Edulists Creator and Administrator<br><a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">www.edulists.com.au</a><br><a href="mailto:kevork@edulists.com.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
kevork@edulists.com.au</a><br></div>
<blockquote style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;"><div><span class="e" id="q_11512359380d66f4_1">
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">
<b>From:</b>
<a title="billkerr@gmail.com" href="mailto:billkerr@gmail.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">Bill Kerr</a>
</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b> <a title="yr7-10it@edulists.com.au" href="mailto:yr7-10it@edulists.com.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
Year 7 - 10 Information Technology
Teachers' Mailing List</a> </div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, September 17, 2007 3:52
PM</div>
<div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Yr7-10it] Scratch,
Gamemaker, VB.net, Python,PHP and MySQL - Programming for all levels</div>
<div><br></div>On 9/17/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Kevork Krozian</b> <<a href="mailto:Kroset@novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">Kroset@novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au
</a>>
wrote:<br>
<div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Check
out <a href="http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm</a> for a
"league table" of language popularity.<br>The order of popularity starting
from the top is Java, C , (Visual) Basic, PHP
.... with python at Number 8. <br>Scratch is 2new to
be listed it seems - even in the top 50.</blockquote>
<div><br>Kevork,<br>It worries me that you present this league table in the
context of a discussion about the merits of programming languages for
children, without seeing the need for an accompanying argument. <br><br>I
point this out not just to be difficult but because I don't agree with the
unstated implication that vocational factors ought to trump educational
factors - surely something else needs to be said when such as table is
presented? <br><br>ie. what weight ought to be assigned to the league
table<br>note their disclaimer: "Observe that the TIOBE index is not about the
<i>best</i> programming language or the language in which <i>most lines of
code</i> have been written."<br><a href="http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm</a><br><br>I
would have thought that Harvard University using scratch as an introduction to
their Java programming course ought to count for something
<br> </div></div>-- <br>Bill Kerr<br><a href="http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/</a><br><a href="http://www.users.on.net/%7Ebillkerr/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
http://www.users.on.net/~billkerr/</a><br></span></div>skype:
billkerr2006 _______________________________________________ <span class="q"><br><a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.edulists.com.au </a>
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