There is both some overlap and need to explain more (similarities / differences) b/w my list and tony's list<br><br>plus a few important things are left off both our lists:<br><ul><li>the language has been designed with children's learning developmental needs taken into consideration (logo pioneered this perhaps)
</li><li>ability to run the finished product on the web<br></li><li>good, cheap resource materials available for educators / teachers</li></ul>tony: "easy entry level programming with drag and drop programming"<br>
bill: "good visual drag and drop of some type"<br><br>The drag and drop candidates are game maker, scratch and etoys (there maybe some others?)<br>my ranking of easy entry for those brought up on conventional interfaces would be scratch, then game maker then etoys
<br>etoys is unconventional with its morphic interface but which I think is better, so there is a steeper initial learning / adaptation curve for those brought up on a conventional windows GUI<br><br>tony: "top end extensibility through fully featured text based programming"
<br>bill: "low entry - high ceiling"<br><br>The transition from visual (easier but limited) to text is important even though you can do a hell of a lot with the visual languages mentioned above. I would like to investigate this issue more but at the moment would be inclined to agree with tony that game maker wins out here. From what I know scratch is a non starter and doesn't offer high ceiling. Etoys is good in this respect - you make scripts from tiles and you can observe the text code with one click. Game maker is similar when I think about it - one click to see the pseudo code of what the drag and drop has made. The transition from etoys to the more advanced smalltalk programming is far from smooth; in some respects they are two different programs co-existing within the same program. Developmental work on new versions of etoys is going ahead as we speak though. That leaves game maker where at least the visual programming and the text code can co-exist readily in the same program.
<br><br>tony: "licencing which allows kids to continue to work at home for free"<br>bill: "ability to share fully with other children in the world, rich or poor (ie. open source, multi-lingual, its on the OLPC)"
<br><br>One of the problems with game makers free version accompanied with a more advanced proprietary version is that if you want to share with everyone (including poor kids who live in Africa) you then have to restrict yourself to the tools available in the free version. I became frustrated with this when making africa country game. Game maker free version only offers arrays for storing storing and manipulating data. To access the other data structures (stacks, queues, lists, maps and priority queues) you need to proprietary version. I don't like the idea of being restricted in what I can share with those who can't afford it.
<br><br>btw I read the article that tony linked to:<br>Objective Comparison of Languages for Teaching Introductory Programming<br><br>I think it's a poor article but it did bring home to me the difficulties involved for teachers in selecting a programming language for use with students. Not only is there a lot of languages to choose from there is also a lot of different opinions about "objective comparisons"
<br><br>- Bill<br>-- <br>Bill Kerr<br><a href="http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/</a><br><a href="http://www.users.on.net/%7Ebillkerr/" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
http://www.users.on.net/~billkerr/
</a><br>skype: billkerr2006<br><br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 9/15/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Tony Forster</b> <<a href="mailto:forster@ozonline.com.au" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
forster@ozonline.com.au</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Bill wrote:<br>"here's my list, which is what inclines me towards etoys / squeak:"
<br><br>An alternate list:<br>easy entry level programming with drag and drop programming<br>a true versatile programming environment, not just selecting from limited<br>scenarios<br>top end extensibility through fully featured text based programming
<br>licencing which allows kids to continue to work at home for free<br><a href="http://tonyforster.blogspot.com/2007_02_01_archive.html" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://tonyforster.blogspot.com/2007_02_01_archive.html
</a><br>Game programming tools
<br><br>or<br> An Objective Comparison of Languages for Teaching Introductory Programming<br><a href="http://www.it.uu.se/research/group/upcerg/Publications/proceedingsKoliCalling2006/research2.pdf" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
http://www.it.uu.se/research/group/upcerg/Publications/proceedingsKoliCalling2006/research2.pdf
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