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<p>David, Kevork and colleagues</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I would welcome feedback like this at that session - thank you for this contribution.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Regards</p>
<p>Paula</p>
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<div style="DIRECTION: ltr" id="divRpF760989"><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au [sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au] on behalf of Vella, James [jvella@mackillop.vic.edu.au]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 25 June 2012 8:33 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> sofdev@edulists.com.au<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Year 12 SofDev] DB's in SD<br>
</font><br>
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<p class="MsoPlainText"><a name="_MailEndCompose">Maybe this is something we should bring up with Paula at the Consultation session at #VITTA2012?</a></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span> </span></b><b><span style="COLOR: #c00000; FONT-SIZE: 15pt">Mr James Vella</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: green">Associate Head of Technology - ICT</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: green">Mathematics/IT Teacher</span></i><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: green">MacKillop College</span></i><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: green">Russell Street Werribee, VIC 3030</span></i><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'"></span></p>
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<i><u><span style="COLOR: blue">jvella</span></u></i></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><a title="mailto:snoonan@mackillop.vic.edu.au" href="mailto:s@mackillop.vic.edu.au" target="_blank"><i><span style="COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt" lang="FR">@mackillop.vic.edu.au</span></i></a></span><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">( </span>
<i><span style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt" lang="FR">phone: +61-3-87345200</span></i><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">+ </span>
<i><span style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt" lang="FR">Fax: +61-3-87345261</span></i><span></span></p>
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<i><span style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt" lang="FR">mail: PO Box 522, Werribee VIC 3030</span></i><span></span></p>
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</span></i><i><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">web: </span></i><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><a title="http://www.mackillop.vic.edu.au/" href="http://www.mackillop.vic.edu.au/" target="_blank"><i><span style="COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">www.mackillop.vic.edu.au</span></i></a></span><span></span></p>
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<p class="MsoPlainText"><span lang="EN-US">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au [mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of sofdev-request@edulists.com.au<br>
Sent: Sunday, 24 June 2012 9:55 AM<br>
To: sofdev@edulists.com.au<br>
Subject: sofdev Digest, Vol 87, Issue 24</span></p>
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<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Today's Topics:</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> 1. Re: Databases in SD (Kevork Krozian)</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">----------------------------------------------------------------------</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Message: 1</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 09:55:13 +1000</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">From: "Kevork Krozian" <kevork@edulists.com.au></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Databases in SD</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">To: "'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'"</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <sofdev@edulists.com.au></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Message-ID: <007401cd519b$a1d0aa40$e571fec0$@edulists.com.au></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Hi David,</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> Speaking of authentic learning, my students ( the clients of the solutions such as Parent teacher interview booking online system ) have carried out the User Acceptance Testing and given feedback that has been used to modify the solution.
The admin have given their own feedback on summary data needs and this has also been used for improvement purposes. This has fed into discussion about testing and the follow up to user feedback.
</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Isn't this what the teaching should strive to deliver ? Experiential and authentic learning ?
</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I agree about normalisation not being necessary as it is not essential with the programming.
</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">With the programming, students are still required to understand and implement data types ( and casting ) , selection, iteration , looping, function calls with parameter passing. OOP is introduced with inheritance only for demonstration
purposes but a few students have programmed in this way.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Speak soon</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Kevork Krozian</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Edulists Creator Administrator</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">www.edulists.com.au</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">tel: 0419 356 034</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">From: sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au [mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au]</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">On Behalf Of David Mitchell</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Sent: Saturday, 23 June 2012 9:19 PM</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Databases in SD</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Well articulated Kevork. I agree whole heartedly. We are one of the few year</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">12 subjects that can use authentic learning without hampering timeframes / skimping on content that is directly related to industry.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">If our students are looking at programming as a career, building interfaces that utilise MySQL or Microsoft SQL servers are pretty much a given when developing data driven systems. We wouldn't need to look at the normalisation of databases
/ SQL scripts but could provide a base for students to link into and then manipulate as necessary.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I would fully support bringing back the use of databases, simply as a direct link to authentic learning!</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Kind regards,</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Dave</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Description: signature</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">From: Kevork Krozian <kevork@edulists.com.au></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Reply-To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List <sofdev@edulists.com.au></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Date: Saturday, 23 June 2012 8:53 PM</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List <sofdev@edulists.com.au></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Databases in SD</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Hi Mark,</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Perhaps we need to shift this to the SD list, hence the redirection.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">There was a genuine issue with some languages having IDEs that allowed a wizard driven connection to database storage. Hence the ban on use of databases.
</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">My position as a teacher of SD, and no more than that, is one where a solution built to operate on a network ( prototype or full implementation ) implies multi user, implies a large number of people.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">The SD course has brought in a larger and deeper look at networks, security, multi users and multiple access devices ( mobile, desktop, wireless etc ).</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I will leave it up to the advocates of "files are best in that environment"</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">to make their case. In fact, I have nothing against anyone who wishes to use files. I do have a problem with the fact my students are prevented from using database technologies in Yr 12. Specifically MySQL with PHP. They can use Python
and MySQL as well for what it is worth. </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I speak from the perspective of having built school wide solutions in the very context that the Study Design describes ( 1500 users, remote and local access, security, mobile devices, multiple OSs, etc ). Examples include Parent Teacher
interviews bookings online, submission and monitoring and allocating Extras for teachers absent and away from school, Resource booking systems and monitoring and logging of web traffic through the school internet connections.
</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Each of these have been built with PHP and MySQL and not files for storage.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">The web interface has meant one solution works for all devices rather than multiple apps ( xcode for ipad and iphone, java for android etc before we discuss MAC vs Windows laptops, desktops. Some of these solutions have been purchased
by other schools.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">My students have seen these solutions built, developed and deployed before their eyes. The solutions have not been focussed on the database. The programming has neither been trivial nor wizard driven. In fact in Yr 11 the students have
built, simpler versions of these. They use Dreamweaver for the html and CSS. The PHP is written in Notepad++ and MySQL statements are inserted to interact with the database. They really enjoy it. Incidentally we have also explored privacy and related issues
with these solutions. </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">They have asked why they can't do this in Yr 12 and have to use files. This experiential learning is not available to them in their own demonstration of learning and assessment.
</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">In fact, I also teach the Diploma in IT Networking ICA50411. One of the units is titled ICAWEB502A Create dynamic web pages . This requires use of server side and client side programming. Quite similar to what the Yr 11 students achieved
with some extensions. This is neither trivial, nor wizard driven. </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I will not be losing sleep over this issue. But, the driver for it was to improve the poor student scores in the written exam on the algorithm questions. I believe these have not improved this year despite the banning of databases.
I am happy for teachers of other databases to make their own case since I am not supporting wizard driven database interaction, but where is the rationale for banning my use of MySQL as a database in SD now ?</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Speak soon</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Kevork Krozian</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">SD teacher</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Ringwood SC</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">From: itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au [mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au]</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">On Behalf Of Mark KELLY</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Sent: Saturday, 23 June 2012 2:44 PM</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">To: Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] RDBMS systems</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">P'raps not so much irony as much as concentrating each study on its core business.
</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">ITA is about databases, so MySQL is valid. </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">SD is about programming, but apparently too many people were turning it into a database programming exercise and losing track of programming fundamentals.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I can see VCAA's point in explicitly banning database extensions in SD: it certainly seemed to be distracting people towards the end of the previous study design.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">On 22 June 2012 22:28, Brett Groves <<a href="mailto:groves.brett.g@edumail.vic.gov.au" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">groves.brett.g@edumail.vic.gov.au</span></a>></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">wrote:</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">A delicious irony that we can teach MySQL in Applications but not in Software Development, sighs, reaches for red wine.....</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Regards,</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Brett Groves</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">ICT Manager</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Croydon Maroondah College - Croydon Campus</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">On 15/06/12 13:29, Roland Gesthuizen wrote: </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">I have been a bit quiet this year (only teaching year 11 IT)
</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Was hugely surprised at the ISTE conferences in the USA how large FMP is overseas, especially in the education sector. I think the past dominance of MS Access is perhaps a local thing.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Crikey, wasn't always been like that. I still remember teaching DBase III and in some ways, it seemed to be a more explicit towards teaching databases and computational thinking. I rediscovered this when I revisited the PHP SQL programming
in Kevorks splendid book.</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Regards Roland</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> </p>
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<p class="MsoPlainText">On 12/06/2012, at 12:01 PM, Laurie Savage wrote:</p>
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<p class="MsoPlainText">Outside of the Arts/Design world do you know of any major users or large scale deployments of FMP?</p>
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<p class="MsoPlainText">_______________________________________________</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">http://www.edulists.com.au</span></a> - FAQ, resources, subscribe, unsubscribe IT Applications Mailing List kindly supported
by <a href="http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vce/studies/infotech/itapplications3-4.html" target="_blank">
<span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vce/studies/infotech/itapplications3-4.html</span></a> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority <br>
<a href="http://www.vitta.org.au" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">http://www.vitta.org.au</span></a> - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc <br>
<a href="http://www.swinburne.edu.au/ict/schools" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">http://www.swinburne.edu.au/ict/schools</span></a> - Swinburne University</p>
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<p class="MsoPlainText">_______________________________________________</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">http://www.edulists.com.au</span></a> - FAQ, resources, subscribe, unsubscribe IT Applications Mailing List kindly supported
by <a href="http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vce/studies/infotech/itapplications3-4.html" target="_blank">
<span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vce/studies/infotech/itapplications3-4.html</span></a> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority <br>
<a href="http://www.vitta.org.au" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">http://www.vitta.org.au</span></a> - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc <br>
<a href="http://www.swinburne.edu.au/ict/schools" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">http://www.swinburne.edu.au/ict/schools</span></a> - Swinburne University</p>
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<p class="MsoPlainText">--</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Mark Kelly</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Manager of ICT, Reporting, IT Learning Area McKinnon Secondary College McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia Direct line / Voicemail: +613 8520 9085, Fax +613 9578 9253
<a href="mailto:kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</span></a> << use this, not Edumail please!</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">VCE IT Lecture Notes: <a href="http://vceit.com" target="_blank">
<span style="COLOR: windowtext; TEXT-DECORATION: none">http://vceit.com</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Moderator: IT Applications Edulist</p>
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<p class="MsoPlainText">--</p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">An E-flat, a C, and a G go into a bar. The bartender says, "I'm sorry, but I can't serve minors."</p>
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<p class="MsoPlainText">End of sofdev Digest, Vol 87, Issue 24</p>
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