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<p class=MsoPlainText>Hi Guy,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Reading through this thread, I take it you are a fan of
the new course?!! This was one of the things that the SD ones of us on
the writing panel felt strongly about – bringing the programming back
into software development. Having said that – GUI design and
construction is still a very valuable skill and one that does still exist in
the ‘new’ course. The design of a strong GUI can eliminate
the need to write a ton of fiddly validation code and also makes it easier for
the user to actually use the program the ‘right way’. I don’t
think you disagree with me – I get the impression that it was just the ‘balance’
between the GUI and the code that was your main concern.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Having said that, it is probably not a common thing in
industry to have programmers creating GUI’s as it is a very particular
skill (and programmers tend not to be any good at it!) However, what we
want to give students is an appreciation of all aspects of SD – and knowing
the pros and cons of a well designed GUI and the effect that this can have on
the code is pretty important.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Adrian<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#002060'>Adrian Janson </span></b><b><span style='font-size:7.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";color:#002060'>B.Sc, Dip.Ed, M.Ed<br>
</span></b><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#002060'>VITTA President<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#002060'>Director of ICT<br>
</span></b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#244061'>Melbourne High School, Forrest Hill, South Yarra, Victoria 3141
Australia.<br>
Phone: 03 9826 0711 International: +61 3 9826 0711<br>
Fax: 03 9826 8767 International: +61 3 9826 8767<br>
E-mail: <a href="janson.adrian.a@edumail.vic.gov.au"><span style='color:blue'>janson.adrian.a@edumail.vic.gov.au</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#244061'>Website: <a href="http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au/"><span
style='color:blue'>http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au</span></a></span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#244061'>Blog: <a href="http://jansona.edublogs.org/" target="_blank"><span
style='color:blue'>http://jansona.edublogs.org</span></a></span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><span lang=EN-US>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au [mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au] On
Behalf Of Guy Flaherty<br>
Sent: Friday, 2 July 2010 10:40 AM<br>
To: sofdev@edulists.com.au<br>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Back to BASIC(s)</span></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Robert,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>HID is important to understand, but is it is not usually
done by programmers as they are rarely any good at it. A program GUI designed
by a programmer is usually a terrible one, and I would prefer to have a good
programmer work on the program and let a good User Interface specialist work on
that part. Not always possible I know, but one can hope.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>The thing that I find dislike is that the GUI is only a
small part of computer programming, and yet gets far too much attention for me.
I can, and do, write a lot of code that never appears in any GUI application,
and yet is a core part of a system. With the way applications are moving to
being web based, GUI also seems to be losing some of its importance as
well. I simply feel students know and like GUI stuff, as they use it all the
time, but I want to show them what is behind it that makes up most of the
programming for applications they are using without them even realising it. Say
for example you have a nice GUI to configure you wireless settings on your
mobile. The GUI is just a shell and doesn't really do anything except pass
options and data to the actual utility that talks to the hardware, creates the
connection and provides the monitoring of it. I find students often feel the
GUI part is doing all this, and don't realise they can delve a lot deeper to
see what is a!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> ctually happening underneath. The level of
abstraction for programs these days does make teaching programming a bit more
difficult than before. Companies making every effort to 'simplify' their
products, especially be heavily restricting functionality, means students get
little opportunity to use software in a more 'complex' form.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>I have broken down tasks this year using Object Oriented
programming in a simple form, and this seems to have gone over well with my
year 12 students. They really like the way code can be 'reused' and how objects
share that code for consistency, making their jobs a bit simpler. On the plus
side, if they get a handle on this sufficiently, joining the classes they make
into signal and slot type GUI apps is not too much extra for them to learn. I
just always wish they could do without the GUI and not have to worry about
individual language conventions that are pretty much inherent in GUI
development. Python for example has the following GUI toolkits I have to choose
from: Tk, PyQt, PyGtk, WxWidgets, Java and more I think. None of these are
written in python, they are just wrappers around other stuff. Yet python is an
approved language?! I think some of the other languages are similar too. Ruby,
PHP, Perl all don't have native GUI toolkits unless I am mistaken. So I really
have !<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText> to teach students two languages at least to make
GUI apps, the programming language and the toolkit's 'language'.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>I suppose my opinion is simply that programming != GUI,
so why does the study design force it on us. If teachers want to teacher
students to make GUI apps, outstanding, but why do we all have to do that. Why
can't I teach my students how to create a network monitoring solution that only
communicates with users by automatic email messages, for example. Grumble
grumble ....<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>>> "Timmer-Arends" 30/06/10
5:10 PM >>><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>I was going to second Laurie's suggestion but now I guess
I'll have to third<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Guy and Laurie's suggestions for all the same reasons. I
presented it to my<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Y10s but didn't make the decison to go this way until
part way through the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>semester, so opted for Portable Python because it
meant that I could run it<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>from a network folder (techs didn't have to put it onto
the image). A big<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>plus I found with this implementation of Python was the
IDE - it meant<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>students could focus on programming and not have to worry
about separate<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>editors, interpreters etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Can I just say in defence of the GUI approach in SD (but
not the Access<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>part) that it brings two benefits: having students think
about human<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>interface design; and more importantly, allowing students
to break a task<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>down into obvious chunks - it encourages/scaffolds a kind
of top-down<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>approach which I think is educationally useful.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Regards<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Robert T-A<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Brighton SC<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>From: "Guy Flaherty" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>To: <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 2:04 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Back to BASIC(s)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>I second Laurie's suggestion of going with Python. I
use it in Year 12 and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>in a Year 10 IT Elective and it is very good for
teaching programming<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>basics. Last year I taught game programming with it
to Year 10 students and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>they managed to get a fair bit out of it, with a good
number electing to do<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>Software Development this year.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Python actually lends itself to teaching programming
because of the way<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> you are 'forced' to write more readable code and by
being a fairly<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> consistent language. If you do manage to have any
students who become<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> adapt at programming in it, you can easily extend it
in almost any<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> direction as well, due to its high level of real
world application use.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> One of my pet peeves with Software Development is
that we actually have to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> create a GUI application. I am not sure why this is
specified, as I would<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> prefer to concentrate on the actually programming
and less on event-based<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> actions that can be a lot like making a form in
Access. I would like to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> actually concentrate on things like network
applications and client/server<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> stuff instead of GUI layouts. I find the students
actually start to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> appreciate that there is more to computers and
programming once you stop<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> doing everything in a GUI. It is just hard work to
convince them that it<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> will be interesting and fun if they give it a go!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Good luck with your course,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Guy Flaherty<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Xavier College<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>>>> Laurie Savage 30/06/10 1:46 PM
>>><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Nice approach Mark; have you thought about Python?
I've been playing<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> around<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> with it with a good year 9 class and they seem to
get it. My reasoning is<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> that simple Pyhton scripts read very much like
structured English so as<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> long as<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> the kid can grasp the logic the syntax more or less
follows and OO and GUI<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> programming can follow in the same language.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Laurie Savage<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Pascoe Vale Girls College<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Just recently, on Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 01:07:23PM
+1000 in fact, Mark<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> KELLY mentioned:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Hi All.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> While I haven't had an SD class for a while (low
enrolments and all), I<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> will<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> be taking a year 10 IT elective in the coming
semester which is sort of a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> SD<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> precursor.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Having been annoyed in the past by programming
introductions that<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> stressed<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> the GUI at the expense of 'real' programming
(e.g. the spent most of<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> their<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> time manipulating object properties and never
discovered variables,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> arrays,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> loops and logic) I have decided to go back to
basics... literally.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> To force the kids to focus on fundamentals I
wanted to start with good<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> ol'<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> QuickBASIC that has no GUI at all. Alas,
it proved impossible to get it<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> to<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> run under Win7. That's when I found QB64
at http://www.qb64.net.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> This is a nice rendition of reverse engineering
QB that will work happily<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> in<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> a Win7 64 bit environment. It will be good
to get the kiddies away from<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> frills and back to the meat-and-vegies of
programming. Only then will I<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> get<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> them into GUI and OOP.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Enjoy the hols<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Mark<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> -- <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Mark Kelly<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Manager - Information Systems<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> McKinnon Secondary College<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> School Phone +613 8520 9000<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> School Fax +613 9578 9253<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Korma: the philosophy that what you get out of a
curry depends on what<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> you<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> put into it.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> http://www.edulists.com.au - FAQ, Subscribe,
Unsubscribe<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly
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<p class=MsoPlainText>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian
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<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Authority and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> http://www.vitta.org.au - VITTA Victorian
Information Technology<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>> Teachers Association Inc<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> -- <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Laurie Savage<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>
====================================================================<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Markbook/Moodle Coordinator::Pascoe Vale Girls
College::03 9306 2544<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>
====================================================================<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoPlainText>> and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>
http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> http://www.vitta.org.au - VITTA Victorian
Information Technology Teachers<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Association Inc<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Scanned by Sonar.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Date: 2010-06-30 13:45:37.321<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> From: sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> To: g.flaherty@xavier.vic.edu.au<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Profile: Default_In<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Mail id: challenge-7869517999qzj-0<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>><o:p> </o:p></p>
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