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<DIV><FONT size=2>Hi Robert and Andrew Barry,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2> Despite repeated requests from more than
one person both on and off list to "Andrew Barry" to identify himself
in terms of the school he works at along with his real name if relevant, "Andrew
Barry" has simply ignored these emails.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I have reminded "Andrew Barry" of the list netiquette
guidelines , specifically item 9 both by confirmation email during
subscription and also found on the edulists home page : </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>9. Always identify his or her self with a clear signature that shows name,
location of school ( if applicable ) and capacity in which participating on the
list eg. Teacher of the subject , faculty leader, industry
representative </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Despite very polite, tactful and diplomatic emails, we have
had no luck in either getting "Andrew Barry" to comply or to reply to
the request.. During confirmation of request for subscription the welcome
message states if the prospective member is unhappy about any of the conditions
of membership to immediately unsubscribe with link supplied. Again ,
"Andrew Barry" has refused to give the professional courtesy he expects in
return, when he has written to the list or helps a debate move along with his
input. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Of course there are bigger issues to consume my time as
Administrator, or a teacher or a private citizen, especially on a Sunday
night or at any other time, but I do feel "Andrew Barry" has disappointed, no
annoyed a number of people with his attitude towards this forum. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Therefore, I am removing the account <A
href="mailto:jagguy999@gmail.com)"><FONT
size=3>jagguy999@gmail.com</FONT></A> due to netiquette guideline breaches
and blocking it from resubscribing. If "Andrew Barry" reappears in
another incarnation we'll deal with it then.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>What a stupid waste of time to compose this
ridiculous email as if I am dealing with a Year 8 student
misbehaving. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Good night </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Kevork Krozian<BR>Edulists Creator and Administrator<BR><A
href="http://www.edulists.com.au">www.edulists.com.au</A><BR><A
href="mailto:kevork@edulists.com.au">kevork@edulists.com.au</A><BR></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=robert@yinnar.com href="mailto:robert@yinnar.com">Robert Hind</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=sofdev@edulists.com.au
href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">Year 12 Software Development Teachers'
Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, April 27, 2008 3:24
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re:
Industry practice</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Have I misssed something along the way?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I still have no idea who Andrew Barry (<A
href="mailto:jagguy999@gmail.com)">jagguy999@gmail.com)</A> is.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>So he might be a valuable member of our list or he may
be a rogue or a student or ?????</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Please can we have some sort of identification with each
email to the list..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Robert Hind (Semi-retired)<BR>Ex Traralgon and Ashwood<BR></DIV>
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style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jagguy999@gmail.com href="mailto:jagguy999@gmail.com">andrew
barry</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=sofdev@edulists.com.au
href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">Year 12 Software Development Teachers'
Mailing List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, April 27, 2008 1:02
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re:
Industry practice</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Hi,<BR><BR>I believe a subject should produce quality
outcomes. A programming course that provides students with knowledge to
create things like a 2D game is a quality output. What is better that a
student can complete simple form that calculates numbers compared to a
a fully functional 2D game that is graphical and uses a wide range of
functionality that a programming language offers. <BR><BR>At the end of the
course if parents/potential students see an interesting interactive
piece of software compared to a form that calculates numbers they are more
likely to be impressed.<BR>We could incorporate physics and maths into the
course eg how an object falls from a height using physics and use a program
to demonstrate how this looks. We can actually use what students have learnt
in other subjects making IT programming more integrated with other subjects.
The scope is huge.<BR><BR>I remember seeing yr9 students being impressed
that we are creating such software , they wanted to undertake IT as it looks
like fun. Also schools like to display students work for parents/teachers
and quality software is impressive.<BR>Teachers like myself need to make an
impact because of short term contract work. A quality output is a good start
to retain employment. Contract employment is everywhere.<BR><BR><BR>To learn
gantt/pert charts takes weeks of constant work, DFD's takes weeks to do
properly, and why do we need memorize such information like the
difference between a business object and a business goal in IT?<BR><BR>Why
are students learning applications anyway like Access,Dreamweaver because
wont these change in years to come? Wasnt this an argument against just
learning a programming language?<BR><BR><BR>Do woodwork students produce a
finished item or do they produce a 2 bits of wood with a join. Have they
spent their other time constructing lengthy designs, and doing essays about
tree regrowth and how important this is too society, or business models of
wood factories?<BR><BR><BR>Remember many teachers need to sell their
subjects to get the numbers, and we cant just rely on them turning up and
going along with all our ideas of a rounded education. I know we are in
education but IT is subject (to a point) of market
forces.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Adrian Janson <<A
href="mailto:janson.adrian.a@edumail.vic.gov.au">janson.adrian.a@edumail.vic.gov.au</A>>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV lang=EN-AU bgcolor="white" link="blue" vlink="purple">
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Hi
everyone,</SPAN></P>
<DIV class=Ih2E3d>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">>you are assuming of course that a
study which deals only with those things relating directly to programming
will attract students and bring them back in droves.</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">And this is – I
believe – a big assumption!</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Let us say that
there are a core of IT students at the moment who are in Year 10 and
preparing to undertake VCE next year. What percentage of these student do
you think look at the course outline and decide "hmmm… looks like there is
not enough programming… I won't be taking that course – even though it is
what I am interested in..!"</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Do you think this
number is 5%? 10%, 50%! More?</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">In my experience –
the students that are keen on IT – and the ones that I are undertaking my
Year 10 programming elective – are carrying on to enrol in SD3/4 –
regardless of the course content. Now I don't mean to imply that the
course content is not important – however, I think that the students that
we are wanting to attract are the ones that are not necessarily into
programming! They are the ones that have not considered undertaking
an IT career. </SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Adrian</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">BTW: My off-list
email to you Andrew was in regards to your lack of
identification.</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
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<P><B><SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au"
target=_blank>sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au"
target=_blank>sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</A>] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Timmer-Arends<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, 26 April 2008 3:08 PM
<DIV class=Ih2E3d><BR><B>To:</B> Year 12 Software Development Teachers'
Mailing List<BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Wj3C7c><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry
practice</DIV></DIV></SPAN>
<P></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Wj3C7c>
<P> </P>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hello Andrew</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">you are assuming of course that a study
which deals only with those things relating directly to programming will
attract students and bring them back in droves.</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Regards</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Robert T-A</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Brighton SC</SPAN></P></DIV>
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<DIV>
<P><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original Message -----
</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<A title=jagguy999@gmail.com href="mailto:jagguy999@gmail.com"
target=_blank>andrew barry</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A title=sofdev@edulists.com.au
href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au" target=_blank>Year 12 Software
Development Teachers' Mailing List</A> </SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Saturday, April 26, 2008 10:23
AM</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry
practice</SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P> </P></DIV>
<P>Hi,<BR><BR>No I havent received a off-topic email.<BR>I think i dont'
want an debate on why we should keep the status quo with IT. I
thought the idea was to encourage students to undertake further IT
courses beyond of yr12, and provide with them skills so they feel they
can do it?<BR><BR>With declining numbers in IT courses everywhere I
believe we need to argue for change , as I have said before. If we don't
initiate change then someone will do it for us, as business adopt a
school policy has threatened. I want a programming subject to teach and
another that deals with hands on with applications eg webpages,VBA etc.
Spread the other issues as components of unit 1 and 2.<BR><BR>If we
don't inspire kids in VCE then they dont go onto IT courses, and this
seems to be our current issue(except my classes where I have re jigged
things :).<BR>_______________________________________________ <BR><A
href="http://www.edulists.com.au"
target=_blank>http://www.edulists.com.au </A>IT Software Development
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- Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and <BR><A
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</A>- VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association
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- Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and <BR><A
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<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Wj3C7c>_______________________________________________ <BR><A
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</A>IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by <BR><A
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- Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and <BR><A
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VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association
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- Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and <BR><A
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