<HTML dir=ltr><HEAD><TITLE>sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 49</TITLE>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Calibri color=#000000 size=2>At the end of the day none of the Yr 12 IT curriculum is a pre-requisite for any tertiary IT course. They only really have to do Maths. From my perspective SD gives students an introduction to the areas of Systems and Software development. It doesn't pretend to be anything but. I've had past students come back and tell me that the introduction they got to DFD's and algorithms and the basic programming constructs helped them tackle these areas in depth in their IT degrees. What we ultimately do is demystify some of the difficult stuff so it's not such a shock to them the first time they come across it in their courses.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Calibri size=2>Ultimately what we should be doing as educators is communicating with the tertiary institutions and making Senior IT something that they would consider to be a prerequisite for their courses. Until that happens we are only going to attract the kids with a hardcore interest in IT.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV class=MsoAutoSig align=left><SPAN lang=EN-AU style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Brush Script MT'; mso-ansi-language: EN-AU"><FONT face=Forte color=#0000ff>Kelly Beattie<BR></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-AU style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; mso-ansi-language: EN-AU"><FONT face=Arial color=#000000>Leading Schools Fund Coordinator<BR></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-AU style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; mso-ansi-language: EN-AU"><FONT face=Arial color=#000000>Moondah Centre<BR></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-AU style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; mso-ansi-language: EN-AU"><FONT face=Arial color=#000000>Drouin Secondary College<BR>South Road, Drouin 3818<BR>Ph: (03) 5625 1002</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-AU style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; mso-ansi-language: EN-AU"><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT face=Arial color=#000000> </FONT></o:p></SPAN></DIV></DIV></EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au on behalf of sofdev-request@edulists.com.au<BR><B>Sent:</B> Fri 4/25/2008 2:15 AM<BR><B>To:</B> sofdev@edulists.com.au<BR><B>Subject:</B> sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 49<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
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<P><FONT size=2>Send sofdev mailing list submissions to<BR> sofdev@edulists.com.au<BR><BR>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<BR> <A href="http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev">http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev</A><BR>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<BR> sofdev-request@edulists.com.au<BR><BR>You can reach the person managing the list at<BR> sofdev-owner@edulists.com.au<BR><BR>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<BR>than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."<BR><BR><BR>Today's Topics:<BR><BR> 1. RE: Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks (MarkKelly)<BR> (Jack Matthews)<BR><BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 1<BR>Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 02:13:39 +1000<BR>From: Jack Matthews <jack_m_matthews@hotmail.com><BR>Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice -<BR> tertiarylinks (MarkKelly)<BR>To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"<BR> <sofdev@edulists.com.au><BR>Message-ID: <BLU142-W159B86E3DBBF644D1AC6A0A4E20@phx.gbl><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Hi<BR><BR><BR><BR>I have been following this topic for a while and it is similar to a complaint I<BR>posted about the course when I was teaching it (Not teaching it anymore or in Australia but<BR>will return someday so it is still of concern).<BR>I was teaching just before SD was introduced but having a look at the<BR>document it seemed only slightly different from the existing course.<BR><BR><BR><BR>This is how I felt about the course:<BR><BR><BR><BR>STRESSFUL – It was so difficult (especially being a new<BR>teacher) to decipher what was important for the exam and what was not. I think any good teacher wants to give their<BR>students the best chance during the exam and the lack of definite structure<BR>really caused huge stress and difficulties.<BR><BR><BR><BR>HOW TO FIX THIS – One way might be to separate the course<BR>into specific topics such as ‘programming’, ‘Legal issues’ etc. Then distribute<BR>this document outlining the percentage of the exam allocated to each area at<BR>the beginning of the year. This would<BR>really help teachers for class preparation and the amount of time to spend on<BR>each topic.<BR><BR><BR><BR>BORING (for me and<BR>the students)– The course had good points and bad points but generally the lack<BR>of depth – especially in programming – was really frustrating. By the end of the course the students that<BR>could not already program a computer still could not program a computer. The main reason for this was the time taken up<BR>by these mundane rote learning add on tasks. I can remember at university that it was only<BR>when I understood how to create simple computer programs that I actually<BR>understood “Systems Development”. Incidentally,<BR>this was a second year<BR> University course that<BR>covered DFDs, SDLC and other large scale development tools. I really think this stuff can be dropped at<BR>high school level.<BR><BR><BR><BR>HOW TO FIX THIS – Preferably introduce a course called ‘Computer<BR>Programming’ where the main emphasis is programming or alternatively cut down<BR>on the existing theory so that students can further develop their skills and<BR>come out of the course with confidence and a feeling they have achieved<BR>something. <BR><BR><BR>I agree with Andrew that once you learn one programming<BR>language well it is much easier to then transfer these skills to a different<BR>one. The argument that “When a student<BR>enters the workforce the languages will be different so there is no point<BR>teaching a specific language,” does not really hold up I’m afraid. As long as the student has a good grasp on one<BR>language (including syntax) they will be able to adapt to another one – if they<BR>have no computer language skills you can be darn sure they will not be able to<BR>pick up a new one. <BR><BR><BR><BR>“The IT industry is not made up entirely of<BR>programmers. There are animators, web designers, systems analysts and<BR>project managers just to name a few – none of whom necessarily have any<BR>knowledge of programming”<BR><BR><BR><BR>Animators need to know programming basics for scripting such<BR>as particle systems, Web designers should have a very good knowledge of<BR>programming especially with technologies such as JavaScript, ASP, PHP etc. True, a project manager may not need these<BR>skills but this guy is going to seriously get rolled when the programmer tells<BR>him that the email functionality is going to take a weeks work. I think a good knowledge of programming is<BR>useful for anyone in the computer field.<BR><BR><BR><BR>-Jack<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>From: janson.adrian.a@edumail.vic.gov.au<BR>To: sofdev@edulists.com.au<BR>Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks (MarkKelly)<BR>Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:17:48 +1000<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Hi Andrew,<BR><BR><BR><BR>The social implications of the various Physics topics probably<BR>takes up 5% of the course – which is comparable to the amount of the IT<BR>course that it takes up. It certainly doesn’t take up 50% of the<BR>course. However, at least 50% of the SD course is theory – and this<BR>is where you and I differ in opinion. I would not change this percentage –<BR>although my students would. Does this mean that I/we ‘should’<BR>change how much theory we change – at the whim of our students? Do<BR>our students have many years experience of the IT industry? Do our<BR>students really understand the challenges that they will face? No and<BR>No. In this respect – we do. I know most of my students would<BR>rather sit around during my classes and play computer games. Perhaps we<BR>should change the course - because this is what the students<BR>want??? Our enrolments will go up – and they will be attaining<BR>skills!!! But I am being sarcastic clearly….<BR><BR><BR><BR>>I certainly dont agree. I haven't heard this argument<BR>for a while but computer language basics never change . All you do is add<BR>on to what we know eg OOP /c++. We also have event driven GUI programs now<BR>instead of bottom up approach like VB.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Precisely<BR>my argument! Computer language basics never change – so why focus<BR>so much on pure syntax??? <BR><BR><BR><BR>>NO programming is a creative ability and you need time to do this. This is<BR>my whole argument is that being creative with programming requires knowledge<BR>you get from programming . You cant learn to make a space invaders game by<BR>doing DFD/pert charts and legal issues , you learn by knowing basics and<BR>building upon them. Programming is time consuming and it takes patience and<BR>practice.<BR><BR><BR><BR>OK.<BR>We agree that programming is a creative ability. To say that you can’t<BR>learn to program Space Invaders by doing DFDs / Pert charts and developing an<BR>understanding or legal issues is also quite correct. However – you are<BR>making a rather big assumption about our clientele. They don’t all<BR>want to be programmers. The IT industry is not made up entirely of programmers.<BR>There are animators, web designers, systems analysts and project managers just<BR>to name a few – none of whom necessarily have any knowledge of<BR>programming. I would suggest that if you want to develop programming<BR>skills amongst your clientele – you do it at Years 7-10 – design /<BR>write a course that will attract students to undertake the subject and meet<BR>their needs.<BR><BR><BR><BR>VCE is the pointy end of the secondary school experience and we<BR>have a responsibility to give our students a well rounded experience that will<BR>allow them to undertake further study (or not). I must confess that I<BR>cannot get my head around the notion that you think the legal and ethical<BR>components of the course are irrelevant. What does the average 17 year<BR>old understand about the law? In fact, the typical IT student has already<BR>accepted a number of illegal practices and regards them as being ‘OK’.<BR>How as educators can we ignore this?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Andrew, take my comments in the spirit in which they were<BR>intended – debate of all sorts is healthy!<BR><BR><BR><BR>BTW: Did you receive my email off-list? A reply as<BR>soon as possible would be appreciated.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Cheers,<BR><BR>Adrian<BR><BR><BR><BR>Adrian<BR>Janson,<BR><BR>VITTA<BR>President<BR><BR>Director<BR>of ICT,<BR><BR>Melbourne<BR>High School,<BR><BR>Forrest<BR>Hill, South Yarra 3141 Australia.<BR><BR>Phone:<BR>03 9826 0711 International: +61 3 9826 0711<BR><BR>Fax:<BR>03 9826 8767 International: +61 3 9826 8767<BR><BR>E-mail:<BR>janson.adrian.a@edumail.vic.gov.au<BR><BR>Website:<BR><A href="http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au/">http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au</A><BR><BR>Blog:<BR><A href="http://jansona.edublogs.org/">http://jansona.edublogs.org</A><BR><BR> <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>From: sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au<BR>[<A href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</A>] On Behalf Of andrew barry<BR><BR>Sent: Thursday, 24 April 2008 9:19 PM<BR><BR>To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List<BR><BR>Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks<BR>(MarkKelly)<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>As a teacher of physics – I have to say that the<BR>implications of the uses of nuclear energy is actually part of the course<BR>– and is a very important part of the course! Otherwise we are<BR>delivering content and not 'teaching'. In effect, I feel that teaching<BR>without this reflection creates students (- in fact, young people) without the<BR>skills to critically evaluate a topic. In the nuclear physics topic, I<BR>teach students the basics of building a nuclear bomb. Is this even<BR>ethical on it's own and in isolation?<BR><BR><BR><BR>does it make up 50% of the physics course? there is nothing wrong with this but<BR>IT has much time devoted to theory when they could be learning skills. So are<BR>you saying we should spend less time developing skills because we need to know<BR>theory?<BR><BR>>Here is where your argument<BR>is flawed – especially in a subject like IT. The skills that you<BR>are teaching are really a focus on process. The software and programming<BR>languages will have evolved by the time that your students enter the workforce<BR>– and they will then be relying upon the processes behind the creation of<BR>the software. If you have focused purely on skills – your students<BR>will not have the creative ability (and programming IS a creative process and<BR>not a mechanical one).<BR><BR><BR><BR>I certainly dont agree. I<BR>haven't heard this argument for a while but computer language basics never<BR>change . All you do is add on to what we know eg OOP /c++. We also have<BR>event driven GUI programs now instead of bottom up approach like VB.<BR><BR><BR><BR>NO programming is a creative ability and you need time to do this. This is my<BR>whole argument is that being creative with programming requires knowledge you<BR>get from programming . You cant learn to make a space invaders game by doing<BR>DFD/pert charts and legal issues , you learn by knowing basics and<BR>building upon them. Programming is time consuming and it takes patience and<BR>practice.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Being creative is my goal and only programming skills can help. Design<BR>theory comes in use here of course.<BR><BR><BR><BR>On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Adrian Janson <janson.adrian.a@edumail.vic.gov.au><BR>wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Hi Andrew,<BR><BR><BR><BR>The numbers of<BR>students taking IT subjects needs to increase as we have a demand for IT<BR>professionals in this country. Students are not undertaking IT courses<BR>for a variety of reasons – but I don't think that one of them is the<BR>course content – as students do not know much about this until they start<BR>the actual course. <BR><BR><BR><BR>>Students can be aware of such issues in earlier years<BR>but not VCE. If I do physics do i do a SAC on the social<BR>implications of devising nuclear energy? or how splitting the atom cuses<BR>more harm than good or in yr12 biology to we write essays on global warming?<BR><BR><BR><BR>As a teacher of<BR>physics – I have to say that the implications of the uses of nuclear<BR>energy is actually part of the course – and is a very important part of<BR>the course! Otherwise we are delivering content and not 'teaching'.<BR>In effect, I feel that teaching without this reflection creates students (- in<BR>fact, young people) without the skills to critically evaluate a topic. In<BR>the nuclear physics topic, I teach students the basics of building a nuclear<BR>bomb. Is this even ethical on it's own and in isolation?<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>>This type of thinking with IT is harming it<BR>because students are confused about what we think IT is. I used to teach at<BR>Tafe and Uni IT and It was mostly hands on or if it was theory they just did a<BR>theory subject. You don't get employed with weak skills and it is skills i want<BR>to teach and not social issues in VCE IT. That is just my opinion and maybe<BR>others agree or disagree.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Here is where your<BR>argument is flawed – especially in a subject like IT. The skills<BR>that you are teaching are really a focus on process. The software and<BR>programming languages will have evolved by the time that your students enter<BR>the workforce – and they will then be relying upon the processes behind<BR>the creation of the software. If you have focused purely on skills<BR>– your students will not have the creative ability (and programming IS a<BR>creative process and not a mechanical one).<BR><BR><BR><BR>In regards to the<BR>social issues of IT (and I take it you didn't catch the excellent – but<BR>highly disturbing report on 60 minutes two weeks ago?) – I feel it would<BR>socially irresponsible of us as educational leaders and the ones towards which<BR>our students look for guidance – to simply ignore social issues in this<BR>day and age. <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Cheers,<BR><BR>Adrian<BR><BR><BR><BR>Adrian<BR>Janson,<BR><BR>VITTA<BR>President<BR><BR>Director<BR>of ICT,<BR><BR>Melbourne<BR>High School,<BR><BR>Forrest<BR>Hill, South Yarra 3141 Australia.<BR><BR>Phone:<BR>03 9826 0711 International: +61 3 9826 0711<BR><BR>Fax:<BR>03 9826 8767 International: +61 3 9826 8767<BR><BR>E-mail:<BR>janson.adrian.a@edumail.vic.gov.au<BR><BR>Website:<BR><A href="http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au/">http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au</A><BR><BR>Blog:<BR><A href="http://jansona.edublogs.org/">http://jansona.edublogs.org</A><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>From: sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au<BR>[<A href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</A>]<BR>On Behalf Of andrew barry<BR><BR>Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2008 7:58 PM<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List<BR><BR>Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks<BR>(MarkKelly)<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Hi Adrian,<BR><BR><BR><BR>Well I can see forced change on the horizon by outside factors.<BR><BR>You shouldn't try to devise a plan to just bulk up numbers but the numbers need<BR>to increase. IF people are voting with their feet and then we need to listen.<BR><BR><BR><BR>>In maths you teach maths and in english you teach english. What maths sac<BR>asks you to explain a legal consideration for the calculations or asks to list<BR>any business considerations and document elaborate plans to reach an answer?<BR><BR>>Here is where I must strongly disagree with the stance<BR>that I (think) you are making. Our<BR><BR>students need to be aware of the legal issues and considerations involved in<BR>this subject. Watch the news almost any night of the week for evidence of<BR>this. If our SD students are to be the ICT leaders of tomorrow –<BR>then they need to be properly equipped in this regard.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Students can be aware of such issues in earlier years<BR>but not VCE. If I do physics do i do a SAC on the social<BR>implications of devising nuclear energy? or how splitting the atom cuses<BR>more harm than good or in yr12 biology to we write essays on global warming?<BR><BR><BR><BR>This type of thinking with IT is harming it because<BR>students are confused about what we think IT is. I used to teach at Tafe and<BR>Uni IT and It was mostly hands on or if it was theory they just did a theory<BR>subject. You don't get employed with weak skills and it is skills i want to<BR>teach and not social issues in VCE IT. That is just my opinion and maybe others<BR>agree or disagree.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Adrian Janson <janson.adrian.a@edumail.vic.gov.au><BR>wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Hi Andrew,<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>>The issue here is how to<BR>improve SD enrollment and relevance. The government is itching for change and<BR>even the adopt a schools policy sees IT as a major area .<BR><BR><BR><BR>Agreed – however, I am not prepared to concede to a<BR>plan in which we design curriculum merely to bulk up our numbers.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>>Who is going to decide what we teach? business!<BR><BR><BR><BR>Business is a driver certainly – but the 'tail does<BR>not wag the dog'. How does business know what it needs? Are the<BR>needs of business driven by the 'now' rather the 'future'? <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>>In maths you teach maths and in english you teach english. What maths sac<BR>asks you to explain a legal consideration for the calculations or asks to list<BR>any business considerations and document elaborate plans to reach an answer?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Here is where I must strongly disagree with the stance that<BR>I (think) you are making. Our students need to be aware of the legal<BR>issues and considerations involved in this subject. Watch the news almost<BR>any night of the week for evidence of this. If our SD students are to be<BR>the ICT leaders of tomorrow – then they need to be properly equipped in<BR>this regard.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>>IT subjects should just teach programming and some design<BR>theory.<BR><BR><BR><BR>There is a lot more than programming in IT *(did I just say<BR>that!!??!). The SD course has a good balance between programming and<BR>design elements – and I personally feel that that balance should be<BR>maintained.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Cheers,<BR><BR>Adrian<BR><BR><BR><BR>Adrian<BR>Janson,<BR><BR>VITTA<BR>President<BR><BR>Director<BR>of ICT,<BR><BR>Melbourne<BR>High School,<BR><BR>Forrest<BR>Hill, South Yarra 3141 Australia.<BR><BR>Phone:<BR>03 9826 0711 International: +61 3 9826 0711<BR><BR>Fax:<BR>03 9826 8767 International: +61 3 9826 8767<BR><BR>E-mail:<BR>janson.adrian.a@edumail.vic.gov.au<BR><BR>Website:<BR><A href="http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au/">http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au</A><BR><BR>Blog:<BR><A href="http://jansona.edublogs.org/">http://jansona.edublogs.org</A><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>From: sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au<BR>[<A href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</A>]<BR>On Behalf Of andrew barry<BR><BR>Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2008 5:25 PM<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List<BR><BR>Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks<BR>(MarkKelly)<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>The issue here is how to<BR>improve SD enrollment and relevance. The government is itching for change and<BR>even the adopt a schools policy sees IT as a major area .<BR><BR><BR><BR>Who is going to decide what we teach? business!<BR><BR><BR><BR>In maths you teach maths and in english you teach english. What maths sac asks<BR>you to explain a legal consideration for the calculations or asks to list any<BR>business considerations and document elaborate plans to reach an answer?<BR><BR><BR><BR>Maths teaches maths and IT should teach IT and not IT/business models. Does a<BR>maths sac ask for any historical q's about where the formulas come from? Is<BR>maths well rounded ?<BR><BR><BR><BR>IT subjects should just teach programming and some design theory.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:42 PM, Adrian Janson <janson.adrian.a@edumail.vic.gov.au><BR>wrote:<BR><BR>Hi everyone,<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>"Teachers are NOT curriculum materials developers."<BR><BR><BR><BR>I have to say that this statement goes against everything<BR>that I believe. I<BR><BR>have designed the Year 9 and Year 10 courses that I teach for IT - and I<BR><BR>revise and update them each year so that they are well suited to the cohort<BR><BR>that I teach. Who best understands the needs of our students? We<BR>each<BR><BR>do... and when it comes to VCE - each one of us is passionate about what<BR><BR>content is best suited to the future prospects of our VCE students and the<BR><BR>discipline of ICT as a whole. I for one and passionate about ICT and have<BR><BR>very definite views about what core skills ICT students need moving forward<BR><BR>- into a career path or their lives.<BR><BR><BR><BR>My 2c<BR><BR><BR><BR>Cheers,<BR><BR>Adrian<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR><BR>From: sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au<BR>[<A href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</A>]<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>On Behalf Of Timmer-Arends<BR><BR>Sent: Tuesday, 22 April 2008 6:25 PM<BR><BR>To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice -<BR>tertiarylinks<BR><BR>(MarkKelly)<BR><BR><BR><BR>>> Teachers are NOT curriculum materials developers.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Stephen, I can't agree with this statement either, simply because I believe<BR><BR>that is one of the crafts of being a teacher; ie being able to develop<BR><BR>material which will help convey concepts and skills to students (and that<BR><BR>might include dipping into whatever resources are available out there)<BR><BR><BR><BR>I had thought from earlier posts on this topic that you originally meant<BR><BR>that teachers should not be developing 'content'; ie deciding what skills<BR><BR>and knowledge students should have by the end of a year. And I have some<BR><BR>sympathy for this view - but maybe it's not what you meant in the first<BR><BR>place???<BR><BR><BR><BR>Anyway, I have come to the view that SDs need to be far more explicit and<BR><BR>specific about what knowledge/skills students should have by the end of Year<BR><BR><BR><BR>12. It is the final year of secondary enducation and I cannot see any other<BR><BR>way of guaranteeing any sort of standard. Providing flexibility in a course<BR><BR>so that teachers can meet the needs of their students is one thing (and<BR><BR>important), but allowing teachers to decide the depth themselves is<BR><BR>problematic, and I suspect leads to the exam becoming the standard setter,<BR><BR>and I don't know that that is a good thing.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Regards<BR><BR>Robert T-A<BR><BR>Brighton SC<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR><BR>From: "Mark Kelly" <kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au><BR><BR>To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"<BR><BR><sofdev@edulists.com.au><BR><BR>Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:07 PM<BR><BR>Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks<BR><BR>(MarkKelly)<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>><BR><BR>> Stephen Digby wrote:<BR><BR>>> Here here !!!<BR><BR>>> I say again.....<BR><BR>>><BR><BR><BR><BR>><BR><BR>> Oooh - I think we are. But we often rely on textbook writers to save<BR>us<BR><BR>> doing it ourselves. We still have to choose which materials we use.<BR><BR>><BR><BR>>> It is the curriculum design authorities responsibility to provide<BR><BR>>> classroom teaching materials to teachers (preferably with a range of<BR><BR>>> options !).<BR><BR>><BR><BR>> Is it? This would come as a surprise to most curriculum design<BR><BR>> authorities - except the ones in China, perhaps. If they DID provide<BR><BR>> anything more than sample teaching materials, I would be deeply worried<BR><BR>> about government interference.<BR><BR>><BR><BR>>> It is teachers responsibility to understand the content and their<BR><BR>>> students so that they can use these materials to plan, prep, teach,<BR><BR>>> correct, and communicate<BR><BR>>> Inevitably teachers will tweak for their own class and discover<BR><BR>>> possibilities, alternatives, improvements.<BR><BR>>> The second responsibility of the curriculum design authority should be<BR>to<BR><BR><BR><BR>>> systematically collect and utilise this field testing to improve the<BR><BR>>> curriculum design.<BR><BR>>> Two examples to show how simple these processes are:<BR><BR>>> - give the curriculum design to all publishers and ask for draft<BR><BR>>> responses in terms of classroom material support. Choose a single<BR><BR>>> publisher as the recommended support material for a definite period<BR>e.g<BR><BR>>> 3 years so that they have the chance to profit from their recommended<BR><BR>>> status.<BR><BR>><BR><BR>> I can already hear the screaming about this one. One vital feature of<BR><BR>> education is the freedom to use a variety of suitable resources at the<BR><BR>> discretion of the student and teacher.<BR><BR>> Choosing a "preferred" publisher would cause sales of other<BR>'unapproved'<BR><BR>> texts to evaporate, and considering the already-precarious IT textbook<BR><BR>> sales figures most other publishers would not bother releasing a text at<BR><BR>> all.<BR><BR>><BR><BR>> This would, in effect, result in a single textbook and stifle the richness<BR><BR><BR><BR>> of available opinion and pedagogical style. Publishers would be in<BR><BR>> revolt - quite justifiably.<BR><BR>><BR><BR>> And how will the 'approved' text be chosen? Do you expect VCAA to<BR>choose<BR><BR>> a publisher on the basis of a proposal and a sample chapter from<BR><BR>> publishers? For that would be the only way it could work: VCAA would<BR>have<BR><BR><BR><BR>> no finished textbook to base its judgement on because NO publisher is<BR><BR>> going to pay authors to create a full text and submit it in the hope of<BR><BR>> being picked. It just would not happen!<BR><BR>><BR><BR>> And if the preferred text was later found to be flawed in some way, the<BR><BR>> VCAA would be partially culpable. I don't think they want such<BR>problems<BR><BR>> being beaten to death on the nightly current affairs shows.<BR><BR>><BR><BR>> The only 'DEECD preferred' suppliers are, and should remain to be, related<BR><BR><BR><BR>> to the supply of software, hardware and leasing services. They must<BR>not<BR><BR>> extend to educational resources. If the VCAA started down this path they<BR><BR>> would be in a world of trouble. I think this is why they are so<BR>chary<BR><BR>> about recommending any resources apart from their own - the exception<BR><BR>> being the last 2 pages of the study design.<BR><BR>><BR><BR>><BR><BR>>> Of course, a recommendation is not a compulsion, and schools may<BR>choose<BR><BR>>> not to use the recommended resources. The likelihood that they<BR>be chosen<BR><BR><BR><BR>>> again will of course depend on the ongoing feedback re. the quality of<BR><BR>>> their resources and their continued support through the 3 years.<BR><BR>>> - require all teachers in all govt schools to provide copies of their<BR>sac<BR><BR><BR><BR>>> tasks with a sample answer from the teacher. (No cost. No<BR>copyright as<BR><BR>>> the work is owned by the government). Select the best 50 and<BR>publish on<BR><BR>>> line (No Cost) as exemplars to assist teachers in Year 2.<BR><BR>><BR><BR>> I bet VCAA is quite busy enough assessing the few tasks they call for<BR><BR>> during subject auditing. If every SAC had to be independently<BR>judged, the<BR><BR><BR><BR>> VCAA would either collapse under the weight, or grow to rival the size of<BR><BR>> the public service sector of Bulgaria. :-)<BR><BR>>> etc etc etc<BR><BR>><BR><BR>> But thanks for the interesting post, Stephen. I'm sure it will<BR>stimulate<BR><BR>> discussion.<BR><BR>>> ====================================================<BR><BR>>> Stephen Digby, Learning Technology Manager<BR><BR>>> mailto: digby.stephen.p@edumail.vic.gov.au<BR><BR>>> <<A href="mailto:digby.stephen.p@edumail.vic.gov.au">mailto:digby.stephen.p@edumail.vic.gov.au</A>> Cheltenham<BR>Secondary College<BR><BR><BR><BR>>> www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au<BR><<A href="http://www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au/">http://www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au/</A>><BR><BR>>> Ph: 613 955 55 955 Fx: 9555 8617 Mb: 0431-701-028<BR><BR>>> ====================================================<BR><BR>>> The other day somebody stole everything in my apartment and replaced<BR>it<BR><BR>>> with an exact replica... When my roommate came home I said,<BR>"Roommate,<BR><BR>>> someone stole everything in our apartment and replaced it with an<BR>exact<BR><BR>>> replica." He looked at me and said, "Do I know you?"<BR>Steven Wright<BR><BR>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au<BR><BR>>> [<A href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</A>] *On Behalf Of *Russell<BR>Quinn<BR><BR>>> *Sent:* Monday, 21 April 2008 10:33 AM<BR><BR>>> *To:* sofdev@edulists.com.au<BR><BR>>> *Subject:* [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice -<BR>tertiary<BR><BR>>> links (MarkKelly)<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> Hi again,<BR><BR>>> I am<BR>really sorry to be so negative all of the time but<BR><BR>>> I find<BR><BR>>> this an appalling situation and I cannot stay silent.<BR><BR>>> What I have been constantly hearing through the<BR>mail<BR><BR>>> is that we have SD teachers who don't know<BR><BR>>> what to teach and don't know why they are teaching it.<BR><BR>>> Rest assured, it is not the teaching staff I hold to<BR>account.<BR><BR>>> Consider all of the wasted time, sleep and worry<BR>by teaching<BR><BR>>> staff who should be devoting their time and energy into<BR>how to<BR><BR>>> teach it, preparing great materials and assessing the<BR>students work.<BR><BR>>> Instead we have people running around in circles trying<BR>to work<BR><BR>>> out what to do.<BR><BR>>> No wonder people are not keen to write their own<BR>SAC's.<BR><BR>>> Apparently the VCAA is quite happy with the status quo.<BR>I look<BR><BR>>> forward to making a positive contribution soon.<BR><BR>>> Russell Quinn<BR><BR>>> Mailto: qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <<A href="mailto:qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au">mailto:qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au</A>><BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>><BR><BR>------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>>> *From:* sofdev-request@edulists.com.au<BR><BR>>> *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 10:06 PM<BR><BR>>> *To:* sofdev@edulists.com.au<BR><BR>>> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to<BR><BR>>> sofdev@edulists.com.au<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,<BR>visit<BR><BR>>> <A href="http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev">http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev</A><BR><BR>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body<BR>'help' to<BR><BR>>> sofdev-request@edulists.com.au<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> You can reach the person managing the list at<BR><BR>>> sofdev-owner@edulists.com.au<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is<BR>more specific<BR><BR>>> than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> Today's Topics:<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> 1. Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary<BR>links (Mark Kelly)<BR><BR>>> 2. RE: Re: Industry practice - tertiary<BR>links (Meadows, Roslyn M)<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>><BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> Message: 1<BR><BR>>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:40:09 +1000<BR><BR>>> From: Mark Kelly <kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au><BR><BR>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice -<BR>tertiary links<BR><BR>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing<BR>List"<BR><BR>>> <sofdev@edulists.com.au><BR><BR>>> Message-ID: <48088899.8050808@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au><BR><BR>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;<BR>format=flowed<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> Maybe the first thing to do is to decide what VCE SD is<BR>for.<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> What is it meant to achieve?<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> Is it meant to be a preparation for tertiary study?<BR><BR>>> Is it meant to be a skills-based preparation for work?<BR><BR>>> Is it meant to be a fun 12 months until uni begins?<BR><BR>>> Is it meant to give hope to kids who are unqualified for<BR>any other<BR><BR>>> VCE<BR><BR>>> subject?<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> I'm sure the VCAA has a good answer to this. It would be<BR>interesting<BR><BR>>> to<BR><BR>>> hear it. Then, maybe, we can start re-defining SD - and<BR>ITA.<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> That's assuming VCE IT NEEDS to be redefined...<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> Which is maybe a good place for the review of the VCE IT<BR>Study Design<BR><BR><BR><BR>>> to<BR><BR>>> begin...<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> And when it does, Paula, I hope it's virtual rather than<BR>with<BR><BR>>> meetings<BR><BR>>> in the city. I'd much rather sit at home with a<BR>glass of Cab Sav and<BR><BR>>> take time to ponder the intricacies of an argument, do<BR>research, and<BR><BR>>> fast-forward through the boring people - rather than<BR>commute to the<BR><BR>>> big<BR><BR>>> smoke and sit with a dozen passionate people all<BR>determined to get a<BR><BR>>> word in edgewise within an hour so no-one's argument can<BR>get fully<BR><BR>>> thought-out, crafted and developed in its entirety.<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> Oooh! Saint Kilda's winning. Must go...<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> Russell Quinn wrote:<BR><BR>>> > The first thing would be inclined to do is<BR>throw out all of the<BR><BR>>> > networking -<BR><BR>>> > which is totally irrelevant to software development<BR>(except to a<BR><BR>>> small and<BR><BR>>> > select few specialists) and replace it with actual<BR>software<BR><BR>>> development.<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > I also think the obsession with the business models<BR>should be<BR><BR>>> downplayed,<BR><BR>>> > and the scenario's broadened to something far more<BR>interesting.<BR><BR>>> After<BR><BR>>> > all, business<BR><BR>>> > is just one of the reasons for writing software,<BR>and not a very<BR><BR>>> > interesting one at that.<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > It appears that students are voting with their<BR>feet, and I can see<BR><BR>>> their<BR><BR>>> > point.<BR><BR>>> > The only way to plug the leak is to make the<BR>courses software based<BR><BR><BR><BR>>> and<BR><BR>>> > interesting.<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > Russell Quinn<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > Mailto: qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <<A href="mailto:qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au">mailto:qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au</A>><BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>>> > *From:* sofdev-request@edulists.com.au<BR><BR>>> > *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 12:00 PM<BR><BR>>> > *To:* sofdev@edulists.com.au<BR><BR>>> > *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > Send sofdev mailing list submissions to<BR><BR>>> > sofdev@edulists.com.au<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,<BR>visit<BR><BR>>> > <A href="http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev">http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev</A><BR><BR>>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body<BR>'help' to<BR><BR>>> > sofdev-request@edulists.com.au<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > You can reach the person managing the list at<BR><BR>>> > sofdev-owner@edulists.com.au<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it<BR>is more specific<BR><BR>>> > than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > Today's Topics:<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > 1. Re: Industry practice - tertiary<BR>links (Steven Bird)<BR><BR>>> > 2. RE: Industry practice - tertiary<BR>links (Selina Dennis)<BR><BR>>> > 3. Re: Industry practice - tertiary<BR>links (Mark Kelly)<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > Message: 1<BR><BR>>> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:00:37 +1000<BR><BR>>> > From: "Steven Bird" <sb@csse.unimelb.edu.au><BR><BR>>> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice -<BR>tertiary links<BR><BR>>> > To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers'<BR>Mailing List"<BR><BR>>> > <sofdev@edulists.com.au><BR><BR>>> > Message-ID:<BR><BR>>> > <97e4e62e0804171400q6bf98a9fq3acd059906fe980@mail.gmail.com><BR><BR>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends<BR><BR>>> <timmer@melbpc.org.au><BR>wrote:<BR><BR>>> >> I have to say that this discussion is heading<BR>to Comp Sci circa<BR><BR>>> 1990 (which<BR><BR>>> >> is not necessarily a bad thing)<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT<BR>subject. The theory<BR><BR><BR><BR>>> on<BR><BR>>> > which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older<BR>still, but no-one<BR><BR>>> > considers that dated.<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> >> but it seems to me that a couple of<BR><BR>>> >> questions need to be answered first:<BR><BR>>> >> 1. what do we want students to get out of<BR>a technically-oriented<BR><BR>>> Y12 IT course?<BR><BR>>> >> 2. is the course primarily intended to<BR>prepare students for<BR><BR>>> teritary, work, or both?<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is<BR>foundational study,<BR><BR>>> > preparing students for whatever they choose to do<BR>in future, even<BR><BR>>> if<BR><BR>>> > it involves no formal IT study or employment.<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > For the students continuing from VCE Software Development<BR>to a<BR><BR>>> degree<BR><BR>>> > in Software Engineering, we would prefer students<BR>to have a solid<BR><BR>>> > grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the<BR>associated<BR><BR>>> > programming skills. (The SDLC follows<BR>naturally once they're ready<BR><BR><BR><BR>>> to<BR><BR>>> > scale up.)<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > -Steven<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > ------------------------------<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > Message: 2<BR><BR>>> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:09:16 +1000<BR><BR>>> > From: "Selina Dennis" <selina@dennis.net.au><BR><BR>>> > Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice -<BR>tertiary links<BR><BR>>> > To: "'Year 12 Software Development Teachers'<BR>Mailing List'"<BR><BR>>> > <sofdev@edulists.com.au><BR><BR>>> > Message-ID:<BR><003801c8a0d7$aed8dd80$0c8a9880$@net.au><BR><BR>>> > Content-Type: text/plain;<BR>charset="us-ascii"<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > I am both a Year 12 Software Development teacher<BR>and a Computer<BR><BR>>> Science<BR><BR>>> > graduate - I completed my CS degree late in life,<BR>circa 2005 - and<BR><BR>>> as<BR><BR>>> > someone who has worked in the IT industry since<BR>1996, I must say<BR><BR>>> that I<BR><BR>>> > concur with Steven Bird's view that there is a<BR>chasm between<BR><BR>>> secondary<BR><BR>>> > school teaching of IT and tertiary teaching of IT.<BR>For students in<BR><BR>>> Year 12,<BR><BR>>> > the key components of software development that<BR>they will "get the<BR><BR>>> most out<BR><BR>>> > of", is the theory behind algorithms, problem<BR>solving, and also the<BR><BR>>> > development of their basic thinking skills. I've<BR>been teaching<BR><BR>>> PHP/mySQL to<BR><BR>>> > my students this year and while most have come into<BR>the course<BR><BR>>> having<BR><BR>>> > completed Year 10 and 11 IT, they still did not<BR>have a basic<BR><BR>>> understanding<BR><BR>>> > of fundamental programming concepts at the start of<BR>the year.<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > Perhaps this is more of a "theological"<BR>discussion on how to teach<BR><BR>>> > programming to teenagers, but it's also relevant to<BR>note that much<BR><BR>>> of the<BR><BR>>> > theory that is being taught in Year 12 is rarely<BR>used or developed<BR><BR>>> in either<BR><BR>>> > tertiary study or in industry. One such example is<BR>diagrams - N-S<BR><BR>>> Diagrams,<BR><BR>>> > DFDs, etc have long been superseded by UML, both at<BR>a university<BR><BR>>> level and<BR><BR>>> > in industry - as an aside, I had never heard of NS<BR>diagrams until I<BR><BR><BR><BR>>> had to<BR><BR>>> > teach it in IPM, and I had worked with ISO-9000<BR>compliant<BR><BR>>> corporations<BR><BR>>> > developing major software products.<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > Similarly, the SDLC, as Steven has raised, is most<BR>useful for<BR><BR>>> large-scale<BR><BR>>> > projects. Students will rarely experience the<BR>benefit, nor the<BR><BR>>> relevance, of<BR><BR>>> > the SDLC, in a secondary school curriculum. More<BR>useful theory<BR><BR>>> would be a<BR><BR>>> > more focused look at iterative design, extreme<BR>programming (or any<BR><BR>>> other<BR><BR>>> > kind of agile software development), etc, and move<BR>away from the<BR><BR>>> excessive<BR><BR>>> > documentation requirements that the SDLC brings to<BR>the table.<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > As a teacher, I would prefer to bring in key<BR>aspects of the SDLC<BR><BR>>> without<BR><BR>>> > having to formally teach every part of it. For<BR>example, a<BR><BR>>> concentration on<BR><BR>>> > testing and debugging of software - this is a<BR>twofold benefit, as<BR><BR>>> it teaches<BR><BR>>> > students to be aware of how they choose to<BR>implement functionality,<BR><BR><BR><BR>>> and also<BR><BR>>> > develops their analytical and observational skills<BR>when they are<BR><BR>>> debugging<BR><BR>>> > an error. Bringing in Use Case Diagrams instead of<BR>DFDs would be<BR><BR>>> fantastic,<BR><BR>>> > also, as it conceptually allows a student to think<BR>through what<BR><BR>>> they are<BR><BR>>> > providing in their system before they develop it.<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > In general, however, I have to say I am currently<BR>much happier with<BR><BR><BR><BR>>> the core<BR><BR>>> > content of the Software Development course than I<BR>was with the IT:<BR><BR>>> > Applications course, but I still believe that it<BR>is, at its core,<BR><BR>>> dated and<BR><BR>>> > at times irrelevant. In a perfect world, we would<BR>be teaching our<BR><BR>>> students<BR><BR>>> > "good practice" programming while also<BR>preparing them for a future<BR><BR>>> path in<BR><BR>>> > IT if they so choose - both at the tertiary level<BR>and in industry.<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > </soapbox><BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > Regards,<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > Selina Dennis<BR><BR>>> > Strathmore Secondary College<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > -----Original Message-----<BR><BR>>> > From: sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au<BR><BR>>> [<A href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</A>]<BR><BR>>> > On Behalf Of Steven Bird<BR><BR>>> > Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:01 AM<BR><BR>>> > To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing<BR>List<BR><BR>>> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice -<BR>tertiary links<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends<BR><BR>>> <timmer@melbpc.org.au><BR>wrote:<BR><BR>>> >> I have to say that this discussion is heading<BR>to Comp Sci circa<BR><BR>>> 1990<BR><BR>>> > (which<BR><BR>>> >> is not necessarily a bad thing)<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT<BR>subject. The theory<BR><BR><BR><BR>>> on<BR><BR>>> > which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older<BR>still, but no-one<BR><BR>>> > considers that dated.<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> >> but it seems to me that a couple of<BR><BR>>> >> questions need to be answered first:<BR><BR>>> >> 1. what do we want students to get out of<BR>a technically-oriented<BR><BR>>> Y12 IT<BR><BR>>> > course?<BR><BR>>> >> 2. is the course primarily intended to<BR>prepare students for<BR><BR>>> teritary,<BR><BR>>> > work, or both?<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is<BR>foundational study,<BR><BR>>> > preparing students for whatever they choose to do<BR>in future, even<BR><BR>>> if<BR><BR>>> > it involves no formal IT study or employment.<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > For the students continuing from VCE Software<BR>Development to a<BR><BR>>> degree<BR><BR>>> > in Software Engineering, we would prefer students<BR>to have a solid<BR><BR>>> > grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the<BR>associated<BR><BR>>> > programming skills. (The SDLC follows<BR>naturally once they're ready<BR><BR><BR><BR>>> to<BR><BR>>> > scale up.)<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > -Steven<BR><BR>>> > _______________________________________________<BR><BR>>> > <A href="http://www.edulists.com.au/">http://www.edulists.com.au</A><BR><BR>>> > IT Software Development Mailing List kindly<BR>supported by<BR><BR>>> > <A href="http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/">http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au</A><BR>- Victorian Curriculum and Assessment<BR><BR>>> Authority<BR><BR>>> > and<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> ttp://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html<BR> -<BR><BR>>> VITTA<BR><BR>>> > Victorian Information Technology Teachers<BR>Association Inc<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > ------------------------------<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > Message: 3<BR><BR>>> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:20:04 +1000<BR><BR>>> > From: Mark Kelly <kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au><BR><BR>>> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice -<BR>tertiary links<BR><BR>>> > To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers'<BR>Mailing List"<BR><BR>>> > <sofdev@edulists.com.au><BR><BR>>> > Message-ID: <4807CD14.8060002@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au><BR><BR>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;<BR>format=flowed<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > Yes - and we have to position VCE against VET,<BR>which is the more<BR><BR>>> > practical, work-oriented stream.<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > Frankly, I can't see SD being directly useful in<BR>providing students<BR><BR><BR><BR>>> with<BR><BR>>> > workplace skills. It's simply not deep enough<BR>in programming<BR><BR>>> skills -<BR><BR>>> > and it could never be in the time available.<BR> And by the time the<BR><BR>>> kids<BR><BR>>> > took the tram from school to their first job, the<BR>entire IT<BR><BR>>> industry<BR><BR>>> > would have had three technological revolutions in<BR>the meantime, so<BR><BR>>> any<BR><BR>>> > language they learned would have been superseded.<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > I see SD as giving students a taste of the mindset<BR>of software<BR><BR>>> > development, to be developed later at uni or TAFE.<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > 2.2c worth, and falling against the Yen.<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > Timmer-Arends wrote:<BR><BR>>> >> I have to say that this discussion is heading<BR>to Comp Sci circa<BR><BR>>> 1990 (which<BR><BR>>> >> is not necessarily a bad thing) but it seems to<BR>me that a couple<BR><BR>>> of<BR><BR>>> >> questions need to be answered first:<BR><BR>>> >> 1. what do we want students to get out of a<BR>technically-oriented<BR><BR>>> Y12 IT<BR><BR>>> >> course?<BR><BR>>> >> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare<BR>students for<BR><BR>>> teritary,<BR><BR>>> >> work, or both?<BR><BR>>> >><BR><BR>>> >> Regards<BR><BR>>> >> Robert T-A<BR><BR>>> >><BR><BR>>> >><BR><BR>>> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven<BR>Bird"<BR><BR>>> <sb@csse.unimelb.edu.au><BR><BR>>> >> To: "Year 12 Software Development<BR>Teachers' Mailing List"<BR><BR>>> >> <sofdev@edulists.com.au><BR><BR>>> >> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:41 AM<BR><BR>>> >> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice<BR>- tertiary links<BR><BR>>> >><BR><BR>>> >><BR><BR>>> >>> [Adrian -- thanks for picking a more<BR>appropriate subject line now<BR><BR><BR><BR>>> that<BR><BR>>> >>> discussion has moved away from data flow<BR>diagrams.]<BR><BR>>> >>><BR><BR>>> >>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:28 PM, andrew<BR>barry<BR><BR>>> <jagguy999@gmail.com><BR><BR>>> >>> wrote:<BR><BR>>> >>>> I prefer to just teach an IT subject<BR>which is just programming<BR><BR>>> and some<BR><BR>>> >>>> programming design eg psuedo code.<BR><BR>>> >>><BR><BR>>> >>> I agree. Students should learn how to<BR>walk before learning how<BR><BR>>> to<BR><BR>>> >>> run, i.e. they should be competent with<BR>"programming<BR><BR>>> in-the-small"<BR><BR>>> >>> before they spend much time on<BR>"programming in-the-large" (incl<BR><BR>>> SDLC).<BR><BR>>> >>><BR><BR>>> >>>> Including so much theory doesn't get<BR>any student excited about<BR><BR>>> learning<BR><BR>>> >>>> IT<BR><BR>>> >>>> at Uni. After all we are trying to<BR>promote IT beyond yr12 are we<BR><BR><BR><BR>>> not?<BR><BR>>> >>>> Are<BR><BR>>> >>>> we<BR><BR>>> >>>> not trying to get more people to do it?<BR><BR>>> >>><BR><BR>>> >>> I agree with Adrian that rigour is<BR>important, and this cuts<BR><BR>>> across<BR><BR>>> >>> analysis, design, implementation,<BR>documentation, etc. The SDLC<BR><BR>>> is one<BR><BR>>> >>> source of theory but I question its<BR>suitability at this level.<BR><BR>>> It's<BR><BR>>> >>> intended for software engineering projects<BR>where you have to<BR><BR>>> manage<BR><BR>>> >>> whole teams of developers, client<BR>relationships, project<BR><BR>>> deliverables,<BR><BR>>> >>> etc. When students aren't already<BR>experienced at small-scale<BR><BR>>> >>> programming the emphasis often falls on a<BR>rather heavy document<BR><BR>>> >>> process, which has to be one of the least<BR>exciting aspects of<BR><BR>>> software<BR><BR>>> >>> development.<BR><BR>>> >>><BR><BR>>> >>> Another issue I have with the emphasis on<BR>SDLC as a major source<BR><BR>>> of<BR><BR>>> >>> theoretical content is that it focusses too<BR>much on the software<BR><BR>>> >>> development process. Of course that's<BR>entirely appropriate given<BR><BR><BR><BR>>> the<BR><BR>>> >>> title of the subject, but there's some<BR>other areas of computing<BR><BR>>> theory<BR><BR>>> >>> that would be useful and accessible at this<BR>level, including<BR><BR>>> >>> algorithmic problem solving and the limits<BR>of computing. Here's<BR><BR>>> a<BR><BR>>> >>> couple of introductory books that cover<BR>these topics in a<BR><BR>>> >>> non-mathematical yet rigorous and<BR>intellectually stimulating way:<BR><BR>>> >>><BR><BR>>> >>> Algorithmics: The Spirit of Computing (3rd<BR>Ed, David Harel,<BR><BR>>> Addison<BR><BR>>> >>> Wesley, 2004)<BR><BR>>> >>><BR><BR>>> >>> Computers Ltd: What They Really Can't Do<BR>(David Harel, Oxford<BR><BR>>> >>> University Press, 2000)<BR><BR>>> >>><BR><BR>>> >>> -Steven Bird<BR><BR>>> >>> <A href="http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/">http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/</A><BR><BR>>> >>> _______________________________________________<BR><BR>>> >>> <A href="http://www.edulists.com.au/">http://www.edulists.com.au</A><BR><BR>>> >>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly<BR>supported by<BR><BR>>> >>> <A href="http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/">http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au</A> - Victorian Curriculum and<BR>Assessment<BR><BR>>> >>> Authority<BR><BR>>> >>> and<BR><BR>>> >>><BR><BR>>> <A href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html">http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</A><BR> -<BR><BR>>> >>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology<BR>Teachers Association Inc<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > --<BR><BR>>> > Mark Kelly<BR><BR>>> > Manager - Information Systems<BR><BR>>> > McKinnon Secondary College<BR><BR>>> > McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia<BR><BR>>> > Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085<BR><BR>>> > School Phone +613 8520 9000<BR><BR>>> > School Fax +613 95789253<BR><BR>>> > kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > Webmaster - <A href="http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/">http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</A><BR><BR>>> > IT Lecture notes: <A href="http://vceit.com/">http://vceit.com</A><BR><BR>>> > Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > A conclusion is the place where you got sick of<BR>thinking.<BR><BR>>> > If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > ------------------------------<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > _______________________________________________<BR><BR>>> > sofdev mailing list<BR><BR>>> > sofdev@edulists.com.au<BR><BR>>> > <A href="http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev">http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev</A><BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24<BR><BR>>> > **************************************<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > _______________________________________________<BR><BR>>> > <A href="http://www.edulists.com.au/">http://www.edulists.com.au</A><BR><<A href="http://www.edulists.com.au/">http://www.edulists.com.au</A>><BR>IT Software<BR><BR>>> > Development Mailing List kindly supported by<BR><BR>>> > <A href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html">http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</A><BR><BR>>> > <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html<BR><BR><BR><BR>>> > -<BR><BR>>> > Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and<BR><BR>>> > <A href="http://www.vitta.org.au/">http://www.vitta.org.au</A><BR><<A href="http://www.vitta.org.au/">http://www.vitta.org.au</A>><BR>- VITTA Victorian<BR><BR>>> > Information Technology Teachers Association Inc<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>>> ><BR><BR>>> > No virus found in this incoming message.<BR><BR>>> > Checked by AVG.<BR><BR>>> > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1375 -<BR>Release Date:<BR><BR>>> 12/04/2008 11:32 AM<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> --<BR><BR>>> Mark Kelly<BR><BR>>> Manager - Information Systems<BR><BR>>> McKinnon Secondary College<BR><BR>>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au<BR><BR>>> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia<BR><BR>>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> Webmaster - <A href="http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/">http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</A><BR><BR>>> IT Lecture notes: <A href="http://vceit.com/">http://vceit.com</A><BR><BR>>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> Only those who swim against the current know the current<BR>is there.<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> ------------------------------<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> Message: 2<BR><BR>>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:04:52 +1000<BR><BR>>> From: "Meadows, Roslyn M" <Meadows.Roslyn.M@edumail.vic.gov.au><BR><BR>>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice -<BR>tertiary links<BR><BR>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing<BR>List"<BR><BR>>> <sofdev@edulists.com.au><BR><BR>>> Message-ID:<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> <93564D1B69FCEC47BB2D847F7B0888DA0187937C@EDUSM03.education.vic.gov.au><BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> Content-Type: text/plain; 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Any<BR><BR>>> representations or opinions expressed are those of the individual<BR>sender,<BR><BR><BR><BR>>> and not necessarily those of the Department of Education and Early<BR><BR>>> Childhood Development.<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> _______________________________________________<BR><BR>>> <A href="http://www.edulists.com.au/">http://www.edulists.com.au</A><BR><<A href="http://www.edulists.com.au/">http://www.edulists.com.au</A>><BR>IT Software<BR><BR>>> Development Mailing List kindly supported by<BR><BR>>> <A href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html">http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</A><BR><BR>>> <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html<BR>> -<BR><BR>>> Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and<BR><BR>>> <A href="http://www.vitta.org.au/">http://www.vitta.org.au</A><BR><<A href="http://www.vitta.org.au/">http://www.vitta.org.au</A>><BR>- VITTA Victorian<BR><BR>>> Information Technology Teachers Association Inc<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>><BR>------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>>><BR><BR>>> No virus found in this incoming message.<BR><BR>>> Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.2/1387 -<BR><BR>>> Release Date: 19/04/2008 11:31 AM<BR><BR>><BR><BR>> --<BR><BR>> Mark Kelly<BR><BR>> Manager - Information Systems<BR><BR>> McKinnon Secondary College<BR><BR>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au<BR><BR>> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia<BR><BR>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253<BR><BR>><BR><BR>> Webmaster - <A href="http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/">http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</A><BR><BR>> IT Lecture notes: <A href="http://vceit.com/">http://vceit.com</A><BR><BR>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List<BR><BR>><BR><BR>> Only those who swim against the current know the current is there.<BR><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR><BR>> <A href="http://www.edulists.com.au/">http://www.edulists.com.au</A><BR><BR>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by<BR><BR>> <A href="http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/">http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au</A><BR>- Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority<BR><BR><BR><BR>> and<BR><BR>> <A href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html">http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</A><BR> -<BR><BR>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc<BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR><BR><A href="http://www.edulists.com.au/">http://www.edulists.com.au</A><BR><BR>IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by<BR><BR><A href="http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/">http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au</A><BR>- Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority<BR><BR>and<BR><BR><A href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html">http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</A><BR> - VITTA<BR><BR>Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR><BR><A href="http://www.edulists.com.au/">http://www.edulists.com.au</A><BR><BR>IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by<BR><BR><A href="http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/">http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au</A><BR>- Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and<BR><BR><A href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html">http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</A><BR> - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR><BR><BR><BR><A href="http://www.edulists.com.au/">http://www.edulists.com.au</A><BR>IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by<BR><BR><BR><BR><A href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html">http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</A><BR>- Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and<BR><BR><A href="http://www.vitta.org.au/">http://www.vitta.org.au</A> -<BR>VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Important - This email and<BR>any attachments may be confidential. 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