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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hi Andrew,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>>The issue here is how to improve SD enrollment and
relevance. The government is itching for change and even the adopt a schools
policy sees IT as a major area . <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Agreed – however, I am not prepared to concede to a
plan in which we design curriculum merely to bulk up our numbers.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
>Who is going to decide what we teach? business!<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Business is a driver certainly – but the ‘tail
does not wag the dog’. How does business know what it needs?
Are the needs of business driven by the ‘now’ rather the ‘future’?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
>In maths you teach maths and in english you teach english. What maths sac
asks you to explain a legal consideration for the calculations or asks to list
any business considerations and document elaborate plans to reach an answer? <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Here is where I must strongly disagree with the stance that
I (think) you are making. Our students need to be aware of the legal
issues and considerations involved in this subject. Watch the news almost
any night of the week for evidence of this. If our SD students are to be
the ICT leaders of tomorrow – then they need to be properly equipped in
this regard.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
>IT subjects should just teach programming and some design
theory.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>There is a lot more than programming in IT *(did I just say
that!!??!). The SD course has a good balance between programming and
design elements – and I personally feel that that balance should be
maintained.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Adrian<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Adrian Janson, <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>VITTA President<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Director of ICT, <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Melbourne High School, <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Forrest Hill, South Yarra 3141 Australia.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Phone: 03 9826 0711 International: +61 3 9826 0711<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Fax: 03 9826 8767 International: +61 3 9826 8767<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>E-mail: <a href="mailto:janson.adrian.a@edumail.vic.gov.au"><span
style='color:blue'>janson.adrian.a@edumail.vic.gov.au</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Website: <a href="http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au"><span
style='color:blue'>http://www.mhs.vic.edu.au</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas;
color:#1F497D'>Blog: <a href="http://jansona.edublogs.org/"><span
style='color:blue'>http://jansona.edublogs.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au [mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>andrew barry<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 23 April 2008 5:25 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks
(MarkKelly)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>The issue here is how to
improve SD enrollment and relevance. The government is itching for change and
even the adopt a schools policy sees IT as a major area . <br>
<br>
Who is going to decide what we teach? business!<br>
<br>
In maths you teach maths and in english you teach english. What maths sac asks
you to explain a legal consideration for the calculations or asks to list any
business considerations and document elaborate plans to reach an answer? <br>
<br>
Maths teaches maths and IT should teach IT and not IT/business models. Does a
maths sac ask for any historical q's about where the formulas come from? Is
maths well rounded ?<br>
<br>
IT subjects should just teach programming and some design theory.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:42 PM, Adrian Janson <<a
href="mailto:janson.adrian.a@edumail.vic.gov.au">janson.adrian.a@edumail.vic.gov.au</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Hi everyone,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
"Teachers are NOT curriculum materials developers."<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I have to say that this statement goes against everything
that I believe. I<br>
have designed the Year 9 and Year 10 courses that I teach for IT - and I<br>
revise and update them each year so that they are well suited to the cohort<br>
that I teach. Who best understands the needs of our students? We
each<br>
do... and when it comes to VCE - each one of us is passionate about what<br>
content is best suited to the future prospects of our VCE students and the<br>
discipline of ICT as a whole. I for one and passionate about ICT and have<br>
very definite views about what core skills ICT students need moving forward<br>
- into a career path or their lives.<br>
<br>
My 2c<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<span style='color:#888888'>Adrian</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a>]<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Behalf Of Timmer-Arends<br>
Sent: Tuesday, 22 April 2008 6:25 PM<br>
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice -
tertiarylinks<br>
(MarkKelly)<br>
<br>
>> Teachers are NOT curriculum materials developers.<br>
<br>
Stephen, I can't agree with this statement either, simply because I believe<br>
that is one of the crafts of being a teacher; ie being able to develop<br>
material which will help convey concepts and skills to students (and that<br>
might include dipping into whatever resources are available out there)<br>
<br>
I had thought from earlier posts on this topic that you originally meant<br>
that teachers should not be developing 'content'; ie deciding what skills<br>
and knowledge students should have by the end of a year. And I have some<br>
sympathy for this view - but maybe it's not what you meant in the first<br>
place???<br>
<br>
Anyway, I have come to the view that SDs need to be far more explicit and<br>
specific about what knowledge/skills students should have by the end of Year<br>
<br>
12. It is the final year of secondary enducation and I cannot see any other<br>
way of guaranteeing any sort of standard. Providing flexibility in a course<br>
so that teachers can meet the needs of their students is one thing (and<br>
important), but allowing teachers to decide the depth themselves is<br>
problematic, and I suspect leads to the exam becoming the standard setter,<br>
and I don't know that that is a good thing.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Robert T-A<br>
Brighton SC<br>
<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Mark Kelly" <<a href="mailto:kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au">kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a>><br>
To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"<br>
<<a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a>><br>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:07 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks<br>
(MarkKelly)<br>
<br>
<br>
><br>
> Stephen Digby wrote:<br>
>> Here here !!!<br>
>> I say again.....<br>
>><br>
<br>
><br>
> Oooh - I think we are. But we often rely on textbook writers to save
us<br>
> doing it ourselves. We still have to choose which materials we use.<br>
><br>
>> It is the curriculum design authorities responsibility to provide<br>
>> classroom teaching materials to teachers (preferably with a range of<br>
>> options !).<br>
><br>
> Is it? This would come as a surprise to most curriculum design<br>
> authorities - except the ones in China, perhaps. If they DID provide<br>
> anything more than sample teaching materials, I would be deeply worried<br>
> about government interference.<br>
><br>
>> It is teachers responsibility to understand the content and their<br>
>> students so that they can use these materials to plan, prep, teach,<br>
>> correct, and communicate<br>
>> Inevitably teachers will tweak for their own class and discover<br>
>> possibilities, alternatives, improvements.<br>
>> The second responsibility of the curriculum design authority should be
to<br>
<br>
>> systematically collect and utilise this field testing to improve the<br>
>> curriculum design.<br>
>> Two examples to show how simple these processes are:<br>
>> - give the curriculum design to all publishers and ask for draft<br>
>> responses in terms of classroom material support. Choose a single<br>
>> publisher as the recommended support material for a definite period
e.g<br>
>> 3 years so that they have the chance to profit from their recommended<br>
>> status.<br>
><br>
> I can already hear the screaming about this one. One vital feature of<br>
> education is the freedom to use a variety of suitable resources at the<br>
> discretion of the student and teacher.<br>
> Choosing a "preferred" publisher would cause sales of other
'unapproved'<br>
> texts to evaporate, and considering the already-precarious IT textbook<br>
> sales figures most other publishers would not bother releasing a text at<br>
> all.<br>
><br>
> This would, in effect, result in a single textbook and stifle the richness<br>
<br>
> of available opinion and pedagogical style. Publishers would be in<br>
> revolt - quite justifiably.<br>
><br>
> And how will the 'approved' text be chosen? Do you expect VCAA to
choose<br>
> a publisher on the basis of a proposal and a sample chapter from<br>
> publishers? For that would be the only way it could work: VCAA would
have<br>
<br>
> no finished textbook to base its judgement on because NO publisher is<br>
> going to pay authors to create a full text and submit it in the hope of<br>
> being picked. It just would not happen!<br>
><br>
> And if the preferred text was later found to be flawed in some way, the<br>
> VCAA would be partially culpable. I don't think they want such
problems<br>
> being beaten to death on the nightly current affairs shows.<br>
><br>
> The only 'DEECD preferred' suppliers are, and should remain to be, related<br>
<br>
> to the supply of software, hardware and leasing services. They must
not<br>
> extend to educational resources. If the VCAA started down this path they<br>
> would be in a world of trouble. I think this is why they are so
chary<br>
> about recommending any resources apart from their own - the exception<br>
> being the last 2 pages of the study design.<br>
><br>
><br>
>> Of course, a recommendation is not a compulsion, and schools may
choose<br>
>> not to use the recommended resources. The likelihood that they
be chosen<br>
<br>
>> again will of course depend on the ongoing feedback re. the quality of<br>
>> their resources and their continued support through the 3 years.<br>
>> - require all teachers in all govt schools to provide copies of their
sac<br>
<br>
>> tasks with a sample answer from the teacher. (No cost. No
copyright as<br>
>> the work is owned by the government). Select the best 50 and
publish on<br>
>> line (No Cost) as exemplars to assist teachers in Year 2.<br>
><br>
> I bet VCAA is quite busy enough assessing the few tasks they call for<br>
> during subject auditing. If every SAC had to be independently
judged, the<br>
<br>
> VCAA would either collapse under the weight, or grow to rival the size of<br>
> the public service sector of Bulgaria. :-)<br>
>> etc etc etc<br>
><br>
> But thanks for the interesting post, Stephen. I'm sure it will
stimulate<br>
> discussion.<br>
>> ====================================================<br>
>> Stephen Digby, Learning Technology Manager<br>
>> mailto: <a href="mailto:digby.stephen.p@edumail.vic.gov.au">digby.stephen.p@edumail.vic.gov.au</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:digby.stephen.p@edumail.vic.gov.au">digby.stephen.p@edumail.vic.gov.au</a>>
Cheltenham Secondary College<br>
<br>
>> <a href="http://www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au</a>
<<a href="http://www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au/" target="_blank">http://www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au/</a>><br>
>> Ph: 613 955 55 955 Fx: 9555 8617 Mb: 0431-701-028<br>
>> ====================================================<br>
>> The other day somebody stole everything in my apartment and replaced
it<br>
>> with an exact replica... When my roommate came home I said,
"Roommate,<br>
>> someone stole everything in our apartment and replaced it with an
exact<br>
>> replica." He looked at me and said, "Do I know you?"
Steven Wright<br>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>> *From:* <a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a>]
*On Behalf Of *Russell Quinn<br>
>> *Sent:* Monday, 21 April 2008 10:33 AM<br>
>> *To:* <a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> *Subject:* [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice -
tertiary<br>
>> links (MarkKelly)<br>
>><br>
>> Hi again,<br>
>> I am
really sorry to be so negative all of the time but<br>
>> I find<br>
>> this an appalling situation and I cannot stay silent.<br>
>> What I have been constantly hearing through the
mail<br>
>> is that we have SD teachers who don't know<br>
>> what to teach and don't know why they are teaching it.<br>
>> Rest assured, it is not the teaching staff I hold to
account.<br>
>> Consider all of the wasted time, sleep and worry
by teaching<br>
>> staff who should be devoting their time and energy into
how to<br>
>> teach it, preparing great materials and assessing the
students work.<br>
>> Instead we have people running around in circles trying
to work<br>
>> out what to do.<br>
>> No wonder people are not keen to write their own
SAC's.<br>
>> Apparently the VCAA is quite happy with the status quo.
I look<br>
>> forward to making a positive contribution soon.<br>
>> Russell Quinn<br>
>> Mailto: <a href="mailto:qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au">qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au">qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au</a>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>> *From:* <a href="mailto:sofdev-request@edulists.com.au">sofdev-request@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 10:06 PM<br>
>> *To:* <a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26<br>
>><br>
>> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to<br>
>> <a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>><br>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
visit<br>
>> <a
href="http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev</a><br>
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body
'help' to<br>
>> <a href="mailto:sofdev-request@edulists.com.au">sofdev-request@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>><br>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at<br>
>> <a href="mailto:sofdev-owner@edulists.com.au">sofdev-owner@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>><br>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is
more specific<br>
>> than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Today's Topics:<br>
>><br>
>> 1. Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary
links (Mark Kelly)<br>
>> 2. RE: Re: Industry practice - tertiary
links (Meadows, Roslyn M)<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> Message: 1<br>
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:40:09 +1000<br>
>> From: Mark Kelly <<a
href="mailto:kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au">kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a>><br>
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice -
tertiary links<br>
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing
List"<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a>><br>
>> Message-ID: <<a
href="mailto:48088899.8050808@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au">48088899.8050808@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a>><br>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed<br>
>><br>
>> Maybe the first thing to do is to decide what VCE SD is
for.<br>
>><br>
>> What is it meant to achieve?<br>
>><br>
>> Is it meant to be a preparation for tertiary study?<br>
>> Is it meant to be a skills-based preparation for work?<br>
>> Is it meant to be a fun 12 months until uni begins?<br>
>> Is it meant to give hope to kids who are unqualified for
any other<br>
>> VCE<br>
>> subject?<br>
>><br>
>> I'm sure the VCAA has a good answer to this. It would be
interesting<br>
>> to<br>
>> hear it. Then, maybe, we can start re-defining SD - and
ITA.<br>
>><br>
>> That's assuming VCE IT NEEDS to be redefined...<br>
>><br>
>> Which is maybe a good place for the review of the VCE IT
Study Design<br>
<br>
>> to<br>
>> begin...<br>
>><br>
>> And when it does, Paula, I hope it's virtual rather than
with<br>
>> meetings<br>
>> in the city. I'd much rather sit at home with a
glass of Cab Sav and<br>
>> take time to ponder the intricacies of an argument, do
research, and<br>
>> fast-forward through the boring people - rather than
commute to the<br>
>> big<br>
>> smoke and sit with a dozen passionate people all
determined to get a<br>
>> word in edgewise within an hour so no-one's argument can
get fully<br>
>> thought-out, crafted and developed in its entirety.<br>
>><br>
>> Oooh! Saint Kilda's winning. Must go...<br>
>><br>
>> Russell Quinn wrote:<br>
>> > The first thing would be inclined to do is
throw out all of the<br>
>> > networking -<br>
>> > which is totally irrelevant to software development
(except to a<br>
>> small and<br>
>> > select few specialists) and replace it with actual
software<br>
>> development.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I also think the obsession with the business models
should be<br>
>> downplayed,<br>
>> > and the scenario's broadened to something far more
interesting.<br>
>> After<br>
>> > all, business<br>
>> > is just one of the reasons for writing software,
and not a very<br>
>> > interesting one at that.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > It appears that students are voting with their
feet, and I can see<br>
>> their<br>
>> > point.<br>
>> > The only way to plug the leak is to make the
courses software based<br>
<br>
>> and<br>
>> > interesting.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Russell Quinn<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Mailto: <a href="mailto:qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au">qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au</a>
<mailto:<a href="mailto:qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au">qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au</a>><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>> > *From:* <a
href="mailto:sofdev-request@edulists.com.au">sofdev-request@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> > *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 12:00 PM<br>
>> > *To:* <a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> > *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Send sofdev mailing list submissions to<br>
>> > <a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
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>> > Today's Topics:<br>
>> ><br>
>> > 1. Re: Industry practice - tertiary
links (Steven Bird)<br>
>> > 2. RE: Industry practice - tertiary
links (Selina Dennis)<br>
>> > 3. Re: Industry practice - tertiary
links (Mark Kelly)<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Message: 1<br>
>> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:00:37 +1000<br>
>> > From: "Steven Bird" <<a
href="mailto:sb@csse.unimelb.edu.au">sb@csse.unimelb.edu.au</a>><br>
>> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice -
tertiary links<br>
>> > To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers'
Mailing List"<br>
>> > <<a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a>><br>
>> > Message-ID:<br>
>> > <<a
href="mailto:97e4e62e0804171400q6bf98a9fq3acd059906fe980@mail.gmail.com">97e4e62e0804171400q6bf98a9fq3acd059906fe980@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:timmer@melbpc.org.au">timmer@melbpc.org.au</a>>
wrote:<br>
>> >> I have to say that this discussion is heading
to Comp Sci circa<br>
>> 1990 (which<br>
>> >> is not necessarily a bad thing)<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT
subject. The theory<br>
<br>
>> on<br>
>> > which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older
still, but no-one<br>
>> > considers that dated.<br>
>> ><br>
>> >> but it seems to me that a couple of<br>
>> >> questions need to be answered first:<br>
>> >> 1. what do we want students to get out of
a technically-oriented<br>
>> Y12 IT course?<br>
>> >> 2. is the course primarily intended to
prepare students for<br>
>> teritary, work, or both?<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is
foundational study,<br>
>> > preparing students for whatever they choose to do
in future, even<br>
>> if<br>
>> > it involves no formal IT study or employment.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > For the students continuing from VCE Software
Development to a<br>
>> degree<br>
>> > in Software Engineering, we would prefer students
to have a solid<br>
>> > grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the
associated<br>
>> > programming skills. (The SDLC follows
naturally once they're ready<br>
<br>
>> to<br>
>> > scale up.)<br>
>> ><br>
>> > -Steven<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > ------------------------------<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Message: 2<br>
>> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:09:16 +1000<br>
>> > From: "Selina Dennis" <<a
href="mailto:selina@dennis.net.au">selina@dennis.net.au</a>><br>
>> > Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice -
tertiary links<br>
>> > To: "'Year 12 Software Development Teachers'
Mailing List'"<br>
>> > <<a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a>><br>
>> > Message-ID:
<003801c8a0d7$aed8dd80$0c8a9880$@net.au><br>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I am both a Year 12 Software Development teacher
and a Computer<br>
>> Science<br>
>> > graduate - I completed my CS degree late in life,
circa 2005 - and<br>
>> as<br>
>> > someone who has worked in the IT industry since
1996, I must say<br>
>> that I<br>
>> > concur with Steven Bird's view that there is a
chasm between<br>
>> secondary<br>
>> > school teaching of IT and tertiary teaching of IT.
For students in<br>
>> Year 12,<br>
>> > the key components of software development that
they will "get the<br>
>> most out<br>
>> > of", is the theory behind algorithms, problem
solving, and also the<br>
>> > development of their basic thinking skills. I've
been teaching<br>
>> PHP/mySQL to<br>
>> > my students this year and while most have come into
the course<br>
>> having<br>
>> > completed Year 10 and 11 IT, they still did not
have a basic<br>
>> understanding<br>
>> > of fundamental programming concepts at the start of
the year.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Perhaps this is more of a "theological"
discussion on how to teach<br>
>> > programming to teenagers, but it's also relevant to
note that much<br>
>> of the<br>
>> > theory that is being taught in Year 12 is rarely
used or developed<br>
>> in either<br>
>> > tertiary study or in industry. One such example is
diagrams - N-S<br>
>> Diagrams,<br>
>> > DFDs, etc have long been superseded by UML, both at
a university<br>
>> level and<br>
>> > in industry - as an aside, I had never heard of NS
diagrams until I<br>
<br>
>> had to<br>
>> > teach it in IPM, and I had worked with ISO-9000
compliant<br>
>> corporations<br>
>> > developing major software products.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Similarly, the SDLC, as Steven has raised, is most
useful for<br>
>> large-scale<br>
>> > projects. Students will rarely experience the
benefit, nor the<br>
>> relevance, of<br>
>> > the SDLC, in a secondary school curriculum. More
useful theory<br>
>> would be a<br>
>> > more focused look at iterative design, extreme
programming (or any<br>
>> other<br>
>> > kind of agile software development), etc, and move
away from the<br>
>> excessive<br>
>> > documentation requirements that the SDLC brings to
the table.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > As a teacher, I would prefer to bring in key
aspects of the SDLC<br>
>> without<br>
>> > having to formally teach every part of it. For
example, a<br>
>> concentration on<br>
>> > testing and debugging of software - this is a
twofold benefit, as<br>
>> it teaches<br>
>> > students to be aware of how they choose to
implement functionality,<br>
<br>
>> and also<br>
>> > develops their analytical and observational skills
when they are<br>
>> debugging<br>
>> > an error. Bringing in Use Case Diagrams instead of
DFDs would be<br>
>> fantastic,<br>
>> > also, as it conceptually allows a student to think
through what<br>
>> they are<br>
>> > providing in their system before they develop it.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > In general, however, I have to say I am currently
much happier with<br>
<br>
>> the core<br>
>> > content of the Software Development course than I
was with the IT:<br>
>> > Applications course, but I still believe that it
is, at its core,<br>
>> dated and<br>
>> > at times irrelevant. In a perfect world, we would
be teaching our<br>
>> students<br>
>> > "good practice" programming while also
preparing them for a future<br>
>> path in<br>
>> > IT if they so choose - both at the tertiary level
and in industry.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > </soapbox><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Regards,<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Selina Dennis<br>
>> > Strathmore Secondary College<br>
>> ><br>
>> > -----Original Message-----<br>
>> > From: <a
href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a>]<br>
>> > On Behalf Of Steven Bird<br>
>> > Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:01 AM<br>
>> > To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing
List<br>
>> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice -
tertiary links<br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:timmer@melbpc.org.au">timmer@melbpc.org.au</a>>
wrote:<br>
>> >> I have to say that this discussion is heading
to Comp Sci circa<br>
>> 1990<br>
>> > (which<br>
>> >> is not necessarily a bad thing)<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT
subject. The theory<br>
<br>
>> on<br>
>> > which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older
still, but no-one<br>
>> > considers that dated.<br>
>> ><br>
>> >> but it seems to me that a couple of<br>
>> >> questions need to be answered first:<br>
>> >> 1. what do we want students to get out of
a technically-oriented<br>
>> Y12 IT<br>
>> > course?<br>
>> >> 2. is the course primarily intended to
prepare students for<br>
>> teritary,<br>
>> > work, or both?<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is
foundational study,<br>
>> > preparing students for whatever they choose to do
in future, even<br>
>> if<br>
>> > it involves no formal IT study or employment.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > For the students continuing from VCE Software
Development to a<br>
>> degree<br>
>> > in Software Engineering, we would prefer students
to have a solid<br>
>> > grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the
associated<br>
>> > programming skills. (The SDLC follows
naturally once they're ready<br>
<br>
>> to<br>
>> > scale up.)<br>
>> ><br>
>> > -Steven<br>
>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > <a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> > IT Software Development Mailing List kindly
supported by<br>
>> > <a href="http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au</a>
- Victorian Curriculum and Assessment<br>
>> Authority<br>
>> > and<br>
>> ><br>
>> ttp://<a
href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html"
target="_blank">www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</a>
-<br>
>> VITTA<br>
>> > Victorian Information Technology Teachers
Association Inc<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > ------------------------------<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Message: 3<br>
>> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:20:04 +1000<br>
>> > From: Mark Kelly <<a
href="mailto:kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au">kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a>><br>
>> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice -
tertiary links<br>
>> > To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers'
Mailing List"<br>
>> > <<a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a>><br>
>> > Message-ID: <<a
href="mailto:4807CD14.8060002@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au">4807CD14.8060002@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a>><br>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1;
format=flowed<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Yes - and we have to position VCE against VET,
which is the more<br>
>> > practical, work-oriented stream.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Frankly, I can't see SD being directly useful in
providing students<br>
<br>
>> with<br>
>> > workplace skills. It's simply not deep enough
in programming<br>
>> skills -<br>
>> > and it could never be in the time available.
And by the time the<br>
>> kids<br>
>> > took the tram from school to their first job, the
entire IT<br>
>> industry<br>
>> > would have had three technological revolutions in
the meantime, so<br>
>> any<br>
>> > language they learned would have been superseded.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I see SD as giving students a taste of the mindset
of software<br>
>> > development, to be developed later at uni or TAFE.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > 2.2c worth, and falling against the Yen.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Timmer-Arends wrote:<br>
>> >> I have to say that this discussion is heading
to Comp Sci circa<br>
>> 1990 (which<br>
>> >> is not necessarily a bad thing) but it seems to
me that a couple<br>
>> of<br>
>> >> questions need to be answered first:<br>
>> >> 1. what do we want students to get out of a
technically-oriented<br>
>> Y12 IT<br>
>> >> course?<br>
>> >> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare
students for<br>
>> teritary,<br>
>> >> work, or both?<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Regards<br>
>> >> Robert T-A<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven
Bird"<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:sb@csse.unimelb.edu.au">sb@csse.unimelb.edu.au</a>><br>
>> >> To: "Year 12 Software Development
Teachers' Mailing List"<br>
>> >> <<a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a>><br>
>> >> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:41 AM<br>
>> >> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice
- tertiary links<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >>> [Adrian -- thanks for picking a more
appropriate subject line now<br>
<br>
>> that<br>
>> >>> discussion has moved away from data flow
diagrams.]<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:28 PM, andrew
barry<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:jagguy999@gmail.com">jagguy999@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> >>> wrote:<br>
>> >>>> I prefer to just teach an IT subject
which is just programming<br>
>> and some<br>
>> >>>> programming design eg psuedo code.<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> I agree. Students should learn how to
walk before learning how<br>
>> to<br>
>> >>> run, i.e. they should be competent with
"programming<br>
>> in-the-small"<br>
>> >>> before they spend much time on
"programming in-the-large" (incl<br>
>> SDLC).<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>>> Including so much theory doesn't get
any student excited about<br>
>> learning<br>
>> >>>> IT<br>
>> >>>> at Uni. After all we are trying to
promote IT beyond yr12 are we<br>
<br>
>> not?<br>
>> >>>> Are<br>
>> >>>> we<br>
>> >>>> not trying to get more people to do it?<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> I agree with Adrian that rigour is
important, and this cuts<br>
>> across<br>
>> >>> analysis, design, implementation,
documentation, etc. The SDLC<br>
>> is one<br>
>> >>> source of theory but I question its
suitability at this level.<br>
>> It's<br>
>> >>> intended for software engineering projects
where you have to<br>
>> manage<br>
>> >>> whole teams of developers, client
relationships, project<br>
>> deliverables,<br>
>> >>> etc. When students aren't already
experienced at small-scale<br>
>> >>> programming the emphasis often falls on a
rather heavy document<br>
>> >>> process, which has to be one of the least
exciting aspects of<br>
>> software<br>
>> >>> development.<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> Another issue I have with the emphasis on
SDLC as a major source<br>
>> of<br>
>> >>> theoretical content is that it focusses too
much on the software<br>
>> >>> development process. Of course that's
entirely appropriate given<br>
<br>
>> the<br>
>> >>> title of the subject, but there's some
other areas of computing<br>
>> theory<br>
>> >>> that would be useful and accessible at this
level, including<br>
>> >>> algorithmic problem solving and the limits
of computing. Here's<br>
>> a<br>
>> >>> couple of introductory books that cover
these topics in a<br>
>> >>> non-mathematical yet rigorous and
intellectually stimulating way:<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> Algorithmics: The Spirit of Computing (3rd
Ed, David Harel,<br>
>> Addison<br>
>> >>> Wesley, 2004)<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> Computers Ltd: What They Really Can't Do
(David Harel, Oxford<br>
>> >>> University Press, 2000)<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> -Steven Bird<br>
>> >>> <a
href="http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/%7Esb/" target="_blank">http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/</a><br>
>> >>>
_______________________________________________<br>
>> >>> <a href="http://www.edulists.com.au"
target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> >>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly
supported by<br>
>> >>> <a href="http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au"
target="_blank">http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au</a> - Victorian Curriculum and
Assessment<br>
>> >>> Authority<br>
>> >>> and<br>
>> >>><br>
>> <a
href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html"
target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</a>
-<br>
>> >>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology
Teachers Association Inc<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > --<br>
>> > Mark Kelly<br>
>> > Manager - Information Systems<br>
>> > McKinnon Secondary College<br>
>> > McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia<br>
>> > Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085<br>
>> > School Phone +613 8520 9000<br>
>> > School Fax +613 95789253<br>
>> > kel AT <a href="http://mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au"
target="_blank">mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Webmaster - <a
href="http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a><br>
>> > IT Lecture notes: <a href="http://vceit.com"
target="_blank">http://vceit.com</a><br>
>> > Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List<br>
>> ><br>
>> > A conclusion is the place where you got sick of
thinking.<br>
>> > If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > ------------------------------<br>
>> ><br>
>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > sofdev mailing list<br>
>> > <a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> > <a
href="http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24<br>
>> > **************************************<br>
>> ><br>
>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > <a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au</a>
<<a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au</a>>
IT Software<br>
>> > Development Mailing List kindly supported by<br>
>> > <a
href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html"
target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</a><br>
>> > <<a
href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html"
target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</a><br>
<br>
>> > -<br>
>> > Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and<br>
>> > <a href="http://www.vitta.org.au" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au</a>
<<a href="http://www.vitta.org.au" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au</a>>
- VITTA Victorian<br>
>> > Information Technology Teachers Association Inc<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>> ><br>
>> > No virus found in this incoming message.<br>
>> > Checked by AVG.<br>
>> > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1375 -
Release Date:<br>
>> 12/04/2008 11:32 AM<br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> Mark Kelly<br>
>> Manager - Information Systems<br>
>> McKinnon Secondary College<br>
>> kel AT <a href="http://mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au"
target="_blank">mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a><br>
>> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia<br>
>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253<br>
>><br>
>> Webmaster - <a href="http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au"
target="_blank">http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a><br>
>> IT Lecture notes: <a href="http://vceit.com"
target="_blank">http://vceit.com</a><br>
>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List<br>
>><br>
>> Only those who swim against the current know the current
is there.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> Message: 2<br>
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:04:52 +1000<br>
>> From: "Meadows, Roslyn M" <<a
href="mailto:Meadows.Roslyn.M@edumail.vic.gov.au">Meadows.Roslyn.M@edumail.vic.gov.au</a>><br>
>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice -
tertiary links<br>
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing
List"<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a>><br>
>> Message-ID:<br>
>><br>
>> <<a
href="mailto:93564D1B69FCEC47BB2D847F7B0888DA0187937C@EDUSM03.education.vic.gov.au">93564D1B69FCEC47BB2D847F7B0888DA0187937C@EDUSM03.education.vic.gov.au</a>><br>
>><br>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
>><br>
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>> ------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> sofdev mailing list<br>
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>><br>
>><br>
>> End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26<br>
>> **************************************<br>
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- Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and <br>
<a href="http://www.vitta.org.au">http://www.vitta.org.au </a>- VITTA Victorian
Information Technology Teachers Association Inc<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p></p><p><b>Important - </b>This email and any attachments may be confidential. If received in error, please contact us and delete all copies. Before opening or using attachments check them for viruses and defects. Regardless of any loss, damage or consequence, whether caused by the negligence of the sender or not, resulting directly or indirectly from the use of any attached files our liability is limited to resupplying any affected attachments. Any representations or opinions expressed are those of the individual sender, and not necessarily those of the Department of Education and Early Childhood Development.</p>
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