The issue here is how to improve SD enrollment and relevance. The government is itching for change and even the adopt a schools policy sees IT as a major area . <br><br>Who is going to decide what we teach? business!<br><br>
In maths you teach maths and in english you teach english. What maths sac asks you to explain a legal consideration for the calculations or asks to list any business considerations and document elaborate plans to reach an answer? <br>
<br>Maths teaches maths and IT should teach IT and not IT/business models. Does a maths sac ask for any historical q's about where the formulas come from? Is maths well rounded ?<br><br>IT subjects should just teach programming and some design theory.<br>
<br><br><br><br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:42 PM, Adrian Janson <<a href="mailto:janson.adrian.a@edumail.vic.gov.au">janson.adrian.a@edumail.vic.gov.au</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Hi everyone,<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
"Teachers are NOT curriculum materials developers."<br>
<br>
</div>I have to say that this statement goes against everything that I believe. I<br>
have designed the Year 9 and Year 10 courses that I teach for IT - and I<br>
revise and update them each year so that they are well suited to the cohort<br>
that I teach. Who best understands the needs of our students? We each<br>
do... and when it comes to VCE - each one of us is passionate about what<br>
content is best suited to the future prospects of our VCE students and the<br>
discipline of ICT as a whole. I for one and passionate about ICT and have<br>
very definite views about what core skills ICT students need moving forward<br>
- into a career path or their lives.<br>
<br>
My 2c<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<font color="#888888">Adrian<br>
</font><div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a>]<br>
</div><div class="Ih2E3d">On Behalf Of Timmer-Arends<br>
Sent: Tuesday, 22 April 2008 6:25 PM<br>
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List<br>
</div><div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c">Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks<br>
(MarkKelly)<br>
<br>
>> Teachers are NOT curriculum materials developers.<br>
<br>
Stephen, I can't agree with this statement either, simply because I believe<br>
that is one of the crafts of being a teacher; ie being able to develop<br>
material which will help convey concepts and skills to students (and that<br>
might include dipping into whatever resources are available out there)<br>
<br>
I had thought from earlier posts on this topic that you originally meant<br>
that teachers should not be developing 'content'; ie deciding what skills<br>
and knowledge students should have by the end of a year. And I have some<br>
sympathy for this view - but maybe it's not what you meant in the first<br>
place???<br>
<br>
Anyway, I have come to the view that SDs need to be far more explicit and<br>
specific about what knowledge/skills students should have by the end of Year<br>
<br>
12. It is the final year of secondary enducation and I cannot see any other<br>
way of guaranteeing any sort of standard. Providing flexibility in a course<br>
so that teachers can meet the needs of their students is one thing (and<br>
important), but allowing teachers to decide the depth themselves is<br>
problematic, and I suspect leads to the exam becoming the standard setter,<br>
and I don't know that that is a good thing.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Robert T-A<br>
Brighton SC<br>
<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Mark Kelly" <<a href="mailto:kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au">kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a>><br>
To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"<br>
<<a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a>><br>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:07 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiarylinks<br>
(MarkKelly)<br>
<br>
<br>
><br>
> Stephen Digby wrote:<br>
>> Here here !!!<br>
>> I say again.....<br>
>><br>
<br>
><br>
> Oooh - I think we are. But we often rely on textbook writers to save us<br>
> doing it ourselves. We still have to choose which materials we use.<br>
><br>
>> It is the curriculum design authorities responsibility to provide<br>
>> classroom teaching materials to teachers (preferably with a range of<br>
>> options !).<br>
><br>
> Is it? This would come as a surprise to most curriculum design<br>
> authorities - except the ones in China, perhaps. If they DID provide<br>
> anything more than sample teaching materials, I would be deeply worried<br>
> about government interference.<br>
><br>
>> It is teachers responsibility to understand the content and their<br>
>> students so that they can use these materials to plan, prep, teach,<br>
>> correct, and communicate<br>
>> Inevitably teachers will tweak for their own class and discover<br>
>> possibilities, alternatives, improvements.<br>
>> The second responsibility of the curriculum design authority should be to<br>
<br>
>> systematically collect and utilise this field testing to improve the<br>
>> curriculum design.<br>
>> Two examples to show how simple these processes are:<br>
>> - give the curriculum design to all publishers and ask for draft<br>
>> responses in terms of classroom material support. Choose a single<br>
>> publisher as the recommended support material for a definite period e.g<br>
>> 3 years so that they have the chance to profit from their recommended<br>
>> status.<br>
><br>
> I can already hear the screaming about this one. One vital feature of<br>
> education is the freedom to use a variety of suitable resources at the<br>
> discretion of the student and teacher.<br>
> Choosing a "preferred" publisher would cause sales of other 'unapproved'<br>
> texts to evaporate, and considering the already-precarious IT textbook<br>
> sales figures most other publishers would not bother releasing a text at<br>
> all.<br>
><br>
> This would, in effect, result in a single textbook and stifle the richness<br>
<br>
> of available opinion and pedagogical style. Publishers would be in<br>
> revolt - quite justifiably.<br>
><br>
> And how will the 'approved' text be chosen? Do you expect VCAA to choose<br>
> a publisher on the basis of a proposal and a sample chapter from<br>
> publishers? For that would be the only way it could work: VCAA would have<br>
<br>
> no finished textbook to base its judgement on because NO publisher is<br>
> going to pay authors to create a full text and submit it in the hope of<br>
> being picked. It just would not happen!<br>
><br>
> And if the preferred text was later found to be flawed in some way, the<br>
> VCAA would be partially culpable. I don't think they want such problems<br>
> being beaten to death on the nightly current affairs shows.<br>
><br>
> The only 'DEECD preferred' suppliers are, and should remain to be, related<br>
<br>
> to the supply of software, hardware and leasing services. They must not<br>
> extend to educational resources. If the VCAA started down this path they<br>
> would be in a world of trouble. I think this is why they are so chary<br>
> about recommending any resources apart from their own - the exception<br>
> being the last 2 pages of the study design.<br>
><br>
><br>
>> Of course, a recommendation is not a compulsion, and schools may choose<br>
>> not to use the recommended resources. The likelihood that they be chosen<br>
<br>
>> again will of course depend on the ongoing feedback re. the quality of<br>
>> their resources and their continued support through the 3 years.<br>
>> - require all teachers in all govt schools to provide copies of their sac<br>
<br>
>> tasks with a sample answer from the teacher. (No cost. No copyright as<br>
>> the work is owned by the government). Select the best 50 and publish on<br>
>> line (No Cost) as exemplars to assist teachers in Year 2.<br>
><br>
> I bet VCAA is quite busy enough assessing the few tasks they call for<br>
> during subject auditing. If every SAC had to be independently judged, the<br>
<br>
> VCAA would either collapse under the weight, or grow to rival the size of<br>
> the public service sector of Bulgaria. :-)<br>
>> etc etc etc<br>
><br>
> But thanks for the interesting post, Stephen. I'm sure it will stimulate<br>
> discussion.<br>
>> ====================================================<br>
>> Stephen Digby, Learning Technology Manager<br>
>> mailto: <a href="mailto:digby.stephen.p@edumail.vic.gov.au">digby.stephen.p@edumail.vic.gov.au</a><br>
>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:digby.stephen.p@edumail.vic.gov.au">digby.stephen.p@edumail.vic.gov.au</a>> Cheltenham Secondary College<br>
<br>
>> <a href="http://www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au</a> <<a href="http://www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au/" target="_blank">http://www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au/</a>><br>
>> Ph: 613 955 55 955 Fx: 9555 8617 Mb: 0431-701-028<br>
>> ====================================================<br>
>> The other day somebody stole everything in my apartment and replaced it<br>
>> with an exact replica... When my roommate came home I said, "Roommate,<br>
>> someone stole everything in our apartment and replaced it with an exact<br>
>> replica." He looked at me and said, "Do I know you?" Steven Wright<br>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>> *From:* <a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a>] *On Behalf Of *Russell Quinn<br>
>> *Sent:* Monday, 21 April 2008 10:33 AM<br>
>> *To:* <a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> *Subject:* [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary<br>
>> links (MarkKelly)<br>
>><br>
>> Hi again,<br>
>> I am really sorry to be so negative all of the time but<br>
>> I find<br>
>> this an appalling situation and I cannot stay silent.<br>
>> What I have been constantly hearing through the mail<br>
>> is that we have SD teachers who don't know<br>
>> what to teach and don't know why they are teaching it.<br>
>> Rest assured, it is not the teaching staff I hold to account.<br>
>> Consider all of the wasted time, sleep and worry by teaching<br>
>> staff who should be devoting their time and energy into how to<br>
>> teach it, preparing great materials and assessing the students work.<br>
>> Instead we have people running around in circles trying to work<br>
>> out what to do.<br>
>> No wonder people are not keen to write their own SAC's.<br>
>> Apparently the VCAA is quite happy with the status quo. I look<br>
>> forward to making a positive contribution soon.<br>
>> Russell Quinn<br>
>> Mailto: <a href="mailto:qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au">qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au">qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au</a>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>> *From:* <a href="mailto:sofdev-request@edulists.com.au">sofdev-request@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 10:06 PM<br>
>> *To:* <a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26<br>
>><br>
>> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to<br>
>> <a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>><br>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>
>> <a href="http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev</a><br>
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>
>> <a href="mailto:sofdev-request@edulists.com.au">sofdev-request@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>><br>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at<br>
>> <a href="mailto:sofdev-owner@edulists.com.au">sofdev-owner@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>><br>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
>> than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Today's Topics:<br>
>><br>
>> 1. Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)<br>
>> 2. RE: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Meadows, Roslyn M)<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> Message: 1<br>
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:40:09 +1000<br>
>> From: Mark Kelly <<a href="mailto:kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au">kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a>><br>
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links<br>
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a>><br>
>> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:48088899.8050808@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au">48088899.8050808@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a>><br>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br>
>><br>
>> Maybe the first thing to do is to decide what VCE SD is for.<br>
>><br>
>> What is it meant to achieve?<br>
>><br>
>> Is it meant to be a preparation for tertiary study?<br>
>> Is it meant to be a skills-based preparation for work?<br>
>> Is it meant to be a fun 12 months until uni begins?<br>
>> Is it meant to give hope to kids who are unqualified for any other<br>
>> VCE<br>
>> subject?<br>
>><br>
>> I'm sure the VCAA has a good answer to this. It would be interesting<br>
>> to<br>
>> hear it. Then, maybe, we can start re-defining SD - and ITA.<br>
>><br>
>> That's assuming VCE IT NEEDS to be redefined...<br>
>><br>
>> Which is maybe a good place for the review of the VCE IT Study Design<br>
<br>
>> to<br>
>> begin...<br>
>><br>
>> And when it does, Paula, I hope it's virtual rather than with<br>
>> meetings<br>
>> in the city. I'd much rather sit at home with a glass of Cab Sav and<br>
>> take time to ponder the intricacies of an argument, do research, and<br>
>> fast-forward through the boring people - rather than commute to the<br>
>> big<br>
>> smoke and sit with a dozen passionate people all determined to get a<br>
>> word in edgewise within an hour so no-one's argument can get fully<br>
>> thought-out, crafted and developed in its entirety.<br>
>><br>
>> Oooh! Saint Kilda's winning. Must go...<br>
>><br>
>> Russell Quinn wrote:<br>
>> > The first thing would be inclined to do is throw out all of the<br>
>> > networking -<br>
>> > which is totally irrelevant to software development (except to a<br>
>> small and<br>
>> > select few specialists) and replace it with actual software<br>
>> development.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I also think the obsession with the business models should be<br>
>> downplayed,<br>
>> > and the scenario's broadened to something far more interesting.<br>
>> After<br>
>> > all, business<br>
>> > is just one of the reasons for writing software, and not a very<br>
>> > interesting one at that.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > It appears that students are voting with their feet, and I can see<br>
>> their<br>
>> > point.<br>
>> > The only way to plug the leak is to make the courses software based<br>
<br>
>> and<br>
>> > interesting.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Russell Quinn<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Mailto: <a href="mailto:qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au">qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au">qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au</a>><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>> > *From:* <a href="mailto:sofdev-request@edulists.com.au">sofdev-request@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> > *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 12:00 PM<br>
>> > *To:* <a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> > *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Send sofdev mailing list submissions to<br>
>> > <a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>
>> > <a href="http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev</a><br>
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>
>> > <a href="mailto:sofdev-request@edulists.com.au">sofdev-request@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at<br>
>> > <a href="mailto:sofdev-owner@edulists.com.au">sofdev-owner@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
>> > than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Today's Topics:<br>
>> ><br>
>> > 1. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Steven Bird)<br>
>> > 2. RE: Industry practice - tertiary links (Selina Dennis)<br>
>> > 3. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Message: 1<br>
>> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:00:37 +1000<br>
>> > From: "Steven Bird" <<a href="mailto:sb@csse.unimelb.edu.au">sb@csse.unimelb.edu.au</a>><br>
>> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links<br>
>> > To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"<br>
>> > <<a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a>><br>
>> > Message-ID:<br>
>> > <<a href="mailto:97e4e62e0804171400q6bf98a9fq3acd059906fe980@mail.gmail.com">97e4e62e0804171400q6bf98a9fq3acd059906fe980@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:timmer@melbpc.org.au">timmer@melbpc.org.au</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa<br>
>> 1990 (which<br>
>> >> is not necessarily a bad thing)<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject. The theory<br>
<br>
>> on<br>
>> > which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one<br>
>> > considers that dated.<br>
>> ><br>
>> >> but it seems to me that a couple of<br>
>> >> questions need to be answered first:<br>
>> >> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented<br>
>> Y12 IT course?<br>
>> >> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for<br>
>> teritary, work, or both?<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,<br>
>> > preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even<br>
>> if<br>
>> > it involves no formal IT study or employment.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a<br>
>> degree<br>
>> > in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid<br>
>> > grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated<br>
>> > programming skills. (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready<br>
<br>
>> to<br>
>> > scale up.)<br>
>> ><br>
>> > -Steven<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > ------------------------------<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Message: 2<br>
>> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:09:16 +1000<br>
>> > From: "Selina Dennis" <<a href="mailto:selina@dennis.net.au">selina@dennis.net.au</a>><br>
>> > Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links<br>
>> > To: "'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'"<br>
>> > <<a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a>><br>
>> > Message-ID: <003801c8a0d7$aed8dd80$0c8a9880$@net.au><br>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I am both a Year 12 Software Development teacher and a Computer<br>
>> Science<br>
>> > graduate - I completed my CS degree late in life, circa 2005 - and<br>
>> as<br>
>> > someone who has worked in the IT industry since 1996, I must say<br>
>> that I<br>
>> > concur with Steven Bird's view that there is a chasm between<br>
>> secondary<br>
>> > school teaching of IT and tertiary teaching of IT. For students in<br>
>> Year 12,<br>
>> > the key components of software development that they will "get the<br>
>> most out<br>
>> > of", is the theory behind algorithms, problem solving, and also the<br>
>> > development of their basic thinking skills. I've been teaching<br>
>> PHP/mySQL to<br>
>> > my students this year and while most have come into the course<br>
>> having<br>
>> > completed Year 10 and 11 IT, they still did not have a basic<br>
>> understanding<br>
>> > of fundamental programming concepts at the start of the year.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Perhaps this is more of a "theological" discussion on how to teach<br>
>> > programming to teenagers, but it's also relevant to note that much<br>
>> of the<br>
>> > theory that is being taught in Year 12 is rarely used or developed<br>
>> in either<br>
>> > tertiary study or in industry. One such example is diagrams - N-S<br>
>> Diagrams,<br>
>> > DFDs, etc have long been superseded by UML, both at a university<br>
>> level and<br>
>> > in industry - as an aside, I had never heard of NS diagrams until I<br>
<br>
>> had to<br>
>> > teach it in IPM, and I had worked with ISO-9000 compliant<br>
>> corporations<br>
>> > developing major software products.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Similarly, the SDLC, as Steven has raised, is most useful for<br>
>> large-scale<br>
>> > projects. Students will rarely experience the benefit, nor the<br>
>> relevance, of<br>
>> > the SDLC, in a secondary school curriculum. More useful theory<br>
>> would be a<br>
>> > more focused look at iterative design, extreme programming (or any<br>
>> other<br>
>> > kind of agile software development), etc, and move away from the<br>
>> excessive<br>
>> > documentation requirements that the SDLC brings to the table.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > As a teacher, I would prefer to bring in key aspects of the SDLC<br>
>> without<br>
>> > having to formally teach every part of it. For example, a<br>
>> concentration on<br>
>> > testing and debugging of software - this is a twofold benefit, as<br>
>> it teaches<br>
>> > students to be aware of how they choose to implement functionality,<br>
<br>
>> and also<br>
>> > develops their analytical and observational skills when they are<br>
>> debugging<br>
>> > an error. Bringing in Use Case Diagrams instead of DFDs would be<br>
>> fantastic,<br>
>> > also, as it conceptually allows a student to think through what<br>
>> they are<br>
>> > providing in their system before they develop it.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > In general, however, I have to say I am currently much happier with<br>
<br>
>> the core<br>
>> > content of the Software Development course than I was with the IT:<br>
>> > Applications course, but I still believe that it is, at its core,<br>
>> dated and<br>
>> > at times irrelevant. In a perfect world, we would be teaching our<br>
>> students<br>
>> > "good practice" programming while also preparing them for a future<br>
>> path in<br>
>> > IT if they so choose - both at the tertiary level and in industry.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > </soapbox><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Regards,<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Selina Dennis<br>
>> > Strathmore Secondary College<br>
>> ><br>
>> > -----Original Message-----<br>
>> > From: <a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au">sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au</a>]<br>
>> > On Behalf Of Steven Bird<br>
>> > Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:01 AM<br>
>> > To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List<br>
>> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links<br>
>> ><br>
>> > On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:timmer@melbpc.org.au">timmer@melbpc.org.au</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa<br>
>> 1990<br>
>> > (which<br>
>> >> is not necessarily a bad thing)<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject. The theory<br>
<br>
>> on<br>
>> > which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one<br>
>> > considers that dated.<br>
>> ><br>
>> >> but it seems to me that a couple of<br>
>> >> questions need to be answered first:<br>
>> >> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented<br>
>> Y12 IT<br>
>> > course?<br>
>> >> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for<br>
>> teritary,<br>
>> > work, or both?<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,<br>
>> > preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even<br>
>> if<br>
>> > it involves no formal IT study or employment.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a<br>
>> degree<br>
>> > in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid<br>
>> > grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated<br>
>> > programming skills. (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready<br>
<br>
>> to<br>
>> > scale up.)<br>
>> ><br>
>> > -Steven<br>
>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > <a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> > IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by<br>
>> > <a href="http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au</a> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment<br>
>> Authority<br>
>> > and<br>
>> ><br>
>> ttp://<a href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html" target="_blank">www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</a> -<br>
>> VITTA<br>
>> > Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > ------------------------------<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Message: 3<br>
>> > Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:20:04 +1000<br>
>> > From: Mark Kelly <<a href="mailto:kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au">kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a>><br>
>> > Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links<br>
>> > To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"<br>
>> > <<a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a>><br>
>> > Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:4807CD14.8060002@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au">4807CD14.8060002@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a>><br>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Yes - and we have to position VCE against VET, which is the more<br>
>> > practical, work-oriented stream.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Frankly, I can't see SD being directly useful in providing students<br>
<br>
>> with<br>
>> > workplace skills. It's simply not deep enough in programming<br>
>> skills -<br>
>> > and it could never be in the time available. And by the time the<br>
>> kids<br>
>> > took the tram from school to their first job, the entire IT<br>
>> industry<br>
>> > would have had three technological revolutions in the meantime, so<br>
>> any<br>
>> > language they learned would have been superseded.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I see SD as giving students a taste of the mindset of software<br>
>> > development, to be developed later at uni or TAFE.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > 2.2c worth, and falling against the Yen.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Timmer-Arends wrote:<br>
>> >> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa<br>
>> 1990 (which<br>
>> >> is not necessarily a bad thing) but it seems to me that a couple<br>
>> of<br>
>> >> questions need to be answered first:<br>
>> >> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented<br>
>> Y12 IT<br>
>> >> course?<br>
>> >> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for<br>
>> teritary,<br>
>> >> work, or both?<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Regards<br>
>> >> Robert T-A<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Bird"<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:sb@csse.unimelb.edu.au">sb@csse.unimelb.edu.au</a>><br>
>> >> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"<br>
>> >> <<a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a>><br>
>> >> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:41 AM<br>
>> >> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >>> [Adrian -- thanks for picking a more appropriate subject line now<br>
<br>
>> that<br>
>> >>> discussion has moved away from data flow diagrams.]<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:28 PM, andrew barry<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:jagguy999@gmail.com">jagguy999@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> >>> wrote:<br>
>> >>>> I prefer to just teach an IT subject which is just programming<br>
>> and some<br>
>> >>>> programming design eg psuedo code.<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> I agree. Students should learn how to walk before learning how<br>
>> to<br>
>> >>> run, i.e. they should be competent with "programming<br>
>> in-the-small"<br>
>> >>> before they spend much time on "programming in-the-large" (incl<br>
>> SDLC).<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>>> Including so much theory doesn't get any student excited about<br>
>> learning<br>
>> >>>> IT<br>
>> >>>> at Uni. After all we are trying to promote IT beyond yr12 are we<br>
<br>
>> not?<br>
>> >>>> Are<br>
>> >>>> we<br>
>> >>>> not trying to get more people to do it?<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> I agree with Adrian that rigour is important, and this cuts<br>
>> across<br>
>> >>> analysis, design, implementation, documentation, etc. The SDLC<br>
>> is one<br>
>> >>> source of theory but I question its suitability at this level.<br>
>> It's<br>
>> >>> intended for software engineering projects where you have to<br>
>> manage<br>
>> >>> whole teams of developers, client relationships, project<br>
>> deliverables,<br>
>> >>> etc. When students aren't already experienced at small-scale<br>
>> >>> programming the emphasis often falls on a rather heavy document<br>
>> >>> process, which has to be one of the least exciting aspects of<br>
>> software<br>
>> >>> development.<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> Another issue I have with the emphasis on SDLC as a major source<br>
>> of<br>
>> >>> theoretical content is that it focusses too much on the software<br>
>> >>> development process. Of course that's entirely appropriate given<br>
<br>
>> the<br>
>> >>> title of the subject, but there's some other areas of computing<br>
>> theory<br>
>> >>> that would be useful and accessible at this level, including<br>
>> >>> algorithmic problem solving and the limits of computing. Here's<br>
>> a<br>
>> >>> couple of introductory books that cover these topics in a<br>
>> >>> non-mathematical yet rigorous and intellectually stimulating way:<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> Algorithmics: The Spirit of Computing (3rd Ed, David Harel,<br>
>> Addison<br>
>> >>> Wesley, 2004)<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> Computers Ltd: What They Really Can't Do (David Harel, Oxford<br>
>> >>> University Press, 2000)<br>
>> >>><br>
>> >>> -Steven Bird<br>
>> >>> <a href="http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/%7Esb/" target="_blank">http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/</a><br>
>> >>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> >>> <a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> >>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by<br>
>> >>> <a href="http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au</a> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment<br>
>> >>> Authority<br>
>> >>> and<br>
>> >>><br>
>> <a href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</a> -<br>
>> >>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > --<br>
>> > Mark Kelly<br>
>> > Manager - Information Systems<br>
>> > McKinnon Secondary College<br>
>> > McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia<br>
>> > Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085<br>
>> > School Phone +613 8520 9000<br>
>> > School Fax +613 95789253<br>
>> > kel AT <a href="http://mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Webmaster - <a href="http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a><br>
>> > IT Lecture notes: <a href="http://vceit.com" target="_blank">http://vceit.com</a><br>
>> > Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List<br>
>> ><br>
>> > A conclusion is the place where you got sick of thinking.<br>
>> > If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > ------------------------------<br>
>> ><br>
>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > sofdev mailing list<br>
>> > <a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> > <a href="http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24<br>
>> > **************************************<br>
>> ><br>
>> > _______________________________________________<br>
>> > <a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au</a> <<a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au</a>> IT Software<br>
>> > Development Mailing List kindly supported by<br>
>> > <a href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</a><br>
>> > <<a href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</a><br>
<br>
>> > -<br>
>> > Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and<br>
>> > <a href="http://www.vitta.org.au" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au</a> <<a href="http://www.vitta.org.au" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au</a>> - VITTA Victorian<br>
>> > Information Technology Teachers Association Inc<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>> ><br>
>> > No virus found in this incoming message.<br>
>> > Checked by AVG.<br>
>> > Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1375 - Release Date:<br>
>> 12/04/2008 11:32 AM<br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> Mark Kelly<br>
>> Manager - Information Systems<br>
>> McKinnon Secondary College<br>
>> kel AT <a href="http://mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a><br>
>> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia<br>
>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253<br>
>><br>
>> Webmaster - <a href="http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a><br>
>> IT Lecture notes: <a href="http://vceit.com" target="_blank">http://vceit.com</a><br>
>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List<br>
>><br>
>> Only those who swim against the current know the current is there.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> Message: 2<br>
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:04:52 +1000<br>
>> From: "Meadows, Roslyn M" <<a href="mailto:Meadows.Roslyn.M@edumail.vic.gov.au">Meadows.Roslyn.M@edumail.vic.gov.au</a>><br>
>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links<br>
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a>><br>
>> Message-ID:<br>
>><br>
>> <<a href="mailto:93564D1B69FCEC47BB2D847F7B0888DA0187937C@EDUSM03.education.vic.gov.au">93564D1B69FCEC47BB2D847F7B0888DA0187937C@EDUSM03.education.vic.gov.au</a>><br>
>><br>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
>><br>
>> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next<br>
>> part --------------<br>
>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...<br>
>> Name: not available<br>
>> Type: image/jpeg<br>
>> Size: 1381 bytes<br>
>> Desc: image001.jpg<br>
>> Url :<br>
>><br>
<a href="http://www.edulists.com.au/pipermail/sofdev/attachments/20080418/0b541aa2/at" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au/pipermail/sofdev/attachments/20080418/0b541aa2/at</a><br>
tachment.jpe<br>
>> -------------- next part --------------<br>
>> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...<br>
>> Name: not available<br>
>> Type: image/jpeg<br>
>> Size: 1316 bytes<br>
>> Desc: image002.jpg<br>
>> Url :<br>
>><br>
<a href="http://www.edulists.com.au/pipermail/sofdev/attachments/20080418/0b541aa2/attachment-0001.jpe" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au/pipermail/sofdev/attachments/20080418/0b541aa2/at<br>
tachment-0001.jpe</a><br>
>><br>
>> ------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> sofdev mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</a><br>
>> <a href="http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26<br>
>> **************************************<br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> <a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au</a> <<a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au</a>>IT Software<br>
>> Development Mailing List kindly supported by<br>
>> <a href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</a><br>
>> <<a href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</a><br>
>> > - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and<br>
>> <a href="http://www.vitta.org.au" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au</a> <<a href="http://www.vitta.org.au" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au</a>>- VITTA Victorian<br>
>> Information Technology Teachers Association Inc *Important - *This<br>
>> email and any attachments may be confidential. If received in error,<br>
>> please contact us and delete all copies. Before opening or using<br>
>> attachments check them for viruses and defects. Regardless of any loss,<br>
>> damage or consequence, whether caused by the negligence of the sender or<br>
>> not, resulting directly or indirectly from the use of any attached files<br>
>> our liability is limited to resupplying any affected attachments. Any<br>
>> representations or opinions expressed are those of the individual sender,<br>
<br>
>> and not necessarily those of the Department of Education and Early<br>
>> Childhood Development.<br>
>><br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> <a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au</a> <<a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au</a>> IT Software<br>
>> Development Mailing List kindly supported by<br>
>> <a href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</a><br>
>> <<a href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</a> > -<br>
>> Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and<br>
>> <a href="http://www.vitta.org.au" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au</a> <<a href="http://www.vitta.org.au" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au</a>> - VITTA Victorian<br>
>> Information Technology Teachers Association Inc<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>><br>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.<br>
>> Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.2/1387 -<br>
>> Release Date: 19/04/2008 11:31 AM<br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Mark Kelly<br>
> Manager - Information Systems<br>
> McKinnon Secondary College<br>
> kel AT <a href="http://mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a><br>
> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia<br>
> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253<br>
><br>
> Webmaster - <a href="http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a><br>
> IT Lecture notes: <a href="http://vceit.com" target="_blank">http://vceit.com</a><br>
> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List<br>
><br>
> Only those who swim against the current know the current is there.<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> <a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au</a><br>
> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by<br>
> <a href="http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au</a> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority<br>
<br>
> and<br>
> <a href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</a> -<br>
> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au</a><br>
IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by<br>
<a href="http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au</a> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority<br>
and<br>
<a href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</a> - VITTA<br>
Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au</a><br>
IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by<br>
<a href="http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au</a> - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and<br>
<a href="http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html</a> - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>