<HTML dir=ltr><HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV id=idOWAReplyText11031 dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Hi Mark,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2> excellent indeed to hear this news.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hopefully the constant stream of email</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>asking" what do we teach, what level to we</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>go to" will have been heard.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV id=idSignature24950>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Russell Quinn</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mailto: <A href="mailto:qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au" target=_blank>qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au</A></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> sofdev-request@edulists.com.au<BR><B>Sent:</B> Mon 21/04/2008 4:58 PM<BR><B>To:</B> sofdev@edulists.com.au<BR><B>Subject:</B> sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 32<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><PRE style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
sofdev@edulists.com.au
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
(Mark Kelly)
2. RE: Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (MarkKelly)
(Christophersen, Paula P)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:37:00 +1000
From: Mark Kelly <kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary
links (Mark Kelly)
To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
<sofdev@edulists.com.au>
Message-ID: <480BFDCC.5060407@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hi Russell. I don't think the situation is as grim as you fear. I'm
just taking advantage of an potentially-imminent study design review to
deconstruct the beast, study its entrails and ask a few questions.
Naturally, VCAA has a strong idea of what VCE SD is for: I'm just
wondering whether it has been questioned recently.
And since many tertiary people and employers have hopes & expectations
of VCE courses, it's worth review whether, or how much, different
stakeholders' desires are being satisfied.
I like taking things apart - and sometimes putting them back together
again :-)
Cheers
Mark
Russell Quinn wrote:
> Hi again,
> I am really sorry to be so negative all of the time but I find
> this an appalling situation and I cannot stay silent.
>
> What I have been constantly hearing through the mail
> is that we have SD teachers who don't know
> what to teach and don't know why they are teaching it.
> Rest assured, it is not the teaching staff I hold to account.
>
> Consider all of the wasted time, sleep and worry by teaching
> staff who should be devoting their time and energy into how to
> teach it, preparing great materials and assessing the students work.
> Instead we have people running around in circles trying to work
> out what to do.
>
> No wonder people are not keen to write their own SAC's.
> Apparently the VCAA is quite happy with the status quo.
>
> I look forward to making a positive contribution soon.
>
> Russell Quinn
>
> Mailto: qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* sofdev-request@edulists.com.au
> *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 10:06 PM
> *To:* sofdev@edulists.com.au
> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
>
> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
> sofdev@edulists.com.au
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> sofdev-request@edulists.com.au
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> sofdev-owner@edulists.com.au
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
> 2. RE: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Meadows, Roslyn M)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:40:09 +1000
> From: Mark Kelly <kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
> <sofdev@edulists.com.au>
> Message-ID: <48088899.8050808@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Maybe the first thing to do is to decide what VCE SD is for.
>
> What is it meant to achieve?
>
> Is it meant to be a preparation for tertiary study?
> Is it meant to be a skills-based preparation for work?
> Is it meant to be a fun 12 months until uni begins?
> Is it meant to give hope to kids who are unqualified for any other VCE
> subject?
>
> I'm sure the VCAA has a good answer to this. It would be interesting to
> hear it. Then, maybe, we can start re-defining SD - and ITA.
>
> That's assuming VCE IT NEEDS to be redefined...
>
> Which is maybe a good place for the review of the VCE IT Study Design to
> begin...
>
> And when it does, Paula, I hope it's virtual rather than with meetings
> in the city. I'd much rather sit at home with a glass of Cab Sav and
> take time to ponder the intricacies of an argument, do research, and
> fast-forward through the boring people - rather than commute to the big
> smoke and sit with a dozen passionate people all determined to get a
> word in edgewise within an hour so no-one's argument can get fully
> thought-out, crafted and developed in its entirety.
>
> Oooh! Saint Kilda's winning. Must go...
>
> Russell Quinn wrote:
>> The first thing would be inclined to do is throw out all of the
>> networking -
>> which is totally irrelevant to software development (except to a small and
>> select few specialists) and replace it with actual software development.
>>
>> I also think the obsession with the business models should be downplayed,
>> and the scenario's broadened to something far more interesting. After
>> all, business
>> is just one of the reasons for writing software, and not a very
>> interesting one at that.
>>
>> It appears that students are voting with their feet, and I can see their
>> point.
>> The only way to plug the leak is to make the courses software based and
>> interesting.
>>
>> Russell Quinn
>>
>> Mailto: qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* sofdev-request@edulists.com.au
>> *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 12:00 PM
>> *To:* sofdev@edulists.com.au
>> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>>
>> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
>> sofdev@edulists.com.au
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> sofdev-request@edulists.com.au
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> sofdev-owner@edulists.com.au
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Steven Bird)
>> 2. RE: Industry practice - tertiary links (Selina Dennis)
>> 3. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:00:37 +1000
>> From: "Steven Bird" <sb@csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>> <sofdev@edulists.com.au>
>> Message-ID:
>> <97e4e62e0804171400q6bf98a9fq3acd059906fe980@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends <timmer@melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990 (which
>>> is not necessarily a bad thing)
>>
>> Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject. The theory on
>> which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
>> considers that dated.
>>
>>> but it seems to me that a couple of
>>> questions need to be answered first:
>>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12 IT course?
>>> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for teritary, work, or both?
>>
>> Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
>> preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even if
>> it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>>
>> For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a degree
>> in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
>> grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
>> programming skills. (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready to
>> scale up.)
>>
>> -Steven
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:09:16 +1000
>> From: "Selina Dennis" <selina@dennis.net.au>
>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>> To: "'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'"
>> <sofdev@edulists.com.au>
>> Message-ID: <003801c8a0d7$aed8dd80$0c8a9880$@net.au>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> I am both a Year 12 Software Development teacher and a Computer Science
>> graduate - I completed my CS degree late in life, circa 2005 - and as
>> someone who has worked in the IT industry since 1996, I must say that I
>> concur with Steven Bird's view that there is a chasm between secondary
>> school teaching of IT and tertiary teaching of IT. For students in Year 12,
>> the key components of software development that they will "get the most out
>> of", is the theory behind algorithms, problem solving, and also the
>> development of their basic thinking skills. I've been teaching PHP/mySQL to
>> my students this year and while most have come into the course having
>> completed Year 10 and 11 IT, they still did not have a basic understanding
>> of fundamental programming concepts at the start of the year.
>>
>> Perhaps this is more of a "theological" discussion on how to teach
>> programming to teenagers, but it's also relevant to note that much of the
>> theory that is being taught in Year 12 is rarely used or developed in either
>> tertiary study or in industry. One such example is diagrams - N-S Diagrams,
>> DFDs, etc have long been superseded by UML, both at a university level and
>> in industry - as an aside, I had never heard of NS diagrams until I had to
>> teach it in IPM, and I had worked with ISO-9000 compliant corporations
>> developing major software products.
>>
>> Similarly, the SDLC, as Steven has raised, is most useful for large-scale
>> projects. Students will rarely experience the benefit, nor the relevance, of
>> the SDLC, in a secondary school curriculum. More useful theory would be a
>> more focused look at iterative design, extreme programming (or any other
>> kind of agile software development), etc, and move away from the excessive
>> documentation requirements that the SDLC brings to the table.
>>
>> As a teacher, I would prefer to bring in key aspects of the SDLC without
>> having to formally teach every part of it. For example, a concentration on
>> testing and debugging of software - this is a twofold benefit, as it teaches
>> students to be aware of how they choose to implement functionality, and also
>> develops their analytical and observational skills when they are debugging
>> an error. Bringing in Use Case Diagrams instead of DFDs would be fantastic,
>> also, as it conceptually allows a student to think through what they are
>> providing in their system before they develop it.
>>
>> In general, however, I have to say I am currently much happier with the core
>> content of the Software Development course than I was with the IT:
>> Applications course, but I still believe that it is, at its core, dated and
>> at times irrelevant. In a perfect world, we would be teaching our students
>> "good practice" programming while also preparing them for a future path in
>> IT if they so choose - both at the tertiary level and in industry.
>>
>> </soapbox>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Selina Dennis
>> Strathmore Secondary College
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au [mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au]
>> On Behalf Of Steven Bird
>> Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:01 AM
>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends <timmer@melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990
>> (which
>>> is not necessarily a bad thing)
>>
>> Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject. The theory on
>> which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
>> considers that dated.
>>
>>> but it seems to me that a couple of
>>> questions need to be answered first:
>>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12 IT
>> course?
>>> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for teritary,
>> work, or both?
>>
>> Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
>> preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even if
>> it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>>
>> For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a degree
>> in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
>> grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
>> programming skills. (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready to
>> scale up.)
>>
>> -Steven
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority
>> and
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html - VITTA
>> Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:20:04 +1000
>> From: Mark Kelly <kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>> <sofdev@edulists.com.au>
>> Message-ID: <4807CD14.8060002@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Yes - and we have to position VCE against VET, which is the more
>> practical, work-oriented stream.
>>
>> Frankly, I can't see SD being directly useful in providing students with
>> workplace skills. It's simply not deep enough in programming skills -
>> and it could never be in the time available. And by the time the kids
>> took the tram from school to their first job, the entire IT industry
>> would have had three technological revolutions in the meantime, so any
>> language they learned would have been superseded.
>>
>> I see SD as giving students a taste of the mindset of software
>> development, to be developed later at uni or TAFE.
>>
>> 2.2c worth, and falling against the Yen.
>>
>> Timmer-Arends wrote:
>>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990 (which
>>> is not necessarily a bad thing) but it seems to me that a couple of
>>> questions need to be answered first:
>>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12 IT
>>> course?
>>> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for teritary,
>>> work, or both?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Robert T-A
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Bird" <sb@csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>> <sofdev@edulists.com.au>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:41 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>>
>>>
>>>> [Adrian -- thanks for picking a more appropriate subject line now that
>>>> discussion has moved away from data flow diagrams.]
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:28 PM, andrew barry <jagguy999@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I prefer to just teach an IT subject which is just programming and some
>>>>> programming design eg psuedo code.
>>>>
>>>> I agree. Students should learn how to walk before learning how to
>>>> run, i.e. they should be competent with "programming in-the-small"
>>>> before they spend much time on "programming in-the-large" (incl SDLC).
>>>>
>>>>> Including so much theory doesn't get any student excited about learning
>>>>> IT
>>>>> at Uni. After all we are trying to promote IT beyond yr12 are we not?
>>>>> Are
>>>>> we
>>>>> not trying to get more people to do it?
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Adrian that rigour is important, and this cuts across
>>>> analysis, design, implementation, documentation, etc. The SDLC is one
>>>> source of theory but I question its suitability at this level. It's
>>>> intended for software engineering projects where you have to manage
>>>> whole teams of developers, client relationships, project deliverables,
>>>> etc. When students aren't already experienced at small-scale
>>>> programming the emphasis often falls on a rather heavy document
>>>> process, which has to be one of the least exciting aspects of software
>>>> development.
>>>>
>>>> Another issue I have with the emphasis on SDLC as a major source of
>>>> theoretical content is that it focusses too much on the software
>>>> development process. Of course that's entirely appropriate given the
>>>> title of the subject, but there's some other areas of computing theory
>>>> that would be useful and accessible at this level, including
>>>> algorithmic problem solving and the limits of computing. Here's a
>>>> couple of introductory books that cover these topics in a
>>>> non-mathematical yet rigorous and intellectually stimulating way:
>>>>
>>>> Algorithmics: The Spirit of Computing (3rd Ed, David Harel, Addison
>>>> Wesley, 2004)
>>>>
>>>> Computers Ltd: What They Really Can't Do (David Harel, Oxford
>>>> University Press, 2000)
>>>>
>>>> -Steven Bird
>>>> http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>>> Authority
>>>> and
>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mark Kelly
>> Manager - Information Systems
>> McKinnon Secondary College
>> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
>> School Phone +613 8520 9000
>> School Fax +613 95789253
>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>
>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>
>> A conclusion is the place where you got sick of thinking.
>> If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sofdev mailing list
>> sofdev@edulists.com.au
>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>>
>>
>> End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>> **************************************
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au> IT Software
>> Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>> <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html > -
>> Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>> http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au> - VITTA Victorian
>> Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG.
>> Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1375 - Release Date: 12/04/2008 11:32 AM
>
> --
> Mark Kelly
> Manager - Information Systems
> McKinnon Secondary College
> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>
> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>
> Only those who swim against the current know the current is there.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:04:52 +1000
> From: "Meadows, Roslyn M" <Meadows.Roslyn.M@edumail.vic.gov.au>
> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
> <sofdev@edulists.com.au>
> Message-ID:
> <93564D1B69FCEC47BB2D847F7B0888DA0187937C@EDUSM03.education.vic.gov.au>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> sofdev mailing list
> sofdev@edulists.com.au
> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>
>
> End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
> **************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au> IT Software
> Development Mailing List kindly supported by
> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
> <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html > -
> Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
> http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au> - VITTA Victorian
> Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
--
Mark Kelly
Manager - Information Systems
McKinnon Secondary College
McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
School Phone +613 8520 9000
School Fax +613 95789253
kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
A conclusion is the place where you got sick of thinking.
If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:55:55 +1000
From: "Christophersen, Paula P"
<christophersen.paula.p@edumail.vic.gov.au>
Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary
links (MarkKelly)
To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
<sofdev@edulists.com.au>
Message-ID:
<262D8BF8834D4946BA29CC0536021892A33F41@educm02.education.vic.gov.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dear colleagues
As Mark K has correctly stated, the review of the current VCE study
design will commence later this year. As always, the study design is
reviewed and developed by a panel comprising teachers from all sectors,
academics and industry representatives. All teachers have the
opportunity to be considered for this panel through an expression of
interest (forms will be in the VCAA Bulletin later in term 3).
Once a draft study design is developed it is made publicly available for
feedback. So, if you are not on the panel, you have every opportunity to
contribute your thoughts on the draft proposal. This invitation is also
extended to organisations such as subject associations and peak bodies
associated with the IT industry. The review panel takes this feedback
seriously, and it must report to an internal VCAA committee on how this
feedback has been considered.
If you have any concerns regarding matters relating to the VCE IT, I
would urge you to re-read the study design, including the Advice to
teachers, the Assessment Handbook, the School-assessed coursework
reports, the Assessors' reports for the examinations and the VCAA CD,
Implementing VCE IT. Of course you also have this rich listserv and you
can always contact me.
Regards
Paula
Paula Christophersen
ICT Curriculum Manager
VCAA
41 St Andrews Place
EAST MELBOURNE 3002
(03) 9651 4378
-----Original Message-----
From: sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au
[mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
Sent: Monday, 21 April 2008 12:37 PM
To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
(MarkKelly)
Hi Russell. I don't think the situation is as grim as you fear. I'm
just taking advantage of an potentially-imminent study design review to
deconstruct the beast, study its entrails and ask a few questions.
Naturally, VCAA has a strong idea of what VCE SD is for: I'm just
wondering whether it has been questioned recently.
And since many tertiary people and employers have hopes & expectations
of VCE courses, it's worth review whether, or how much, different
stakeholders' desires are being satisfied.
I like taking things apart - and sometimes putting them back together
again :-)
Cheers
Mark
Russell Quinn wrote:
> Hi again,
> I am really sorry to be so negative all of the time but I
find
> this an appalling situation and I cannot stay silent.
>
> What I have been constantly hearing through the mail
> is that we have SD teachers who don't know
> what to teach and don't know why they are teaching it.
> Rest assured, it is not the teaching staff I hold to account.
>
> Consider all of the wasted time, sleep and worry by teaching
> staff who should be devoting their time and energy into how to
> teach it, preparing great materials and assessing the students work.
> Instead we have people running around in circles trying to work
> out what to do.
>
> No wonder people are not keen to write their own SAC's.
> Apparently the VCAA is quite happy with the status quo.
>
> I look forward to making a positive contribution soon.
>
> Russell Quinn
>
> Mailto: qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* sofdev-request@edulists.com.au
> *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 10:06 PM
> *To:* sofdev@edulists.com.au
> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
>
> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
> sofdev@edulists.com.au
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> sofdev-request@edulists.com.au
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> sofdev-owner@edulists.com.au
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
> 2. RE: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Meadows, Roslyn M)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:40:09 +1000
> From: Mark Kelly <kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
> <sofdev@edulists.com.au>
> Message-ID: <48088899.8050808@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Maybe the first thing to do is to decide what VCE SD is for.
>
> What is it meant to achieve?
>
> Is it meant to be a preparation for tertiary study?
> Is it meant to be a skills-based preparation for work?
> Is it meant to be a fun 12 months until uni begins?
> Is it meant to give hope to kids who are unqualified for any other VCE
> subject?
>
> I'm sure the VCAA has a good answer to this. It would be interesting
to
> hear it. Then, maybe, we can start re-defining SD - and ITA.
>
> That's assuming VCE IT NEEDS to be redefined...
>
> Which is maybe a good place for the review of the VCE IT Study Design
to
> begin...
>
> And when it does, Paula, I hope it's virtual rather than with meetings
> in the city. I'd much rather sit at home with a glass of Cab Sav and
> take time to ponder the intricacies of an argument, do research, and
> fast-forward through the boring people - rather than commute to the
big
> smoke and sit with a dozen passionate people all determined to get a
> word in edgewise within an hour so no-one's argument can get fully
> thought-out, crafted and developed in its entirety.
>
> Oooh! Saint Kilda's winning. Must go...
>
> Russell Quinn wrote:
>> The first thing would be inclined to do is throw out all of the
>> networking -
>> which is totally irrelevant to software development (except to a
small and
>> select few specialists) and replace it with actual software
development.
>>
>> I also think the obsession with the business models should be
downplayed,
>> and the scenario's broadened to something far more interesting.
After
>> all, business
>> is just one of the reasons for writing software, and not a very
>> interesting one at that.
>>
>> It appears that students are voting with their feet, and I can see
their
>> point.
>> The only way to plug the leak is to make the courses software based
and
>> interesting.
>>
>> Russell Quinn
>>
>> Mailto: qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* sofdev-request@edulists.com.au
>> *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 12:00 PM
>> *To:* sofdev@edulists.com.au
>> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>>
>> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
>> sofdev@edulists.com.au
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> sofdev-request@edulists.com.au
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> sofdev-owner@edulists.com.au
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Steven Bird)
>> 2. RE: Industry practice - tertiary links (Selina Dennis)
>> 3. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
>>
>>
>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:00:37 +1000
>> From: "Steven Bird" <sb@csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>> <sofdev@edulists.com.au>
>> Message-ID:
>> <97e4e62e0804171400q6bf98a9fq3acd059906fe980@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends <timmer@melbpc.org.au>
wrote:
>>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990
(which
>>> is not necessarily a bad thing)
>>
>> Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject. The theory
on
>> which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
>> considers that dated.
>>
>>> but it seems to me that a couple of
>>> questions need to be answered first:
>>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented
Y12 IT course?
>>> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for
teritary, work, or both?
>>
>> Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
>> preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even if
>> it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>>
>> For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a degree
>> in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
>> grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
>> programming skills. (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready
to
>> scale up.)
>>
>> -Steven
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:09:16 +1000
>> From: "Selina Dennis" <selina@dennis.net.au>
>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>> To: "'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'"
>> <sofdev@edulists.com.au>
>> Message-ID: <003801c8a0d7$aed8dd80$0c8a9880$@net.au>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> I am both a Year 12 Software Development teacher and a Computer
Science
>> graduate - I completed my CS degree late in life, circa 2005 - and as
>> someone who has worked in the IT industry since 1996, I must say that
I
>> concur with Steven Bird's view that there is a chasm between
secondary
>> school teaching of IT and tertiary teaching of IT. For students in
Year 12,
>> the key components of software development that they will "get the
most out
>> of", is the theory behind algorithms, problem solving, and also the
>> development of their basic thinking skills. I've been teaching
PHP/mySQL to
>> my students this year and while most have come into the course having
>> completed Year 10 and 11 IT, they still did not have a basic
understanding
>> of fundamental programming concepts at the start of the year.
>>
>> Perhaps this is more of a "theological" discussion on how to teach
>> programming to teenagers, but it's also relevant to note that much of
the
>> theory that is being taught in Year 12 is rarely used or developed in
either
>> tertiary study or in industry. One such example is diagrams - N-S
Diagrams,
>> DFDs, etc have long been superseded by UML, both at a university
level and
>> in industry - as an aside, I had never heard of NS diagrams until I
had to
>> teach it in IPM, and I had worked with ISO-9000 compliant
corporations
>> developing major software products.
>>
>> Similarly, the SDLC, as Steven has raised, is most useful for
large-scale
>> projects. Students will rarely experience the benefit, nor the
relevance, of
>> the SDLC, in a secondary school curriculum. More useful theory would
be a
>> more focused look at iterative design, extreme programming (or any
other
>> kind of agile software development), etc, and move away from the
excessive
>> documentation requirements that the SDLC brings to the table.
>>
>> As a teacher, I would prefer to bring in key aspects of the SDLC
without
>> having to formally teach every part of it. For example, a
concentration on
>> testing and debugging of software - this is a twofold benefit, as it
teaches
>> students to be aware of how they choose to implement functionality,
and also
>> develops their analytical and observational skills when they are
debugging
>> an error. Bringing in Use Case Diagrams instead of DFDs would be
fantastic,
>> also, as it conceptually allows a student to think through what they
are
>> providing in their system before they develop it.
>>
>> In general, however, I have to say I am currently much happier with
the core
>> content of the Software Development course than I was with the IT:
>> Applications course, but I still believe that it is, at its core,
dated and
>> at times irrelevant. In a perfect world, we would be teaching our
students
>> "good practice" programming while also preparing them for a future
path in
>> IT if they so choose - both at the tertiary level and in industry.
>>
>> </soapbox>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Selina Dennis
>> Strathmore Secondary College
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au
[mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au]
>> On Behalf Of Steven Bird
>> Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:01 AM
>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends <timmer@melbpc.org.au>
wrote:
>>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990
>> (which
>>> is not necessarily a bad thing)
>>
>> Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject. The theory
on
>> which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
>> considers that dated.
>>
>>> but it seems to me that a couple of
>>> questions need to be answered first:
>>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented
Y12 IT
>> course?
>>> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for
teritary,
>> work, or both?
>>
>> Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
>> preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even if
>> it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>>
>> For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a degree
>> in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
>> grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
>> programming skills. (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready
to
>> scale up.)
>>
>> -Steven
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
Authority
>> and
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
VITTA
>> Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:20:04 +1000
>> From: Mark Kelly <kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>> <sofdev@edulists.com.au>
>> Message-ID: <4807CD14.8060002@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Yes - and we have to position VCE against VET, which is the more
>> practical, work-oriented stream.
>>
>> Frankly, I can't see SD being directly useful in providing students
with
>> workplace skills. It's simply not deep enough in programming skills
-
>> and it could never be in the time available. And by the time the
kids
>> took the tram from school to their first job, the entire IT industry
>> would have had three technological revolutions in the meantime, so
any
>> language they learned would have been superseded.
>>
>> I see SD as giving students a taste of the mindset of software
>> development, to be developed later at uni or TAFE.
>>
>> 2.2c worth, and falling against the Yen.
>>
>> Timmer-Arends wrote:
>>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990
(which
>>> is not necessarily a bad thing) but it seems to me that a couple of
>>> questions need to be answered first:
>>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12
IT
>>> course?
>>> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for
teritary,
>>> work, or both?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Robert T-A
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Bird"
<sb@csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>>> <sofdev@edulists.com.au>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:41 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>>
>>>
>>>> [Adrian -- thanks for picking a more appropriate subject line now
that
>>>> discussion has moved away from data flow diagrams.]
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:28 PM, andrew barry <jagguy999@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I prefer to just teach an IT subject which is just programming and
some
>>>>> programming design eg psuedo code.
>>>>
>>>> I agree. Students should learn how to walk before learning how to
>>>> run, i.e. they should be competent with "programming in-the-small"
>>>> before they spend much time on "programming in-the-large" (incl
SDLC).
>>>>
>>>>> Including so much theory doesn't get any student excited about
learning
>>>>> IT
>>>>> at Uni. After all we are trying to promote IT beyond yr12 are we
not?
>>>>> Are
>>>>> we
>>>>> not trying to get more people to do it?
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Adrian that rigour is important, and this cuts across
>>>> analysis, design, implementation, documentation, etc. The SDLC is
one
>>>> source of theory but I question its suitability at this level.
It's
>>>> intended for software engineering projects where you have to manage
>>>> whole teams of developers, client relationships, project
deliverables,
>>>> etc. When students aren't already experienced at small-scale
>>>> programming the emphasis often falls on a rather heavy document
>>>> process, which has to be one of the least exciting aspects of
software
>>>> development.
>>>>
>>>> Another issue I have with the emphasis on SDLC as a major source of
>>>> theoretical content is that it focusses too much on the software
>>>> development process. Of course that's entirely appropriate given
the
>>>> title of the subject, but there's some other areas of computing
theory
>>>> that would be useful and accessible at this level, including
>>>> algorithmic problem solving and the limits of computing. Here's a
>>>> couple of introductory books that cover these topics in a
>>>> non-mathematical yet rigorous and intellectually stimulating way:
>>>>
>>>> Algorithmics: The Spirit of Computing (3rd Ed, David Harel, Addison
>>>> Wesley, 2004)
>>>>
>>>> Computers Ltd: What They Really Can't Do (David Harel, Oxford
>>>> University Press, 2000)
>>>>
>>>> -Steven Bird
>>>> http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>>> Authority
>>>> and
>>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
-
>>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mark Kelly
>> Manager - Information Systems
>> McKinnon Secondary College
>> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
>> School Phone +613 8520 9000
>> School Fax +613 95789253
>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>
>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>
>> A conclusion is the place where you got sick of thinking.
>> If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sofdev mailing list
>> sofdev@edulists.com.au
>> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>>
>>
>> End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>> **************************************
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au> IT Software
>> Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
>> <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html >
-
>> Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>> http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au> - VITTA Victorian
>> Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>
>>
>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG.
>> Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1375 - Release Date:
12/04/2008 11:32 AM
>
> --
> Mark Kelly
> Manager - Information Systems
> McKinnon Secondary College
> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>
> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>
> Only those who swim against the current know the current is there.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:04:52 +1000
> From: "Meadows, Roslyn M" <Meadows.Roslyn.M@edumail.vic.gov.au>
> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
> <sofdev@edulists.com.au>
> Message-ID:
>
<93564D1B69FCEC47BB2D847F7B0888DA0187937C@EDUSM03.education.vic.gov.au>
>
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> **************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au> IT Software
> Development Mailing List kindly supported by
> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
> <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html >
-
> Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
> http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au> - VITTA Victorian
> Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
--
Mark Kelly
Manager - Information Systems
McKinnon Secondary College
McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
School Phone +613 8520 9000
School Fax +613 95789253
kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
A conclusion is the place where you got sick of thinking.
If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?
_______________________________________________
http://www.edulists.com.au
IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
Authority and
http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
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