<HTML dir=ltr><HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV id=idOWAReplyText59677 dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Hi again,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2> I am really sorry to be so negative all of the time but I find</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>this an appalling situation and I cannot stay silent.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>What I have been constantly hearing through the mail</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>is that we have SD teachers who don't know </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>what to teach </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>and don't know why they are teaching it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Rest assured, it is not the teaching staff I hold to account.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Consider all of the wasted time, sleep and worry by teaching </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>staff who should be devoting their time and energy into how to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>teach it, preparing great materials and assessing the </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>students work.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Instead we have people running around in circles trying to work</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>out what to do.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>No wonder people are not keen to write their own SAC's.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Apparently the VCAA is quite happy with the status quo. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>I look forward to making a positive contribution soon.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV id=idSignature13764>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Russell Quinn</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mailto: <A href="mailto:qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au" target=_blank>qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au</A></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> sofdev-request@edulists.com.au<BR><B>Sent:</B> Fri 18/04/2008 10:06 PM<BR><B>To:</B> sofdev@edulists.com.au<BR><B>Subject:</B> sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><PRE style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
sofdev@edulists.com.au
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
sofdev-request@edulists.com.au
You can reach the person managing the list at
sofdev-owner@edulists.com.au
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
2. RE: Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Meadows, Roslyn M)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 21:40:09 +1000
From: Mark Kelly <kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
<sofdev@edulists.com.au>
Message-ID: <48088899.8050808@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Maybe the first thing to do is to decide what VCE SD is for.
What is it meant to achieve?
Is it meant to be a preparation for tertiary study?
Is it meant to be a skills-based preparation for work?
Is it meant to be a fun 12 months until uni begins?
Is it meant to give hope to kids who are unqualified for any other VCE
subject?
I'm sure the VCAA has a good answer to this. It would be interesting to
hear it. Then, maybe, we can start re-defining SD - and ITA.
That's assuming VCE IT NEEDS to be redefined...
Which is maybe a good place for the review of the VCE IT Study Design to
begin...
And when it does, Paula, I hope it's virtual rather than with meetings
in the city. I'd much rather sit at home with a glass of Cab Sav and
take time to ponder the intricacies of an argument, do research, and
fast-forward through the boring people - rather than commute to the big
smoke and sit with a dozen passionate people all determined to get a
word in edgewise within an hour so no-one's argument can get fully
thought-out, crafted and developed in its entirety.
Oooh! Saint Kilda's winning. Must go...
Russell Quinn wrote:
> The first thing would be inclined to do is throw out all of the
> networking -
> which is totally irrelevant to software development (except to a small and
> select few specialists) and replace it with actual software development.
>
> I also think the obsession with the business models should be downplayed,
> and the scenario's broadened to something far more interesting. After
> all, business
> is just one of the reasons for writing software, and not a very
> interesting one at that.
>
> It appears that students are voting with their feet, and I can see their
> point.
> The only way to plug the leak is to make the courses software based and
> interesting.
>
> Russell Quinn
>
> Mailto: qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au <mailto:qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* sofdev-request@edulists.com.au
> *Sent:* Fri 18/04/2008 12:00 PM
> *To:* sofdev@edulists.com.au
> *Subject:* sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
>
> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
> sofdev@edulists.com.au
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> sofdev-request@edulists.com.au
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> sofdev-owner@edulists.com.au
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Steven Bird)
> 2. RE: Industry practice - tertiary links (Selina Dennis)
> 3. Re: Industry practice - tertiary links (Mark Kelly)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:00:37 +1000
> From: "Steven Bird" <sb@csse.unimelb.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
> <sofdev@edulists.com.au>
> Message-ID:
> <97e4e62e0804171400q6bf98a9fq3acd059906fe980@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends <timmer@melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990 (which
>> is not necessarily a bad thing)
>
> Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject. The theory on
> which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
> considers that dated.
>
>> but it seems to me that a couple of
>> questions need to be answered first:
>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12 IT course?
>> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for teritary, work, or both?
>
> Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
> preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even if
> it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>
> For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a degree
> in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
> grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
> programming skills. (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready to
> scale up.)
>
> -Steven
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:09:16 +1000
> From: "Selina Dennis" <selina@dennis.net.au>
> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
> To: "'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'"
> <sofdev@edulists.com.au>
> Message-ID: <003801c8a0d7$aed8dd80$0c8a9880$@net.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I am both a Year 12 Software Development teacher and a Computer Science
> graduate - I completed my CS degree late in life, circa 2005 - and as
> someone who has worked in the IT industry since 1996, I must say that I
> concur with Steven Bird's view that there is a chasm between secondary
> school teaching of IT and tertiary teaching of IT. For students in Year 12,
> the key components of software development that they will "get the most out
> of", is the theory behind algorithms, problem solving, and also the
> development of their basic thinking skills. I've been teaching PHP/mySQL to
> my students this year and while most have come into the course having
> completed Year 10 and 11 IT, they still did not have a basic understanding
> of fundamental programming concepts at the start of the year.
>
> Perhaps this is more of a "theological" discussion on how to teach
> programming to teenagers, but it's also relevant to note that much of the
> theory that is being taught in Year 12 is rarely used or developed in either
> tertiary study or in industry. One such example is diagrams - N-S Diagrams,
> DFDs, etc have long been superseded by UML, both at a university level and
> in industry - as an aside, I had never heard of NS diagrams until I had to
> teach it in IPM, and I had worked with ISO-9000 compliant corporations
> developing major software products.
>
> Similarly, the SDLC, as Steven has raised, is most useful for large-scale
> projects. Students will rarely experience the benefit, nor the relevance, of
> the SDLC, in a secondary school curriculum. More useful theory would be a
> more focused look at iterative design, extreme programming (or any other
> kind of agile software development), etc, and move away from the excessive
> documentation requirements that the SDLC brings to the table.
>
> As a teacher, I would prefer to bring in key aspects of the SDLC without
> having to formally teach every part of it. For example, a concentration on
> testing and debugging of software - this is a twofold benefit, as it teaches
> students to be aware of how they choose to implement functionality, and also
> develops their analytical and observational skills when they are debugging
> an error. Bringing in Use Case Diagrams instead of DFDs would be fantastic,
> also, as it conceptually allows a student to think through what they are
> providing in their system before they develop it.
>
> In general, however, I have to say I am currently much happier with the core
> content of the Software Development course than I was with the IT:
> Applications course, but I still believe that it is, at its core, dated and
> at times irrelevant. In a perfect world, we would be teaching our students
> "good practice" programming while also preparing them for a future path in
> IT if they so choose - both at the tertiary level and in industry.
>
> </soapbox>
>
> Regards,
>
> Selina Dennis
> Strathmore Secondary College
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au [mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au]
> On Behalf Of Steven Bird
> Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 7:01 AM
> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>
> On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Timmer-Arends <timmer@melbpc.org.au> wrote:
>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990
> (which
>> is not necessarily a bad thing)
>
> Well, CS an obvious source of theory for an IT subject. The theory on
> which VCE Physics and Chemistry is based is older still, but no-one
> considers that dated.
>
>> but it seems to me that a couple of
>> questions need to be answered first:
>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12 IT
> course?
>> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for teritary,
> work, or both?
>
> Another conceivable answer to q2 is that it is foundational study,
> preparing students for whatever they choose to do in future, even if
> it involves no formal IT study or employment.
>
> For the students continuing from VCE Software Development to a degree
> in Software Engineering, we would prefer students to have a solid
> grounding in algorithmic problem solving and the associated
> programming skills. (The SDLC follows naturally once they're ready to
> scale up.)
>
> -Steven
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.edulists.com.au
> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority
> and
> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html - VITTA
> Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 08:20:04 +1000
> From: Mark Kelly <kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
> <sofdev@edulists.com.au>
> Message-ID: <4807CD14.8060002@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Yes - and we have to position VCE against VET, which is the more
> practical, work-oriented stream.
>
> Frankly, I can't see SD being directly useful in providing students with
> workplace skills. It's simply not deep enough in programming skills -
> and it could never be in the time available. And by the time the kids
> took the tram from school to their first job, the entire IT industry
> would have had three technological revolutions in the meantime, so any
> language they learned would have been superseded.
>
> I see SD as giving students a taste of the mindset of software
> development, to be developed later at uni or TAFE.
>
> 2.2c worth, and falling against the Yen.
>
> Timmer-Arends wrote:
>> I have to say that this discussion is heading to Comp Sci circa 1990 (which
>> is not necessarily a bad thing) but it seems to me that a couple of
>> questions need to be answered first:
>> 1. what do we want students to get out of a technically-oriented Y12 IT
>> course?
>> 2. is the course primarily intended to prepare students for teritary,
>> work, or both?
>>
>> Regards
>> Robert T-A
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Bird" <sb@csse.unimelb.edu.au>
>> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
>> <sofdev@edulists.com.au>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:41 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Industry practice - tertiary links
>>
>>
>>> [Adrian -- thanks for picking a more appropriate subject line now that
>>> discussion has moved away from data flow diagrams.]
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:28 PM, andrew barry <jagguy999@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> I prefer to just teach an IT subject which is just programming and some
>>>> programming design eg psuedo code.
>>>
>>> I agree. Students should learn how to walk before learning how to
>>> run, i.e. they should be competent with "programming in-the-small"
>>> before they spend much time on "programming in-the-large" (incl SDLC).
>>>
>>>> Including so much theory doesn't get any student excited about learning
>>>> IT
>>>> at Uni. After all we are trying to promote IT beyond yr12 are we not?
>>>> Are
>>>> we
>>>> not trying to get more people to do it?
>>>
>>> I agree with Adrian that rigour is important, and this cuts across
>>> analysis, design, implementation, documentation, etc. The SDLC is one
>>> source of theory but I question its suitability at this level. It's
>>> intended for software engineering projects where you have to manage
>>> whole teams of developers, client relationships, project deliverables,
>>> etc. When students aren't already experienced at small-scale
>>> programming the emphasis often falls on a rather heavy document
>>> process, which has to be one of the least exciting aspects of software
>>> development.
>>>
>>> Another issue I have with the emphasis on SDLC as a major source of
>>> theoretical content is that it focusses too much on the software
>>> development process. Of course that's entirely appropriate given the
>>> title of the subject, but there's some other areas of computing theory
>>> that would be useful and accessible at this level, including
>>> algorithmic problem solving and the limits of computing. Here's a
>>> couple of introductory books that cover these topics in a
>>> non-mathematical yet rigorous and intellectually stimulating way:
>>>
>>> Algorithmics: The Spirit of Computing (3rd Ed, David Harel, Addison
>>> Wesley, 2004)
>>>
>>> Computers Ltd: What They Really Can't Do (David Harel, Oxford
>>> University Press, 2000)
>>>
>>> -Steven Bird
>>> http://www.csse.unimelb.edu.au/~sb/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
>>> Authority
>>> and
>>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
>>> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>
>
> --
> Mark Kelly
> Manager - Information Systems
> McKinnon Secondary College
> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
> School Phone +613 8520 9000
> School Fax +613 95789253
> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>
> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>
> A conclusion is the place where you got sick of thinking.
> If you Declare War - is it integer or boolean?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> sofdev mailing list
> sofdev@edulists.com.au
> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
>
>
> End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24
> **************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au> IT Software
> Development Mailing List kindly supported by
> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html
> <http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html > -
> Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
> http://www.vitta.org.au <http://www.vitta.org.au> - VITTA Victorian
> Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.13/1375 - Release Date: 12/04/2008 11:32 AM
--
Mark Kelly
Manager - Information Systems
McKinnon Secondary College
kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
Only those who swim against the current know the current is there.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:04:52 +1000
From: "Meadows, Roslyn M" <Meadows.Roslyn.M@edumail.vic.gov.au>
Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] Re: Industry practice - tertiary links
To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
<sofdev@edulists.com.au>
Message-ID:
<93564D1B69FCEC47BB2D847F7B0888DA0187937C@EDUSM03.education.vic.gov.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 1381 bytes
Desc: image001.jpg
Url : http://www.edulists.com.au/pipermail/sofdev/attachments/20080418/0b541aa2/attachment.jpe
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: not available
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 1316 bytes
Desc: image002.jpg
Url : http://www.edulists.com.au/pipermail/sofdev/attachments/20080418/0b541aa2/attachment-0001.jpe
------------------------------
_______________________________________________
sofdev mailing list
sofdev@edulists.com.au
http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
End of sofdev Digest, Vol 38, Issue 26
**************************************
</PRE></DIV></BODY></HTML>