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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Have never taught SD, but way back did teach year 12
CS.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Please let us realise that at year 12 all these concepts
are only to be understood at a fairly low level. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>So don't panic if you are not a "fully on top of it all"
teacher.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>You don't need the sort of "I know it all" mentality
-</FONT></DIV>
<UL>
<LI><FONT face=Arial>but then neither do any teachers</FONT></LI>
<LI><FONT face=Arial>we are not expert sources of facts/knowledge</FONT></LI>
<LI><FONT face=Arial>we are facilitators of learning. Sometimes our kids know
more than we do <FONT size=5>:-(</FONT> So what should we be doing in
response? We should be saying "Great!". Hey know it and they can help us all
<FONT size=4>:-)</FONT></FONT></LI>
<LI><FONT face=Arial>we need to know that and the kids also need to know
that.</FONT></LI></UL>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Back to computers:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I did not even meet computers until 1971 in PNG. (Sorry
but were you even born then?)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Computers in schools? 1977+. With Tandy TSR 2 and
Apples</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>So most of our "old" IT teachers are self trained and have
a wealth of knowledge and experience but no formal qualifications.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Glad to hear that you, as a relatively new graduate who
has worked in computing for some years, still have problems with the content of
the course. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Or am I only talking about myself as a lonely
oldie?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Robert Hind (Semi-retired)<BR>Ex Traralgon and
Ashwood<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=QN@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au href="mailto:QN@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au">Russell
Quinn</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=sofdev@edulists.com.au
href="mailto:sofdev@edulists.com.au">sofdev@edulists.com.au</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 06, 2008 4:07
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Year 12 SofDev] SD SACs and
Course Comments</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV id=idOWAReplyText10784 dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Hi all, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2> I have been
monitoring the email regarding the SAC's and then</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>the expansion to the course
material.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have a grad dip in computing and
was employed as an analyst/programmer for</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>over 10 years at The University of
Melbourne (plus contract work</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>prior to that), and I have never had to
contend with network issues.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>They are dealt with by specialists.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>The problem I have with developing
</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>my own SACs is the time required to do a good
job. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Who has the time </FONT><FONT face=Arial
size=2>between meetings, PD, curriculum, marking, developing new and
hopefully</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>interesting work etc. I
wonder how many teaching SD are trained analysts, and even with
training,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>analysis can be a very difficult
task. I often have issues with solutions I have seen to
DFD's.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Imagine how threatening some of this work
must be for the students - especially those who</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>have not done Units 1 &
2.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>I note that one of the publishers is
not offering a book this year due to falling numbers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>I know that many of the students hate the
theory and just want to log on and create.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>For me as an analyst/programmer and
teacher, I find the course boring</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>and much of the work tedious, and I am
not sure I would put it into a secondary course.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>The name alone is misleading, and I think
IS was a much more accurate description</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>of the content. I believe the
term SD is misleading.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Lastly I find the VCAA course description
ridiculous. Last year I spent a week teaching</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>file structures, index files etc not
knowing to what depth it will be needed for the exam.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>In the end I decided I had wasted the
students time. How about a statement of what is in </FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>the course?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV id=idSignature43647>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Russell Quinn</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mailto: <A href="mailto:qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au"
target=_blank>qn@boxhillhs.vic.edu.au</A></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B>
sofdev-request@edulists.com.au<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thu 6/03/2008 3:28
PM<BR><B>To:</B> sofdev@edulists.com.au<BR><B>Subject:</B> sofdev Digest, Vol
37, Issue 22<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><PRE style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
sofdev@edulists.com.au
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
sofdev-request@edulists.com.au
You can reach the person managing the list at
sofdev-owner@edulists.com.au
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Anyone here teach Chathura Jayasekara? (Mark Kelly)
2. Re: RE: sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17 (Kevork Krozian)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 15:23:17 +1100
From: Mark Kelly <kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
Subject: [Year 12 SofDev] Anyone here teach Chathura Jayasekara?
To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
<sofdev@edulists.com.au>
Message-ID: <47CF71B5.8000904@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Got an email asking for help with "last year's" SD SAC from Chathura
Jayasekara. A SAC was attached.
A bit sus, I thought, so I have not helped yet.
Anyone here recognise the kiddy's name?
Cheers
Mark
--
Mark Kelly
Manager - Information Systems
McKinnon Secondary College
McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
School Phone +613 8520 9000
School Fax +613 95789253
kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
You'll know when we are officially a civilised race: our schools have
all the money they need and the Air Force has to run a chook raffle to
buy a new bomber.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 15:26:47 +1100 (EST)
From: "Kevork Krozian" <kevork@edulists.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17
To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
<sofdev@edulists.com.au>
Message-ID:
<48620.122.107.211.184.1204777607.squirrel@www.edulists.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
Hi Theresa,
Thanks for your honesty in stating it is ok to admit not to know the
technical stuff and this from someone with an info systems degree. Do all
our SD teachers have a degree in the area ?
And if you are not comfortable with the technical stuff - do I understand
VPN, client server, WAN technologies, and more here? -- then how many
more without quals feel even less comfortable ?
I concur with your sentiments about the breaking down of the study design
with little specificity being of little value. Yes, the VITTA CD has gone
a long way to addressing the lack of specific sample work but there have
been some quality assurance issues related to this.
Futhermore, there is no point in everyone doing the same VITTA sample
SAC from the CD. It is just repeating the problem using a different
source.
Keep well
Kevork Krozian
Mailing List Administrator
kevork@edulists.com.au
www.edulists.com.au
> In regards to the present topic, I have a degree in Information systems
> and am confident with teaching the theory of Systems analysis and
> design, but feel nervous with some of the technical stuff because it has
> changed so much in the past five years since I last taught IS so I
> signed up to the recent VITTA workshops. I was dissapointed with the
> workshops, which basically did no more than break down the Study design,
> something I can do myself. I feel that some more specific PD for
> networking, modelling and even programming - like building programs for
> portable devices would really be more helpful.
>
> Regards
>
> Theresa Gate
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au
> [mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of
> sofdev-request@edulists.com.au
> Sent: Thursday, 6 March 2008 11:42 AM
> To: sofdev@edulists.com.au
> Subject: sofdev Digest, Vol 37, Issue 17
>
> Send sofdev mailing list submissions to
> sofdev@edulists.com.au
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://www.edulists.com.au/mailman/listinfo/sofdev
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> sofdev-request@edulists.com.au
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> sofdev-owner@edulists.com.au
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
> "Re: Contents of sofdev digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Why aren't teachers able to write their own material ?
> (Kevork Krozian)
> 2. Re: Copyright / authorship / solutions / ?? (Mark Kelly)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 11:32:07 +1100
> From: "Kevork Krozian" <Kroset@novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Why aren't teachers able to write their
> own material ?
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
> <sofdev@edulists.com.au>
> Message-ID: <47CFD635.EE3E.0095.0@novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15
>
> Hi Adrian and Mark,
>
> Very good points but more broadly a symptom of a wider problem we
> keep avoiding.
> If teachers are not confident about assessing a topic ( to say nothing
> about teaching it effectively ) then we need to address this issue.
> I know we are all overworked but if we are teaching a class we need to
> be fair to the students and ourselves.
>
> In reality if you are not an active network manager or Cisco
> instructor, you would struggle to understand networks and maybe not know
> a bus network even if you were run over by one.
>
> I know VITTA and the VCAA almost do miracles ( not least in their
> active and meaningful support of Edulists and PD ) but why are teachers
> unable to write their own SACs with confidence and conviction and with
> solutions they can show others ?
>
> I would say because the training and the need for new and current
> training has not kept up with the demands of the course(s). What do we
> do about this ?
>
> I think we need to stop patching these problems with band aids and need
> to go up the tree (DEECD, the new Rudd govt. initiative or wherever else
> we need to go) where there is decent and proper funding to deliver
> updated courses and training rather than doing it on the cheap.
>
> I don't want to drag down decent hardworking teachers doing the best
> they can with what little they have - I want to lift them .
>
>
> Just my thoughts
>
>
> Kevork
>
>
>>>> Mark Kelly <kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au> 6/03/2008 8:28 am >>>
> Good points there, Adrian. I have a gut feeling that people feel rather
>
> more intimidated writing SD outcomes than they do ITA. It's that much
>
> more complex.
>
> In a similar vein, I've just finished writing a commercial practice SD
>
> exam and it took much more thinking than the equivalent ITA exam.
>
> Adrian Janson wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a potentially tricky issue - and as one who often posts his
> SAC
>> and theory materials to the lists - one that I must confess is a bit
> of
>> a concern.
>>
>>
>>
>> Speaking personally, when I post my materials to the lists - I would
>
>> like to think that those who are making use of them do so in the
> spirit
>> in which they have been posted - giving credit where it is due and
> not
>> altering things with a view to reposting them. I think the part of
> this
>> that is the most worrying is that some material did find its way back
> to
>> me which I had originally authored and posted to the lists - but with
>
>> another teachers name on it.
>>
>>
>>
>> It may well just need to be the case that when we post materials to
> the
>> lists, we need to state (in the document as well as in the attached
>> email), that the materials are free to use but may not be adapted or
>
>> changed in any way without the permission of the author*. As I put
> the
>> finishing touches on my 2008 SAC1 - I may well do this before I post
> it
>> to the list? I would be interested to know what others think of
> this?
>>
>>
>>
>> On another note - something which has been bothering me a great
> deal.
>>
>>
>>
>> After the review process took place last year and schools had the
> SACs
>> and Assessments checked by VCAA - it became apparent that a large
> number
>> of the sampled schools had used my SACs (more than half). Of the
>> remaining schools, many had used the VITTA SACs. After posting the
> SACs
>> to the lists, I had many requests for solutions which I tried to
> provide
>> as best I could. I don*t mind doing this - however, I think this
> seems
>> to suggest that there are few SD teachers creating their own original
>
>> materials and/or solutions.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now - I don*t mind doing the work and posting it for everyone to
> use. I
>> think doing this is especially valuable to those starting out with
> the
>> SD course or with programming in general. However, if you are
> familiar
>> with the SD course - I think that you could be doing your own
> students a
>> disservice by not writing your own materials and solutions (and hence
>
>> becoming more familiar with the assessment criteria and the structure
> of
>> the course). In such a circumstance, I think it would be more
>> appropriate for you to use my SAC materials (or any others that are
>> posted) for practice SAC materials and / or inspiration for your own.
>
>> There is no way I can prevent teachers from simply using my own (or
>> others) work as a method of minimising their own workload - however,
> I
>> would implore those engaging in this practice to think of the bigger
>
>> picture.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Adrian Janson
>>
>> VITTA President
>>
>> Director of ICT, Melbourne High School
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au
>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Poultney,
> Gordon A
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 5 March 2008 12:13 PM
>> *To:* Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>
>>
>>
>> We are talking about a 2 page SAC here, not the latest from Neal
>> Stephenson...
>>
>> Feel free to do what you want with Shagadelic - just don't put my
> name
>> on it if you change it.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you believe in copyright/credit , then Ross' simple attribution
>> scheme looks good.
>>
>>
>>
>> gordon
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------
>>
>> Gordon Poultney
>>
>> Horsham College
>>
>>
>>
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au on behalf of Stephen Digby
>> *Sent:* Wed 5/3/08 11:31
>> *To:* 'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'
>> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>
>> What about a simpler attribution such as
>>
>> Freds Carpet House v6 "Based on SAC by Mark Kelly 2007. Alterations
> by
>> Stephen Digby 2008, Gordon Poultney 2008"
>>
>> Just as the ridiculous copyright laws reduce the likelihood of
> attribution
>> (less likely to get caught for copyright violation if you remove all
> info
>> re. source).
>>
>> A overly complex attribution process may reduce the likelihood of
> sharing.
>>
>> As it is, most resources that I have are not able to be shared
> because of
>> copyright (i.e. they are not mine to share)
>>
>> Lets develop a 'creative common' approach to as much materials as
>> possible....
>>
>> ====================================================
>> Stephen Digby, Learning Technology Manager
>> mailto: digby.stephen.p@edumail.vic.gov.au
>> Cheltenham Secondary College www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au
>> Ph: 613 955 55 955 Fx: 9555 8617 Mb: 0431-701-028
>> ====================================================
>>
>> I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. Winston
>> Churchill
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au
> [mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au]
>> On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2008 10:15 AM
>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List; Year 12 IT
>> Applications Teachers' Mailing List; Year 11 Information Technology
>> Teachers' Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>
>> (I've X-posted to the ITA and year 11 IT lists. Apols in advance.)
>>
>> I see an interesting and potentially worrying point developing here.
>>
>> If we adapt other people's tasks, I think we are obliged to retain
> the
>> version information contained in the task and note ourselves as
> modifiers
>> and let that info stay with the document in its further travels.
>>
>> I know I would be horrified if a task I created was later 'improved'
> by some
>> anonymous person, thereby damaging it or (even worse) rendering it a
>> violation of VCAA rules - with my name still proudly stuck on it as
> if I
>> were solely responsible for its current condition!
>>
>> When we distribute 'adapted' tasks, I recommend that we:
>>
>> 1. Of course, retain the original author's identity and document
> version
>> number, if they are in the document. Give the poor authors credit
> for their
>> labours!
>>
>> 2. Add yourself to the credits as a 'modifier'.
>>
>> 3. Maybe even summarise your changes (and reasons?) in an addendum at
> the
>> end of the document. This addendum can be removed for printing
> purposes by
>> people who use it later, but it otherwise travels with the document
> as it
>> morphs through the ether.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> Poultney, Gordon A wrote:
>>> i made up the original 'Shagadelic' which sounds like it has
> morphed
>> into something else. There is only 1 network diagram in the original
> - for
>> the new system .there is/was a marking scheme and complete network
> diagram
>> for the teacher too.
>>> cheers Gordon
>>>
>>> ----------------
>>> Gordon Poultney
>>> Horsham College
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> From: sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au on behalf of Maggie Iaquinto
>>> Sent: Wed 5/3/08 9:14
>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ross
>>>
>>> Ross
>>>
>>> If you were using this practice SAC as the actual one, it would be
>>> difficult to separate the marks for Task 1 (systems analysis and
>>> design
>>> - mistakenly called Task 2 here) from Task 2 (network diagram).
> You
>>> are required to report the marks for the tasks clearly and
> discretely.
>>>
>>> Task 1 is 40 marks and Task 2 is 10 marks -- based on 50 for the
>>> Outcome.
>>> In the assessment sheet nearly 25 marks of the 50 are devoted to
> the
>>> network diagram. This makes it tough to report accurately to VCAA
> just
>>> what your students have received, in terms of the balance of
> 40/10.
>>>
>>> Task 2 (network diagram) must be for the proposed new system and
> this
>>> document requires the student to diagram the current and the new.
>>> Sure, you can do that but it isn't necessary.
>>>
>>> I notice also that there are marks given to presentation of the
> report.
>>> IMHO I would put those marks into a more finely-grained assessment
> of
>>> all the other Key Skills required in this Outcome.
>>>
>>> Just an opinion.
>>>
>>> Maggie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au
>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
>>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2008 8:36 AM
>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>
>>> If the task extended across the holidays, make sure the remaining
> part
>>> is not given to them beforehand so they can't pre-produce stuff.
>>>
>>> Claudia Graham wrote:
>>> > Hi Ross,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Re the practice SAC not sure who's that is so can't help there
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Regarding the use of the internet not something I have done or
> would
>>> do,
>>> > for me it would be too hard to 'patrol'. But as long as all
> students
>>> > have the same conditions it doesn't matter (mind you I don't have
> a
>>> > study design or assessment hand book beside me to check re
>>> > conditions)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Same for the time frame, I assume you mean a lesson or two prior
> to
>>> the
>>> > holidays and then some after (or similar), not something I would
> do
>>> just
>>> > for authentication purposes. I would do it all in a few lessons;
> I
>>> don't
>>> > even like weekends between assessment lessons if I can help it.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Claudia Graham
>>> >
>>> > Overnewton College
>>> >
>>> > Keilor
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> > *From:* sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au
>>> > [mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Ogilvie,
> Ross
>>> > A
>>> > *Sent:* 4 March 2008 7:50 PM
>>> > *To:* sofdev@edulists.com.au
>>> > *Subject:* Ross from Sunbury College
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Hi all,
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > In regard to SD I have a couple of questions.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 1. I have given my class a **Practice SAC** called **Shagadelic
>>> > Carpets** (refer to attachment) (hope the author is OK with
> this).
>>> > My
>>>
>>> > question is....does anyone have the solutions so I can check if I
> am
>>> on
>>> > the right track.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > 2. When I give my students the actual SAC:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > i. Can/should they access the internet.
>>> >
>>> > ii. Would there be a problem (in Vic) if the SAC extended
> through
>>> the
>>> > Term One holiday period into Term Two.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Kindest Regards
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > **Ross Ogilvie **
>>> >
>>> > **LSF ICT Leader **
>>> >
>>> > **Sunbury**** College**
>>> >
>>> > **30 Racecourse Rd****, Sunbury 3429**
>>> >
>>> > **Ph (W) 9744 1066 **
>>> >
>>> > ** (H) 54272843**
>>> >
>>> > **Bookmarks: http://del.icio.us/Ross1956**
>>> >
>>> > **Wiki: http://ross1956.wikispaces.com/**
>>> > --
>>> > Mark Kelly
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mark Kelly
>>
>> --
>> Mark Kelly
>
> --
> Mark Kelly
> Manager - Information Systems
> McKinnon Secondary College
> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia Direct line / Voicemail:
> 8520 9085 School Phone +613 8520 9000 School Fax +613 95789253 kel AT
> mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>
> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au IT Lecture notes:
> http://vceit.com
> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>
> You'll know when we are officially a civilised race: our schools have
> all the money they need and the Air Force has to run a chook raffle to
>
> buy a new bomber.
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://www.edulists.com.au
> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
> Authority and
> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 11:36:38 +1100
> From: Mark Kelly <kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Copyright / authorship / solutions / ??
> To: "Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List"
> <sofdev@edulists.com.au>
> Message-ID: <47CF3C96.1000409@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Ah - I didn't notice you were chasing SD stuff... I assumed it was ITA.
> I don't know if there are SD QATs. Your best bet is to check the
> VITTA resources. There are SD SACs there.
>
> I will attach the U3 outcomes I used last year, which were approved by
> VCAA during their audit of my material.
>
>
> Fatima Nazar wrote:
>> Hello Mark,
>>
>> I have looked into QATs and even sent them an email (no reply as yet)
> about SD - I am brand new to SD and would LOVE to even buy some SACs
> with suggested solutions as I would then know what can be an excellent
> answer :) so let me know if you have some up your sleeve please
>>
>> Regards
>> Fatima
>> (have 2 SD classes)
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au on behalf of Mark Kelly
>> Sent: Thu 3/6/2008 8:28 AM
>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] Copyright / authorship / solutions / ??
>>
>>
>>
>> Good points there, Adrian. I have a gut feeling that people feel
> rather
>> more intimidated writing SD outcomes than they do ITA. It's that much
>> more complex.
>>
>> In a similar vein, I've just finished writing a commercial practice SD
>> exam and it took much more thinking than the equivalent ITA exam.
>>
>> Adrian Janson wrote:
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This is a potentially tricky issue - and as one who often posts his
> SAC
>>> and theory materials to the lists - one that I must confess is a bit
> of
>>> a concern.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Speaking personally, when I post my materials to the lists - I would
>>> like to think that those who are making use of them do so in the
> spirit
>>> in which they have been posted - giving credit where it is due and
> not
>>> altering things with a view to reposting them. I think the part of
> this
>>> that is the most worrying is that some material did find its way back
> to
>>> me which I had originally authored and posted to the lists - but with
>>> another teachers name on it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It may well just need to be the case that when we post materials to
> the
>>> lists, we need to state (in the document as well as in the attached
>>> email), that the materials are free to use but may not be adapted or
>>> changed in any way without the permission of the author.... As I put
> the
>>> finishing touches on my 2008 SAC1 - I may well do this before I post
> it
>>> to the list? I would be interested to know what others think of
> this?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On another note - something which has been bothering me a great deal.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> After the review process took place last year and schools had the
> SACs
>>> and Assessments checked by VCAA - it became apparent that a large
> number
>>> of the sampled schools had used my SACs (more than half). Of the
>>> remaining schools, many had used the VITTA SACs. After posting the
> SACs
>>> to the lists, I had many requests for solutions which I tried to
> provide
>>> as best I could. I don't mind doing this - however, I think this
> seems
>>> to suggest that there are few SD teachers creating their own original
>>> materials and/or solutions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Now - I don't mind doing the work and posting it for everyone to use.
> I
>>> think doing this is especially valuable to those starting out with
> the
>>> SD course or with programming in general. However, if you are
> familiar
>>> with the SD course - I think that you could be doing your own
> students a
>>> disservice by not writing your own materials and solutions (and hence
>>> becoming more familiar with the assessment criteria and the structure
> of
>>> the course). In such a circumstance, I think it would be more
>>> appropriate for you to use my SAC materials (or any others that are
>>> posted) for practice SAC materials and / or inspiration for your own.
>
>>> There is no way I can prevent teachers from simply using my own (or
>>> others) work as a method of minimising their own workload - however,
> I
>>> would implore those engaging in this practice to think of the bigger
>>> picture.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Adrian Janson
>>>
>>> VITTA President
>>>
>>> Director of ICT, Melbourne High School
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au
>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Poultney,
> Gordon A
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, 5 March 2008 12:13 PM
>>> *To:* Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We are talking about a 2 page SAC here, not the latest from Neal
>>> Stephenson...
>>>
>>> Feel free to do what you want with Shagadelic - just don't put my
> name
>>> on it if you change it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you believe in copyright/credit , then Ross' simple attribution
>>> scheme looks good.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> gordon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------
>>>
>>> Gordon Poultney
>>>
>>> Horsham College
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au on behalf of Stephen Digby
>>> *Sent:* Wed 5/3/08 11:31
>>> *To:* 'Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List'
>>> *Subject:* RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>
>>> What about a simpler attribution such as
>>>
>>> Freds Carpet House v6 "Based on SAC by Mark Kelly 2007. Alterations
> by
>>> Stephen Digby 2008, Gordon Poultney 2008"
>>>
>>> Just as the ridiculous copyright laws reduce the likelihood of
> attribution
>>> (less likely to get caught for copyright violation if you remove all
> info
>>> re. source).
>>>
>>> A overly complex attribution process may reduce the likelihood of
> sharing.
>>>
>>> As it is, most resources that I have are not able to be shared
> because of
>>> copyright (i.e. they are not mine to share)
>>>
>>> Lets develop a 'creative common' approach to as much materials as
>>> possible....
>>>
>>> ====================================================
>>> Stephen Digby, Learning Technology Manager
>>> mailto: digby.stephen.p@edumail.vic.gov.au
>>> Cheltenham Secondary College www.cheltsec.vic.edu.au
>>> Ph: 613 955 55 955 Fx: 9555 8617 Mb: 0431-701-028
>>> ====================================================
>>>
>>> I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat. Winston
>>> Churchill
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au
> [mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au]
>>> On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
>>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2008 10:15 AM
>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List; Year 12 IT
>>> Applications Teachers' Mailing List; Year 11 Information Technology
>>> Teachers' Mailing List
>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>
>>> (I've X-posted to the ITA and year 11 IT lists. Apols in advance.)
>>>
>>> I see an interesting and potentially worrying point developing here.
>>>
>>> If we adapt other people's tasks, I think we are obliged to retain
> the
>>> version information contained in the task and note ourselves as
> modifiers
>>> and let that info stay with the document in its further travels.
>>>
>>> I know I would be horrified if a task I created was later 'improved'
> by some
>>> anonymous person, thereby damaging it or (even worse) rendering it a
>>> violation of VCAA rules - with my name still proudly stuck on it as
> if I
>>> were solely responsible for its current condition!
>>>
>>> When we distribute 'adapted' tasks, I recommend that we:
>>>
>>> 1. Of course, retain the original author's identity and document
> version
>>> number, if they are in the document. Give the poor authors credit
> for their
>>> labours!
>>>
>>> 2. Add yourself to the credits as a 'modifier'.
>>>
>>> 3. Maybe even summarise your changes (and reasons?) in an addendum at
> the
>>> end of the document. This addendum can be removed for printing
> purposes by
>>> people who use it later, but it otherwise travels with the document
> as it
>>> morphs through the ether.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> Poultney, Gordon A wrote:
>>>> i made up the original 'Shagadelic' which sounds like it has
> morphed
>>> into something else. There is only 1 network diagram in the original
> - for
>>> the new system .there is/was a marking scheme and complete network
> diagram
>>> for the teacher too.
>>>> cheers Gordon
>>>>
>>>> ----------------
>>>> Gordon Poultney
>>>> Horsham College
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>
>>>> From: sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au on behalf of Maggie Iaquinto
>>>> Sent: Wed 5/3/08 9:14
>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>> Subject: RE: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ross
>>>>
>>>> Ross
>>>>
>>>> If you were using this practice SAC as the actual one, it would be
>>>> difficult to separate the marks for Task 1 (systems analysis and
>>>> design
>>>> - mistakenly called Task 2 here) from Task 2 (network diagram). You
>>>> are required to report the marks for the tasks clearly and
> discretely.
>>>>
>>>> Task 1 is 40 marks and Task 2 is 10 marks -- based on 50 for the
>>>> Outcome.
>>>> In the assessment sheet nearly 25 marks of the 50 are devoted to
> the
>>>> network diagram. This makes it tough to report accurately to VCAA
> just
>>>> what your students have received, in terms of the balance of 40/10.
>>>>
>>>> Task 2 (network diagram) must be for the proposed new system and
> this
>>>> document requires the student to diagram the current and the new.
>>>> Sure, you can do that but it isn't necessary.
>>>>
>>>> I notice also that there are marks given to presentation of the
> report.
>>>> IMHO I would put those marks into a more finely-grained assessment
> of
>>>> all the other Key Skills required in this Outcome.
>>>>
>>>> Just an opinion.
>>>>
>>>> Maggie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au
>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Mark Kelly
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 5 March 2008 8:36 AM
>>>> To: Year 12 Software Development Teachers' Mailing List
>>>> Subject: Re: [Year 12 SofDev] RE: Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>
>>>> If the task extended across the holidays, make sure the remaining
> part
>>>> is not given to them beforehand so they can't pre-produce stuff.
>>>>
>>>> Claudia Graham wrote:
>>>>> Hi Ross,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Re the practice SAC not sure who's that is so can't help there
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the use of the internet not something I have done or
> would
>>>> do,
>>>>> for me it would be too hard to 'patrol'. But as long as all
> students
>>>>> have the same conditions it doesn't matter (mind you I don't have a
>>>>> study design or assessment hand book beside me to check re
>>>>> conditions)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Same for the time frame, I assume you mean a lesson or two prior to
>>>> the
>>>>> holidays and then some after (or similar), not something I would do
>>>> just
>>>>> for authentication purposes. I would do it all in a few lessons; I
>>>> don't
>>>>> even like weekends between assessment lessons if I can help it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Claudia Graham
>>>>>
>>>>> Overnewton College
>>>>>
>>>>> Keilor
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --
>>>>> *From:* sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au
>>>>> [mailto:sofdev-bounces@edulists.com.au] *On Behalf Of *Ogilvie,
> Ross
>>>>> A
>>>>> *Sent:* 4 March 2008 7:50 PM
>>>>> *To:* sofdev@edulists.com.au
>>>>> *Subject:* Ross from Sunbury College
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In regard to SD I have a couple of questions.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. I have given my class a **Practice SAC** called **Shagadelic
>>>>> Carpets** (refer to attachment) (hope the author is OK with this).
>>>>> My
>>>>> question is....does anyone have the solutions so I can check if I
> am
>>>> on
>>>>> the right track.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. When I give my students the actual SAC:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> i. Can/should they access the internet.
>>>>>
>>>>> ii. Would there be a problem (in Vic) if the SAC extended
> through
>>>> the
>>>>> Term One holiday period into Term Two.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Kindest Regards
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> **Ross Ogilvie **
>>>>>
>>>>> **LSF ICT Leader **
>>>>>
>>>>> **Sunbury**** College**
>>>>>
>>>>> **30 Racecourse Rd****, Sunbury 3429**
>>>>>
>>>>> **Ph (W) 9744 1066 **
>>>>>
>>>>> ** (H) 54272843**
>>>>>
>>>>> **Bookmarks: http://del.icio.us/Ross1956**
>>>>>
>>>>> **Wiki: http://ross1956.wikispaces.com/**
>>>>> --
>>>>> Mark Kelly
>>>> --
>>>> Mark Kelly
>>> --
>>> Mark Kelly
>>
>> --
>> Mark Kelly
>> Manager - Information Systems
>> McKinnon Secondary College
>> McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
>> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085
>> School Phone +613 8520 9000
>> School Fax +613 95789253
>> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
>>
>> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> <http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au/>
>> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com <http://vceit.com/>
>> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>>
>> You'll know when we are officially a civilised race: our schools have
>> all the money they need and the Air Force has to run a chook raffle to
>> buy a new bomber.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://www.edulists.com.au <http://www.edulists.com.au/>
>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au <http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/> - Victorian
> Curriculum and Assessment Authority and
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> http://www.edulists.com.au
>> IT Software Development Mailing List kindly supported by
>> http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au - Victorian Curriculum and Assessment
> Authority and
>> http://www.vitta.org.au/vce/studies/infotech/softwaredevel3-4.html -
> VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc
>>
>>
>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.3/1306 - Release Date:
> 1/03/2008 5:41 PM
>
> --
> Mark Kelly
> Manager - Information Systems
> McKinnon Secondary College
> kel AT mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> McKinnon Rd, McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia
> Direct line / Voicemail: 8520 9085 Fax +613 9578 9253
>
> Webmaster - http://www.mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au
> IT Lecture notes: http://vceit.com
> Moderator: IT Applications Mailing List
>
> 1. Education is an admirable thing, but remember that nothing that is
> worth knowing can be taught - Oscar Wilde
> 2. I make trouble. You want some? - Mark Kelly
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