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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thank you, thank you, thank you </span><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span style='font-size:
11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><br>
That is so much easier and clearer. I think my kids have an actual chance at
understanding it now.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Laura<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au [mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Brendyn Hancock<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 18 October 2011 1:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] Normal forms<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Brilliant! Just Brilliant.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Thank you gents.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Brendyn<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au [mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Mark KELLY<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 18 October 2011 10:48 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] Normal forms<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-AU><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-AU>Many thanks
for the document, Robert. I've been looking for a while to find a neat example
of 1NF to 3NF progress.<br>
<br>
I've taken the liberty of adapting it into a slideshow...<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.vceit.com/slideshows/database-normalisation-example.ppt">http://www.vceit.com/slideshows/database-normalisation-example.ppt</a><br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
Mark<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-AU>On 17 October 2011 17:13, Timmer-Arends
<<a href="mailto:timmer@melbpc.org.au">timmer@melbpc.org.au</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-AU style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Hello
all</span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-AU style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>just
to chip in my 2-cents worth, yes, there might be different processes that lead
to a normalised db, but the definitions of 1NF, 2NF, and 3NF are pretty solid
and have been for at least 30 years.</span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-AU> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-AU style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>attached
is my version of the story</span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-AU> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-AU style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Regards</span><span
lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-AU style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Robert
T-A</span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-AU style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-----
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span lang=EN-AU
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:msc@luther.vic.edu.au" target="_blank"
title="msc@luther.vic.edu.au">Mark Scott</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-AU style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span lang=EN-AU style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:itapps@edulists.com.au"
target="_blank" title="itapps@edulists.com.au">Year 12 IT Applications
Teachers' Mailing List</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-AU style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span lang=EN-AU style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Monday, October 17, 2011 1:54 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-AU style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span lang=EN-AU style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] Normal forms<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-AU><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt'>Joseph</span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt'>Your explanation looks and sounds simple
enough but...</span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt'>There are at least half a dozen different
definitions of this process. (although the 1NF explanation is fairly
consistent) </span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt'>And, most importantly, we still do not know
how the VCAA (Hi Paula) defines the process of Normalisation and in particular
the first three forms.</span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt'>I’m expecting a very simple question on
this on the exam (hopefully just a 1NF question).</span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt'>Anything too complicated and this mailing
list will be on fire after the exam.</span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt'>thanks</span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt'>Mark Scott</span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt'>Luther College</span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt'>“Don’t water the rocks” Gerry Smith, River
Oaks Public School</span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
lang=EN-AU style='font-size:11.0pt'> </span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:36.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'> <a href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au"
target="_blank">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</a> [mailto:<a
href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au" target="_blank">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Joseph Papaleo<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 17 October 2011 1:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] Normal forms</span><span lang=EN-AU><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=EN-AU> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;
margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=EN-AU>Mark,<br>
In a nutshell, I've taught it as :<br>
<br>
1NF - tidy the table(s) up horizontally<br>
ie Fields contain only a single value eg Name: Mr Barney Rubble changes to <br>
Title: Mr<br>
Fname: Barney <br>
Sname: Rubble<br clear=all>
<br>
Remove repeating Groups (as per Mark's comments)<br>
<br>
<br>
2NF - Tidy the table(s) up Vertically<br>
Eliminate duplication in records down the table by using a Primary Key that
each record refers to.<br>
Continue to do this as often as required until duplication is removed from all
tables- students should see the need for a new table if there is duplication
with their own unique Primary Key.<br>
<br>
<br>
3NF - Make all fields in a table Mutually Exclusive<br>
ie, no field can rely on another. eg table may contain
"Quantity" and "Price", but it cannot contain "Total
Cost" as Total cost = Quantity x Price.<br>
<br>
I'm concerned that my students understand this, but they found it difficult to
do. Also concerned that I may have used an old or inferior resource.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Joseph Papaleo<br>
Ivanhoe Grammar School,<br>
Plenty Campus<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=EN-AU>On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 1:04 PM, Mark
KELLY <<a href="mailto:kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=EN-AU>Groan. I just spent another 30
minutes trying to explain the differences between 2NF and 3NF to my
dears. <br>
As usual, by the time I finished, I think they knew less than when I started.<br>
<br>
1NF is pretty clear cut...<br>
- no duplicate rows (i.e. identical records)<br>
- no multiple columns that contain the same *type* of data (e.g. child1,
child2, child3)<br>
- only one piece of data per field (e.g. don't store 2 phone numbers for
a person in the 'phone' field; put street address/suburb/postcode in separate
fields; in Filemaker, don't use repeating fields) <br>
<br>
But 2NF is really only a problem if you use *multiple* fields as a key (e.g..
using firstname + lastname + phone as a unique key) instead of using a unique
and arbitrary key field, like an ID number. <br>
I realise now that my kids have trouble absorbing 2NF because at no time in
their database education have I ever *mentioned* the possibility of using
multiple fields as the key. So explaining 2NF to them was a bit like warning
them not to walk using their ears - the concept had never even dawned on them
before. To them, having a non-key field that did not give information about
*all* of the key fields was a strange and scary possibility.<br>
<br>
3NF is, I think, relatively straight forward. Each non-key field must give information
about the key and not to another non-key field. Violation of 3NF is
usually pretty obvious because it looks "strange".<br>
<br>
After 2 slideshows, I'm still trying to work out a way to make it sound really
clear... next time, maybe. If anyone has hit on a sure-fire summary of
differentiating normal forms, I'd love to hear of it.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<span style='color:#888888'><br>
-- <br>
Mark Kelly<br>
Manager of ICT, Reporting, IT Learning Area<br>
McKinnon Secondary College<br>
McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia<br>
Direct line / Voicemail: <a href="tel:%2B613%208520%209085" target="_blank">+613
8520 9085</a>, Fax <a href="tel:%2B613%209578%209253" target="_blank">+613 9578
9253</a><br>
<a href="mailto:kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a><br>
VCE IT Lecture Notes: <a href="http://vceit.com" target="_blank">http://vceit.com</a><br>
Moderator: <a href="http://www.edulists.com.au/" target="_blank">IT
Applications Edulist</a><br>
<br>
Want a good time? Call 0112358. Ask for Mr Fibonacci.<br>
</span><br>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:36.0pt'><span lang=EN-AU> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span lang=EN-AU>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-AU>_______________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote>
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<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-AU><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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- FAQ, resources, subscribe, unsubscribe<br>
IT Applications Mailing List kindly supported by<br>
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- Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and<br>
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- VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-AU><br>
<br clear=all>
<br>
-- <br>
Mark Kelly<br>
Manager of ICT, Reporting, IT Learning Area<br>
McKinnon Secondary College<br>
McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia<br>
Direct line / Voicemail: +613 8520 9085, Fax +613 9578 9253<br>
<a href="mailto:kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a><br>
VCE IT Lecture Notes: <a href="http://vceit.com" target="_blank">http://vceit.com</a><br>
Moderator: <a href="http://www.edulists.com.au/" target="_blank">IT
Applications Edulist</a><br>
<br>
Want a good time? Call 0112358. Ask for Mr Fibonacci.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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Scanned by Sonar. <br>
Date: 2011-10-18 13:23:11.484<br>
From: bhancock@nagle.vic.edu.au<br>
To: itapps@edulists.com.au<br>
Profile: default_out<br>
Mail id: challenge-89045911009k5-0 <o:p></o:p></p>
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