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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks Litsa,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Perfect resource, have passed it on to the students.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au [mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Laura Fihelly<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 18 October 2011 3:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] Normal forms<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thank you, thank you, thank you
</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
That is so much easier and clearer. I think my kids have an actual chance at understanding it now.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Laura<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</a>
<a href="mailto:[mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au]">[mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au]</a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Brendyn Hancock<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 18 October 2011 1:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] Normal forms<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Brilliant! Just Brilliant.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thank you gents.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Brendyn<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</a>
<a href="mailto:[mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au]">[mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au]</a>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark KELLY<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 18 October 2011 10:48 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] Normal forms<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Many thanks for the document, Robert. I've been looking for a while to find a neat example of 1NF to 3NF progress.<br>
<br>
I've taken the liberty of adapting it into a slideshow...<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.vceit.com/slideshows/database-normalisation-example.ppt">http://www.vceit.com/slideshows/database-normalisation-example.ppt</a><br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
Mark<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On 17 October 2011 17:13, Timmer-Arends <<a href="mailto:timmer@melbpc.org.au">timmer@melbpc.org.au</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Hello all</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">just to chip in my 2-cents worth, yes, there might be different processes that lead to a normalised db, but the definitions of 1NF, 2NF, and 3NF are pretty solid and have been
for at least 30 years.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">attached is my version of the story</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Regards</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Robert T-A</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">----- Original Message -----
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#E4E4E4"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:msc@luther.vic.edu.au" target="_blank" title="msc@luther.vic.edu.au">
Mark Scott</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">To:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:itapps@edulists.com.au" target="_blank" title="itapps@edulists.com.au">
Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Sent:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> Monday, October 17, 2011 1:54 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Subject:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] Normal forms<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Joseph</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Your explanation looks and sounds simple enough but...</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">There are at least half a dozen different definitions of this process. (although the 1NF explanation is fairly consistent)
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">And, most importantly, we still do not know how the VCAA (Hi Paula) defines the process of Normalisation and in particular the first three forms.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I’m expecting a very simple question on this on the exam (hopefully just a 1NF question).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Anything too complicated and this mailing list will be on fire after the exam.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">thanks</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Mark Scott</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Luther College</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">“Don’t water the rocks” Gerry Smith, River Oaks Public School</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt">
<a href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au" target="_blank">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au" target="_blank">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Joseph Papaleo<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 17 October 2011 1:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] Normal forms</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:36.0pt">
Mark,<br>
In a nutshell, I've taught it as :<br>
<br>
1NF - tidy the table(s) up horizontally<br>
ie Fields contain only a single value eg Name: Mr Barney Rubble changes to <br>
Title: Mr<br>
Fname: Barney <br>
Sname: Rubble<br clear="all">
<br>
Remove repeating Groups (as per Mark's comments)<br>
<br>
<br>
2NF - Tidy the table(s) up Vertically<br>
Eliminate duplication in records down the table by using a Primary Key that each record refers to.<br>
Continue to do this as often as required until duplication is removed from all tables- students should see the need for a new table if there is duplication with their own unique Primary Key.<br>
<br>
<br>
3NF - Make all fields in a table Mutually Exclusive<br>
ie, no field can rely on another. eg table may contain "Quantity" and "Price", but it cannot contain "Total Cost" as Total cost = Quantity x Price.<br>
<br>
I'm concerned that my students understand this, but they found it difficult to do. Also concerned that I may have used an old or inferior resource.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Joseph Papaleo<br>
Ivanhoe Grammar School,<br>
Plenty Campus<o:p></o:p></p>
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On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 1:04 PM, Mark KELLY <<a href="mailto:kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt">
Groan. I just spent another 30 minutes trying to explain the differences between 2NF and 3NF to my dears.
<br>
As usual, by the time I finished, I think they knew less than when I started.<br>
<br>
1NF is pretty clear cut...<br>
- no duplicate rows (i.e. identical records)<br>
- no multiple columns that contain the same *type* of data (e.g. child1, child2, child3)<br>
- only one piece of data per field (e.g. don't store 2 phone numbers for a person in the 'phone' field; put street address/suburb/postcode in separate fields; in Filemaker, don't use repeating fields)
<br>
<br>
But 2NF is really only a problem if you use *multiple* fields as a key (e.g.. using firstname + lastname + phone as a unique key) instead of using a unique and arbitrary key field, like an ID number.
<br>
I realise now that my kids have trouble absorbing 2NF because at no time in their database education have I ever *mentioned* the possibility of using multiple fields as the key. So explaining 2NF to them was a bit like warning them not to walk using their ears
- the concept had never even dawned on them before. To them, having a non-key field that did not give information about *all* of the key fields was a strange and scary possibility.<br>
<br>
3NF is, I think, relatively straight forward. Each non-key field must give information about the key and not to another non-key field. Violation of 3NF is usually pretty obvious because it looks "strange".<br>
<br>
After 2 slideshows, I'm still trying to work out a way to make it sound really clear... next time, maybe. If anyone has hit on a sure-fire summary of differentiating normal forms, I'd love to hear of it.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<span style="color:#888888"><br>
-- <br>
Mark Kelly<br>
Manager of ICT, Reporting, IT Learning Area<br>
McKinnon Secondary College<br>
McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia<br>
Direct line / Voicemail: <a href="tel:%2B613%208520%209085" target="_blank">+613 8520 9085</a>, Fax
<a href="tel:%2B613%209578%209253" target="_blank">+613 9578 9253</a><br>
<a href="mailto:kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a><br>
VCE IT Lecture Notes: <a href="http://vceit.com" target="_blank">http://vceit.com</a><br>
Moderator: <a href="http://www.edulists.com.au/" target="_blank">IT Applications Edulist</a><br>
<br>
Want a good time? Call 0112358. Ask for Mr Fibonacci.<br>
</span><br>
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<a href="http://www.vitta.org.au" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au</a> - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
<a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au</a> - FAQ, resources, subscribe, unsubscribe<br>
IT Applications Mailing List kindly supported by<br>
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<a href="http://www.vitta.org.au" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au</a> - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc<o:p></o:p></p>
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_______________________________________________<br>
<a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au</a> - FAQ, resources, subscribe, unsubscribe<br>
IT Applications Mailing List kindly supported by<br>
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<a href="http://www.vitta.org.au" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au</a> - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc<o:p></o:p></p>
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<br>
-- <br>
Mark Kelly<br>
Manager of ICT, Reporting, IT Learning Area<br>
McKinnon Secondary College<br>
McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia<br>
Direct line / Voicemail: +613 8520 9085, Fax +613 9578 9253<br>
<a href="mailto:kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au" target="_blank">kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a><br>
VCE IT Lecture Notes: <a href="http://vceit.com" target="_blank">http://vceit.com</a><br>
Moderator: <a href="http://www.edulists.com.au/" target="_blank">IT Applications Edulist</a><br>
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Want a good time? Call 0112358. Ask for Mr Fibonacci.<o:p></o:p></p>
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Date: 2011-10-18 13:23:11.484<br>
From: <a href="mailto:bhancock@nagle.vic.edu.au">bhancock@nagle.vic.edu.au</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:itapps@edulists.com.au">itapps@edulists.com.au</a><br>
Profile: default_out<br>
Mail id: challenge-89045911009k5-0 <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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