<html><head><base href="x-msg://34/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><br></div><div>i believe others have already pointed at various things</div><div>i am not going to stick my neck out!!</div><div><br></div><div>Andrew<br><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Georgia; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Chalkboard">Andrew Shortell</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; ">Heidelberg Teaching Unit in 2011</span></font></div></div></span>
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<br><div><div>On 02/04/2011, at 1:01 PM, Mark Scott wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Georgia; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div ocsi="x"><div style="font-family: Tahoma; direction: ltr; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; "><div>Andrew</div><div><font size="2" face="tahoma"></font> </div><div><font size="2" face="tahoma">Please enlighten us all on your understanding of what the three Normal Forms entail.</font></div><div><font size="2" face="tahoma"></font> </div><div><font size="2" face="tahoma">Mark Scott</font></div><div dir="ltr"><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Tahoma"></font> </div><div id="divRpF934257" style="direction: ltr; "><hr tabindex="-1"><font color="#000000" size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Andrew Shortell [shortell@get2me.net]<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday, April 02, 2011 12:45 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] Sample exam questions andentity-relationship diagrams<br></font><br></div><div></div><div>Your analysis of past papers (and for me the insights gained from being an exam marker for years and vce teacher for 17 years and exam writer etc) would lead you to consider the purpose of the exam and what it means to have a "wasted" question --to set an exam with a "wasted" question is not worthwhile .... (think about it!!)<div><br></div><div>part of teaching unit 3 & 4 is all about understanding the exam and how the exam panel thinks and then acting on that knowledge. </div><div><br></div><div>Andrew</div><div><br></div><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span"><div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Chalkboard">Andrew Shortell</font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="3"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; ">Heidelberg Teaching Unit in 2011</span></font></div></div></span></div><br><div><div>On 02/04/2011, at 6:31 AM, Mark Scott wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span"><div><div style="font-family: Tahoma; direction: ltr; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 13px; "><div>Which could all be solved if VCAA shared there understanding of the three Normal Forms.</div><div><font size="2" face="tahoma"></font> </div><div><font size="2" face="tahoma">yours in frustration</font></div><div><font size="2" face="tahoma">Mark Scott</font></div><div><font size="2" face="tahoma">Luther College</font></div><div dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"></font> </div><div id="divRpF327446" style="direction: ltr; "><hr tabindex="-1"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au] On Behalf Of Mark KELLY [kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au]<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, April 01, 2011 6:40 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] Sample exam questions andentity-relationship diagrams<br></font><br></div><div></div><div>By the looks of the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vcaa/vce/studies/infotech/it-applications/publications/IT-Apps-samp.pdf" target="_blank"><font color="#000000">sample exam questions</font></a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>my ITA kids are going to be seriously troubled. I'm guessing a question like 3c is going to score about 0.01 marks out of 2 on average across the state. I wonder what the success rate would be amongst ITA teachers for that question... To get my kids to answer it well, I'd need to spend at least two periods (more like a week) just on normalisation theory - and frankly, it's not worth it.<br><br>Sorry for being grumpy about this, but this level of complexity really does not suit ITA. I don't mind normalisation being a bit of key knowledge, but how it might be examined seems excessive.<br><br>Woof!<br>Grumpy Mark K<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 1 April 2011 17:08, Timmer-Arends<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:timmer@melbpc.org.au">timmer@melbpc.org.au</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; "><div lang="EN-AU" bgcolor="#ffffff"><div><font size="2" face="Arial">Hello Mark</font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font size="2" face="Arial">I'm curious to know what these conflicting sources are.</font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font size="2" face="Arial">I've followed Robert H's link and the page one gets to doesn't actually define them but does describe a (simplified) process to get to each NF - and what one gets from the process does conform with NF defs. The links from this page do go to definitions and they are in agreement with other sources I have looked at.</font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font size="2" face="Arial">Mark K's quote is a definition of 2NF that conforms to other definitions.</font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font size="2" face="Arial">The only difference I can see between various versions I have read is the degree of mathematical/academic gobbledy-gook involved.</font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font size="2" face="Arial">1NF, 2NF and 3NF were defined way back in the seventies and because they were formed from a theoretical basis I don't think they are going to have changed all that much.</font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font size="2" face="Arial">About the only thing that seems to have changed greatly is the addition of another three NFs.</font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font size="2" face="Arial">I think the issue is a problem with the question, not with the consistency of the definitions. Decoding the definitions for consumption by students is of course another matter...</font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div><div><font size="2" face="Arial">Regards</font></div><div><font size="2" face="Arial">Robert T-A</font></div><div> </div><div> </div><div>----- Original Message -----</div><blockquote style="border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); border-left-width: 2px; border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 5px; padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px; "><div class="im"><div style="background-color: rgb(228, 228, 228); font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="msc@luther.vic.edu.au" href="mailto:msc@luther.vic.edu.au">Mark Scott</a></div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="itapps@edulists.com.au" href="mailto:itapps@edulists.com.au">Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List</a></div></div><div><div></div><div class="h5"><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, April 01, 2011 2:45 PM</div><div style="font: normal normal normal 10pt/normal arial; "><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] Sample exam questions andentity-relationship diagrams</div><div><br></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 11pt; ">Paula</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 11pt; "></span> </p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 11pt; ">This is good stuff but we are still struggling with Question 3c</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 11pt; "></span> </p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 11pt; ">Any chance of a VCAA definition of what actually goes in 1NF, 2NF and 3NF.</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 11pt; "></span> </p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 11pt; ">The definitions are different depending on which “source” you use.</span></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; font-size: 11pt; ">thanks<br>Mark Scott<br>Luther College</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; font-size: 11pt; ">PS I suppose we could all wait for the guru (Mark Kelly) to provide an answer.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-family: Wingdings; color: black; font-size: 11pt; ">J</span><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; font-size: 11pt; "><br><br><br></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: black; font-size: 11pt; "></span> </p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "><span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 11pt; "></span> </p><div><div style="border-bottom-width: medium; border-bottom-style: none; border-bottom-color: initial; border-left-width: medium; border-left-style: none; border-left-color: initial; padding-bottom: 0cm; padding-left: 0cm; padding-right: 0cm; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-style: solid; border-right-width: medium; border-right-style: none; border-right-color: initial; padding-top: 3pt; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; ">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[mailto:<a href="mailto:itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au">itapps-bounces@edulists.com.au</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Christophersen, Paula P<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, 1 April 2011 1:32 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[Year 12 IT Apps] Sample exam questions and entity-relationship diagrams</span></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; "></span> </p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; ">Dear colleagues</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; "></span> </p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; ">The examination specifications and some sample questions focusing on new content in the study design are now on the VCAA website:</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; "></span> </p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; "><a href="http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vcaa/vce/studies/infotech/it-applications/publications/IT-Apps-samp.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vcaa/vce/studies/infotech/it-applications/publications/IT-Apps-samp.pdf</a></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; "></span> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; "></span> </p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; ">Structurally the examination remains the same – two sections: Section A multiple choice; Section B short and extended responses.</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; "></span> </p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; ">I draw your attention to a couple of matters in the sample questions:</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 93pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Symbol; font-size: 9pt; "><span>·<span style="font: normal normal normal 7pt/normal 'Times New Roman'; "> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; ">Question 4 focuses on an entity relationship diagram – this hopefully clarifies recent concerns that have been raised.</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 93pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Symbol; font-size: 9pt; "><span>·<span style="font: normal normal normal 7pt/normal 'Times New Roman'; "> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; ">Question 7 illustrates one way in which the examination can deal with the choice of different software in Unit 4, Area of Study 1. Here a common question is presented, and students select the software tool to explain their answer.</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 93pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Symbol; font-size: 9pt; "><span>·<span style="font: normal normal normal 7pt/normal 'Times New Roman'; "> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; ">Question 9 is an example of an extended response (worth 8 marks) with prompts to guide answers</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 93pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family: Symbol; font-size: 9pt; "><span>·<span style="font: normal normal normal 7pt/normal 'Times New Roman'; "> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; ">Question 12 is an example of the scope of a question on RDBMS – the focus can only extent to what is covered in Unit 3. Again it illustrates an extended response with prompts</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; "></span> </p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; ">Regards</span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; ">Paula</span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; "></span> </p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; ">Paula Christophersen</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; ">ICT Curriculum Manager</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; ">VCAA</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; ">41 St Andrews Place</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; ">EAST MELBOURNE 3002</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; ">(03) 9651 4378</span><span lang="EN-US"></span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 36pt; "><span lang="EN-US"></span> </p></div></div></div><br><p style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; "></p></blockquote></div><br clear="all"></blockquote></div><br>--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>Mark Kelly<br>Manager of ICT, Reporting, IT Learning Area<br>McKinnon Secondary College<br>McKinnon Rd McKinnon 3204, Victoria, Australia<br>Direct line / Voicemail: +613 8520 9085, Fax +613 9578 9253<br><a href="mailto:kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au">kel@mckinnonsc.vic.edu.au</a><br>VCE IT Lecture Notes:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://vceit.com" target="_blank">http://vceit.com</a><br>Moderator: IT Applications Edulist<br><br><font size="+0">All generalisations are false, except this one.</font><br><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br><a href="http://www.edulists.com.au" target="_blank">http://www.edulists.com.au</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>- FAQ, resources, subscribe, unsubscribe<br>IT Applications Mailing List kindly supported by<br><a href="http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vce/studies/infotech/itapplications3-4.html" target="_blank">http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vce/studies/infotech/itapplications3-4.html</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>- Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and<br><a href="http://www.vitta.org.au" target="_blank">http://www.vitta.org.au</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc</div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br><a href="http://www.edulists.com.au">http://www.edulists.com.au</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>- FAQ, resources, subscribe, unsubscribe<br>IT Applications Mailing List kindly supported by<br><a href="http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vce/studies/infotech/itapplications3-4.html">http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vce/studies/infotech/itapplications3-4.html</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>- Victorian Curriculum and Assessment Authority and<br><a href="http://www.vitta.org.au">http://www.vitta.org.au</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> - VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association Inc</div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>