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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Ros,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Perhaps you did start a
bonfire!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>If so then good<FONT size=5> <FONT
face=Wingdings>J</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>The issue needs to be
discussed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>It has been really good to hear all
the different opinions and </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>as someone said </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>here we have all these people working
together as virtual teams to sort out the problem.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>So hopefully we can now communicate -
and I mean really communicate - so that both sides - the techs and the teachers
- can understand where they are both coming from.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Bad English! Sorry!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Robert Hind (Semi-retired)<BR>Ashwood
and Traralgon<BR><A
href="mailto:robert@yinnar.com">robert@yinnar.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ros.meadows@gmail.com href="mailto:ros.meadows@gmail.com">Ros
Meadows</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=itapps@edulists.com.au
href="mailto:itapps@edulists.com.au">Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 08, 2008 6:28
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] RE: Google
docs issue</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=Calibri>I am sorry if I started a
bonfire!<BR>>From reading everyone's posts, there are obviously very
varying opinions.<BR><BR>Ultimately you only need to look at what Roland has
achieved at Westall, in a school which is not rich (in monetary terms), and
must deal with the same security issues as the rest of us. Yet given the
opportunity to adopt a new idea, application or online website, Roland does
not question with "Will this work? "What is the educational value of this?"
"Will this compromise the security of my system?" or "will this be adopted by
students and/or staff?"<BR><BR>No, he thinks "that would be cool" and
therefore dives headfirst into the latest and greatest "stuff" on offer,
giving his students and staff choices in what operating system, software,
search engine and online apps they use.<BR><BR>I admire and envy you so much
Roland - you create more educational opportunities for your students by giving
them more options, than other schools who have so many more (financial)
resources.<BR><BR>Someone said to me at the conference 'Microsoft, the drug
dealers of the software kingdom - "your first hit is on us kiddies"' - and so
our kids pirate MS software so they can have it at home, because they think
they need it, but can't afford it - not good! Show them there are legal and
free alternatives such as Google docs or Open Office and they won't be guilty
of software piracy!!<BR><BR>Cheers<BR>Ros<BR></FONT><BR>Timmer-Arends wrote:
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>>However
in schools this was not always the case - individual teachers and other
staff seemed to believe that their individual views represented that of the
entire school, and IT staff were pulled in all directions, often
contradictory, After unblocking one website for one staff member, they'd get
another complaining that their kids could now waste time on that same
website. After installing some piece of software based on one request, theyd
have someone else asking him why staff were being confused with multiple
offerings. You can probably see his dilemma.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>>His view that he was paid by the school to
meet the school's needs - but the school's needs were not always clearly
defined</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>He commented that in some schools the IT support people ended up
taking the lead because there seemed to be nobody else willing to manage a
process that reached a school-level view on priority and strategy. He
thought this was a dangerous situation. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ken, has your IT technical manager been
speaking to our IT technical manager? One of the biggest frustrations our
guy has is that he feels he is there to serve the needs of the school
community, but that the said community doesn't seem to have a clue where it
wants to go with all this IT staff. And that is a curriculum issue, not an
IT issue.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It sounds to me like Royce is taking a tough
but perfectly understandable line on all this. Not wishing to put words into
his mouth, but something like "show me the evidence that this will improve
student learning, get the school to agree with you, and then come see me
with your proposal"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Robert T-A</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=kenjprice@gmail.com href="mailto:kenjprice@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">ken price</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=itapps@edulists.com.au href="mailto:itapps@edulists.com.au"
moz-do-not-send="true">Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Monday, December 08, 2008 10:05 AM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] RE: Google docs issue</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I agree, the analysis of how IT meets organisational needs is valid
as it is part of the course.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'll tell a short tale of a very skilled IT technical manager
at a school where I taught. He had spent several years working
for large national organisations as IT manager. He was (and still is)
very keen to make IT work for the school in the best possible way. He is a
very valuable school IT manager.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>After a few months working at the school he made an interesting
observation about schools vs his past employer which might be
relevant here.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>He noticed that in the large organisations, there was strong
governance over ICT decisions and investment. Decisions were made/endorsed
by senior management based on needs and suggestions put forward by all
staff (including IT support). It was thus very clear what the organisation
wanted in terms of ICT. However in schools this was not always the case -
individual teachers and other staff seemed to believe that their
individual views represented that of the entire school, and IT staff were
pulled in all directions, often contradictory, After unblocking one
website for one staff member, they'd get another complaining that their
kids could now waste time on that same website. After installing some
piece of software based on one request, theyd have someone else asking him
why staff were being confused with multiple offerings. You can probably
see his dilemma.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>His view that he was paid by the school to meet the school's needs -
but the school's needs were not always clearly defined. He felt that if
staff in most large organisations directly approached their IT support
unit demanding their own way, they'd be referred very quickly to the IT
decision-making committee. If they did it more than once, things would get
serious for them. Similarly, he saw that if his IT support staff ignored
the priorities set by the organisation and did whatever they thought was a
good idea or interesting, their job would be in jeopardy.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>He commented that in some schools the IT support people ended up
taking the lead because there seemed to be nobody else willing to manage a
process that reached a school-level view on priority and strategy. He
thought this was a dangerous situation. It relates directly to Anne's
quote from the Unit3 syllabus.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So perhaps there is another issue here - the nature of schools and
how they reach decisions on how they want to use IT,innovate, etc, and how
these decisions are informed by educational and technical issues?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The IT manager was unsure if schools are inherently
different to other large organisations, or if there is something else
here. I haven't spoken to him for some time, so I'll get in touch and see
what his views are now,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Perhaps we can get some examples of how schools manage this
school-level decision making and how it translates into the work that
"techies" do? Perhaps they would be useful as case studies for
students?</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Ken Price
<DIV>DoE Tasmania</DIV>
<DIV>President, TASITE <A href="http://www.tasite.edu.au/"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.tasite.edu.au</A><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 8:10 AM, <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:murch@tpg.com.au"
moz-do-not-send="true">murch@tpg.com.au</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">This
discussion may have gone on long enough but I would like to argue that
it is not inappropriate to<BR>this list or OT as it embraces the very
nature of the ITA course. From the summary of the VCAA
course<BR>design.<BR>"Unit 3 focuses on how individuals or organisations
use ICT to solve information problems. This unit<BR>focuses on how ICT
is used by organisations to solve ongoing information problems and in
the<BR>strategies to protect the integrity of data and security of
information."<BR>I think that this is a realistic problem that teachers
and technicians on the list are looking at and are<BR>discussing. It is
one that will be used for my students next year as they will see the
relevance of such a<BR>problem as it pertains to their education. It has
been interesting to hear the opinions of the various<BR>people involved
in organisations - technicians, educationalists etc And best of all,
here is a virtual team<BR>in action trying to solve the problem.<BR>So
thank you to everyone, and I in no way meant to be an egotistical
contributor, simply someone<BR>seeking a solution.<BR>
<DIV class=Ih2E3d>Anne Mirtschin<BR>Hawkesdale P12
College<BR>_______________________________________________<BR></DIV>
<DIV>
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<SPAN class=style1><SPAN class=style2>Roslyn Meadows <BR><SPAN
class=style5>TONS</SPAN><BR><A href="mailto:ros.meadows@gmail.com"><SPAN
class=style4>ros.meadows@gmail.com</SPAN></A> <BR><SPAN class=style3>Bentleigh
Secondary College <BR>Vivien Street, East Bentleigh, 3165 <BR>Phone 9579
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