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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bill</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>engagement != learning !=
constructivism</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Just the existence if engagement does not mean good
learning. Engagement is a precursor to good learning. Engagement is best
achieved through a relevant and authentic challenge and the right
tools which give <FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>"flow" or
a <EM>"Balance between ability level and challenge "</EM> </FONT><A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29"><FONT
face="Times New Roman"
size=3>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29</FONT></A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What is being engaged in must require
worthwhile learning. </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>The students must have
sufficient competency in the domain, often achieved through direct instruction,
to meet the challenge. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Constructivism is a little different. Learners must
construct their own understandings in their own way. Multiple representations of
the subject help learners assemble their own internal mental models of
the subject. Good constructivist learning is engaging because it can induce the
rewarding psychological sensation of "flow".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>You quote <A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/post/PLNK14F2YOSI9OWBM" target=_blank><FONT
face="Times New Roman"
size=3>http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/post/PLNK14F2YOSI9OWBM </FONT></A><BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3>where the results for situated learning were
comparable even though the class was more engaged .</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This still leaves the questions: what was
being tested and are we really testing for the outcomes we want?
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Education generally tests for the outcomes that are
easy to measure rather than the outcomes that are desired. Higher order outcomes
(in Blooms Taxonomy) are generally harder to define and harder to measure. We
want to produce versatile thinkers and problem solvers but the tests were
not measuring this. The Nintendo group may have had better outcomes in the
higher order skills but the testing described is unlikely to measure
this.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Tony</DIV></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=billkerr@gmail.com href="mailto:billkerr@gmail.com">Bill Kerr</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=itapps@edulists.com.au
href="mailto:itapps@edulists.com.au">Year 12 IT Applications Teachers' Mailing
List</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=forster@ozonline.com.au
href="mailto:forster@ozonline.com.au">Tony Forster</A> ; <A
title=artichoke@ihug.co.nz href="mailto:artichoke@ihug.co.nz">Artichoke</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 04, 2007 2:45
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Year 12 IT Apps] What
Future IT? (Charmaine Taylor)</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>I
was holding off from commenting here but it seems that not everyone has gone
into holiday mode, so I'll say something. <BR><BR>If we look at this
list:<BR><BR>- motivation<BR>- engagement<BR>- inclusive learning<BR>-
discovery learning <BR>- constructivism<BR>- constructionism<BR><BR>I don't
think these terms mean the same thing but at least some are being used
interchangeably <BR><BR>Most of the recent research I have seen is in the
opposite direction of what Charmaine says - <BR><BR>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 40px">"Fantastic example of constructivist learning
Keith! It's what the recent educational research has discovered is needed to
engage students so that they achieve better learning" <BR></DIV><BR>eg. I
wrote a response to one such study that claimed that minimal guidance during
instruction does not work - but there are many such studies around<BR><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2006/10/minimal-guidance-during-instruction.html"
target=_blank>http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2006/10/minimal-guidance-during-instruction.html</A><BR>(link
in that blog to a critical discussion about discovery learning - wag the dog
entry on artichokes blog)<BR><BR>I would like there to be a smooth connection
between increased motivation / engagement and increased learning but the
research history suggests to me that it is far from smooth - this includes the
old logo research <BR><BR>It could be that motivation increases but learning
does not necessarily increase or is equivalent or is less cf an instructionist
scenario. It's nice when students are motivated but how do we really know that
long term learning has increased? <BR><BR>I think the research undertaken by
the game maker cluster showed increases in motivation, fun, engagement for
some (not all) students but we didn't really produce any hard evidence about
increased learning - some anecdotal yes, hard evidence, no <BR><BR>Here is a
post from mark guzdial<BR><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/post/PLNK14F2YOSI9OWBM"
target=_blank>http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/post/PLNK14F2YOSI9OWBM
</A><BR>about a parallel study comparable to keith's- two ways of teaching
intro to computer systems, one formal and one real life - the results for the
learning were comparable even though the real life class was more engaged
<BR><BR>I support constructionist learning in theory and practice but think we
need to be careful not to make wholesale claims for fuzzy "discovery
learning". These issues are complex, there is good and bad "discovery
learning". When the evidence is *not* forthcoming for extravagent claims then
that actually acts as fuel for those pushing the opposite agenda - back to
basics instructionism. <BR><BR>-- <BR>Bill Kerr<BR><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/"
target=_blank>http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/</A><BR><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://www.users.on.net/%7Ebillkerr/" target=_blank></A><BR>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 9/28/07, <B class=gmail_sendername>Roland
Gesthuizen</B> <<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:rgesthuizen@gmail.com" target=_blank>rgesthuizen@gmail.com
</A>> wrote:</SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Too
right Kevork! There is a lot to be said for constructivist learning,
generating and using data that the students have "real ownership' of. .. my
lot struggled through charting last year until I let them develop a plan for
their school formal. It was fascinating to watch the school captain walk
about the room, correcting the other plans to keep them on time and on
budget. It was her job to actually organise the 'real' senior student formal
and in the process she was able to recruit some helpers. For our practice
outcomes we covered the Scout Mudbash and the chap who ran the local pizza
shop next to our school. <BR><BR>Of course, as eductors it doesnt mean that
we sit back and watch. We still have a very important role to structure
discussions, dig up supporting resources and give the odd tap on the
steering wheel to get things back on track. <BR><BR>Regards Roland
<DIV><SPAN><BR><BR>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 28/09/2007, <B class=gmail_sendername>Kevork
Krozian</B> <<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:Kroset@novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au" target=_blank>
Kroset@novell1.fhc.vic.edu.au</A>> wrote:</SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Hi
Guys,<BR><BR>Fabulous examples from Charmaine and Keith ..!!!<BR>Couldn't
agree more ! <BR><BR>I am the last living IPM teacher at my school and I
had struggled with Project Management in terms of engagement. The students
didn't need to build a house or landscape a block of land but they did
want to go on a schoolies holiday at the end of the year ! <BR><BR>So we
had as our project aim " organising the schoolies holiday". Some of the
tasks included:<BR> 1. Selecting members of the
group to holiday together<BR> 2. Deciding on a
location for the holiday <BR> 3. Selecting a
property at which to stay<BR> 4. Collecting money
for a deposit<BR> 5. Signing the
lease/contract<BR> 6. etc etc<BR><BR>It seemed to
really fire them up so there it is again. Engagement when it is relevant
or they have a direct input in the process and the direction of the
learning. <BR><BR>PS . Will this encourage you to perhaps put off your
retirement Keith ??!!<BR><BR>Take Care<BR>Kevork<BR><BR>>>>
Charmaine Taylor <<A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="mailto:tigeroz@alphalink.com.au" target=_blank>
tigeroz@alphalink.com.au</A> > 27/09/2007 9:02 pm
>>><BR>Fantastic example of constructivist learning
Keith! It's what the<BR>recent educational research has
discovered is needed to engage students<BR>so that they achieve better
learning. We need more of this. <BR><BR>Charmaine Taylor<BR><BR><BR>Keith
Richardson wrote:<BR><BR>>Charmaine - your voice is like music in my
ears! "...from the point of<BR>>view of the problem to be solved..." is
the secret to highly motivated <BR>>behaviour across all subject areas,
not just computing.<BR>>Here is a specific example that will make my
point:<BR>>I tried an interesting parallel experiment with my two Yr 7
science<BR>>classes.<BR>>With the first I designed a logical series
of practical experiments <BR>>involving measurement, mathematical
calculations, graphing of results<BR>>all investigating the operation
of levers. I thought the design was<BR>>fantastic, but the kids did not
get involved at all. "Boring!" was their <BR>>verdict.<BR>>With the
second class, I showed them a desktop-trebuchet I had made
and<BR>>challenged them to design and build one themselves that would
throw a<BR>>small rubber ring over 3 metres. They were given a period
and heaps of <BR>>equipment to select from. Periodically I stopped them
to discuss safety<BR>>telling them that over the centuries of use many
trebuchet operators<BR>>were killed, and I did not want to add to the
number here! The classes <BR>>enthusiasm was staggering, and I enjoyed
watching them make mistake<BR>>after mistake but edging towards success
as they worked at making a<BR>>LEVER solve this problem for them. I
guarantee that their instinctive <BR>>understanding of how to make use
of a lever will stay with them for<BR>>life, and many of them will make
actual use of this wisdom in the<BR>>future.<BR>><BR>>So,
Charmaine, I agree with you.<BR>><BR>>Regards, Keith<BR>>Keith
Richardson<BR>><BR>>_______________________________________________<BR>><A
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Information Technology Teachers Association
Inc<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR clear=all><BR></SPAN></DIV>-- <BR>Roland
Gesthuizen - ICT Coordinator - Westall Secondary College <BR><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://www.westallsc.vic.edu.au"
target=_blank>http://www.westallsc.vic.edu.au</A><BR><BR>"Never doubt that a
small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed
it is the only thing that ever has." --Margaret Mead
_______________________________________________ <SPAN><BR><A
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href="http://www.vitta.org.au" target=_blank>http://www.vitta.org.au </A>-
VITTA Victorian Information Technology Teachers Association
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